Massachusetts passes sweeping climate law

[ABMax24]

What is happening in Europe has nothing to do with "closing all traditional power plants".

What!?

France and Germany closing nuclear plants in favor of intermittent renewables doesn't have an effect?

Germany closing coal powerplants fuelled by domestic brown coal doesn't have an effect?

Doing both the above and then building natural gas peaker plants increasingly fuelled by Russian gas doesn't have an effect?

Interesting...

 

[stoveliker]

The point is they had all working well, after closing nuclear and coal plants.
The issue is the nat. gas deliveries due to Russia.

It is NOT the closing of traditional plants that caused this. The primary cause is Russia. The energy system did get less resilient as a consequence of the choices made, but the choices made did not cause this.

 

[stoveliker]

And France did not close nuclear plants for renewables. It has temporary closures for maintenance.

 

[ABMax24]

Relying on a less than friendly neighbour for such a critical commodity is questionable at best. Especially after previous agressions in the region.

I hope that's the one lesson we've learned during Covid and now the Ukraine war. It's worth the extra cost to develop domestic production/manufacturing or at the very least, form trading arrangement with strong allies.

 

[sloeffle]

What is happening in Europe has nothing to do with "closing all traditional power plants".

Germany went all in on renewables over the last numbers of years. If that plan is working out so well, why are they keeping their nuclear plants online then ?

Germany to keep two nuclear plants available as a backup and burn coal as it faces an energy crisis brought on by war and climate change

The German government announced its plans to keep the Isar 2 and Neckarwestheim nuclear power plants on a kind of backup status.

www.cnbc.com

 

[stoveliker]

The statement I responded to seemed to imply renewables were to blame. That is not the case. Not in Europe and not in the hypothetical case of the US.
Not closing nat. gas plants would not have made a d*mn difference, because the gas in Europe mostly (not all) comes from Russia. Not having closed those plants, and thus being even MORE reliant on nat. gas would have resulted in a far bigger problem now. Of course closing coal plants was a larger thing than closing nat. gas plants.

The coal problem is different. The problem with that right now for the existing plants is that transportation is a problem due to low river water levels.

(And as I said, the nuclear power in France is not down because of renewables, or down because of political choices, it's down because of maintenance, part of which was postponed during Covid.)

Nuclear in Germany should not have been closed (imo; I'm pro nuclear power; better to have pollution localized in 1 cubic mile (e.g. underground) than in all of our atmosphere (CO2 and other stuff)). There are in fact voices to reverse the "close nukes" decisions right now.

I maintain that the problem is not conventional plants closing, the problem is certainly not renewables (glad to have them when other supplies are problematic!), the problem is Russia. Period. And the uncertainty that a transition brings with it, includes a smaller resilience, temporarily. That is normal too. It just sucks that Russia did this now.

 

[tlc1976]

My electric co-op has been taking about a rate increase next year. They just published their plans in the magazine they send to all their members.

The plan is to increase the rate by $.007/kWh. Yes less than 1 cent. From $.108 to $.115.

And increase the fixed rate by $2, from $32.21 to $34.21.

No change to any of the other billing categories. Sounds like peanuts to me. Especially since something like 12 years ago, they lowered the price per kWh by 1c, when they added the fixed fee. This was due to the large amount of seasonal residents we have, who use little to no power for most of the year, while expecting year round service and line maintenance. While giving the full time residents less of the burden.

We don’t have time of use rates. More power is usually used at night when it’s dark and colder. The AC season is short, and not even used by everyone. I have no need for it.

I’ve had this co-op at every house I’ve lived in, and I was born here. They’ve been very good with service. Never seen any dirty tricks like the power companies of some of my coworkers. Not only that but my co-op has been getting fiber internet to rural folks who the local monopoly has refused to service for decades. I hope they can keep going as they’ve been for all this time.

 

[woodgeek]

Relying on a less than friendly neighbour for such a critical commodity is questionable at best. Especially after previous agressions in the region.

I hope that's the one lesson we've learned during Covid and now the Ukraine war. It's worth the extra cost to develop domestic production/manufacturing or at the very least, form trading arrangement with strong allies.

Absolutely. The Germans adhered to a philosophy that trade integration would lead to lasting peace. I guess that didn't work out, just as it failed to do 100 years ago. You could definitely argue that the 2014 Crimea invasion was the only warning that they should've needed. You can add it to the boneheaded decision to close their nukes, while keeping their brown coal plants cranking, after breaking the bank on solar (when they have a very poor solar resource and before solar was a cheap as now).

Fiasco after fiasco after fiasco in Germany.

The same 'trade leads to peace' attitude was at play with putting China in the WTO. We'll see if that pans out better.

We can say that the US (under the previous AND current administrations) has gotten serious about using govt and industrial policy to reshore and friend-shore critical material and component supply chains. This slow process is finally starting to build up steam, but will take a decade.

 

[SpaceBus]

They are blips. And probably should inform policy. Not anything we need rush to action over. With the huge exception that the the design temps that generating stations in Texas were built to were completely inadequate and they knew it. But 10 years ago I don’t think anyone would have guessed Russians would invade a sovereign nation. As for Texas, that really is just a Texas thing. No other energy market in the US operates like that. It will get record cold again. More probable is record heat. Systems will fail and backups need to be thoughtfully engineered. Coal is will go the way if the horse. Some places it will hang on longer. They all see the writing on the wall. Ohioans emissions that four over new England were a catalyst to a lot the earlier regulations.

Maine is almost the same as Texas as far as the power market goes.

 

[woodgeek]

Maine is almost the same as Texas as far as the power market goes.

I suspect that the equipment in ME is designed to operate in below freezing temps, unlike the gas fired equipment and pipelines in TX.

 

[peakbagger]

Yup, first power plant I worked in in Texas was an eye opener compared to the northern plants I worked on. I did a peformance test on a couple of gas peakers and there was one control/maintenance/electrical building for the two turbines and everything else was outdoors and all the piping was above ground with no insulation. I worked in few biomass plants in CA that were the same, A structural frame to hold the parts in place with lots of open catwalks. My favorite was in Northern CA where I could watch the surfers out on the Pacific across the dunes from the firing deck of the boiler.

 

[sloeffle]

The statement I responded to seemed to imply renewables were to blame. That is not the case. Not in Europe and not in the hypothetical case of the US.

Since I made the statement I'll infer where I was going with it.

I wasn't blaming anything on renewables, where I was placing the blame is that it feels like we are going all in on renewables but there's not a solid backup plan if something happens. I think what happened in Texas, and what's going on in Europe now should of taught us that we need a mix of everything to keep the lights on 24x7 until battery / storage tech has come up to speed. Buying NG from a non-friendly country doesn't feel like a solid plan, or a backup plan IMHO. And the last time I checked, coal didn't freeze.

 

[SpaceBus]

I suspect that the equipment in ME is designed to operate in below freezing temps, unlike the gas fired equipment and pipelines in TX.

I meant as far as pricing and regulation, not the physical equipment.

 

[begreen]

Renewables are great to add to the mix, but not always great for baseload power unless there is a major hydro or geothermal system to provide this power. Solar, wind, & tidal are all intermittent sources of power. Some good solutions can sometimes be employed to store excess renewable energy if feasible, but for now nuclear is the cleanest source for baseload power until we develop better technical solutions and consume less power.

 

[Ashful]

Renewables are great to add to the mix, but not always great for baseload power unless there is a major hydro or geothermal system to provide this power. Solar, wind, & tidal are all intermittent sources of power. Some good solutions can sometimes be employed to store excess renewable energy if feasible, but for now nuclear is the cleanest source for baseload power until we develop better technical solutions and consume less power.

I think you had mentioned a past in boating, begreen. I'm not sure if this has come up here or elsewhere before, but the bays, inlets, sounds, rivers that make up the intracoastal waterway would seem to have theoretical potential to provide more constant base load, than I think most imagine. I say this because bay and sound tide tables lag those of inlets and oceans, such that the slack water period at one location could be a peak velocity period in a neighboring region just a few miles up the coast. So, while offshore tidal generation may indeed suffer from periodic productivity, I'd think there's at least some opportunity to moderate that with (perhaps less powerful) intercoastal tides.

 

[begreen]

At our high latitude, we have strong tidal changes. A local county power utility did a deep study of strong tidal currents in Puget Sound. To the disappointment of many, it came to the conclusion that it was not economically feasible. That was in 2006. Since then, other countries have been developing newer technology and hopefully, this huge source of power can be successfully tapped.

Snohomish County PUD Cancels Tidal Power Project

Snohomish County Public Utility District has pulled the plug on its high-profile research project to develop technology that harnesses the tides to…

www.knkx.org

I see that the EIA just updated info on tidal projects, so maybe there will be some progress if environmental programs are not scuppered as Reagan did back in 1980.

Tidal power - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

Tidal power for electricity generation and locations of tidal power facilities around the world.

www.eia.gov

 

[ABMax24]

The Bay of Fundy has been a test bed for tidal power for some time. Lots of energy to be produced there. Unfortunately it seems most equipment that has been installed there has been destroyed in short order by the tides.

 

[begreen]

Yes, the Bay of Fundy is at a similar latitude as upper Puget Sound. Didn't a system there (Annapolis?) run for about 30 yrs.? The currents here can be very strong. Local topography doesn't lend itself well to a barrage system so tidal stream generation is what was researched. Unfortunately, the costs ballooned to the point of putting the PUD in jeopardy and congress wouldn't approve funding to help the project. For this area, I wonder if something like the decommissioned SeaGen project would be feasible.

SeaGen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[stoveliker]

Tidal flow energy harvesting can be quite constant; while maximum tide is a point in time, the flow is more continuous. Though of course varying in speed.

I would be more concerned with the effect on (PNW: Salmon?) wildlife.
Also, the best harvesting happens when the flow is quite restricted, i.e. the whole width of an inlet is used (so there are less parasitic flows) - and that is not great for (commercial) traffic on the water.

Great energy source, but doing it right does require some careful thinking. (A common issue in change...)

 

[begreen]

This is what happens at Deception Pass when a foolish sailor tries to buck the tide.

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[stoveliker]

That's some energy right there!

 

[begreen]

Bucking the tide there is a good way to burn up a lot of fuel.

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[ABMax24]

Yes, the Bay of Fundy is at a similar latitude as upper Puget Sound. Didn't a system there (Annapolis?) run for about 30 yrs.? The currents here can be very strong. Local topography doesn't lend itself well to a barrage system so tidal stream generation is what was researched. Unfortunately, the costs ballooned to the point of putting the PUD in jeopardy and congress wouldn't approve funding to help the project. For this area, I wonder if something like the decommissioned SeaGen project would be feasible.

SeaGen - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yes that's true. I guess I was referencing the underwater turbines that looked like mini windmills, none of them seemed to last.

Bucking the tide there is a good way to burn up a lot of fuel.

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Lots of power there.

Interesting example for this thread though, the fuel hungry boats didn't have an issue...

 

[PassionForFire&Water]

Since I made the statement I'll infer where I was going with it.

I wasn't blaming anything on renewables, where I was placing the blame is that it feels like we are going all in on renewables but there's not a solid backup plan if something happens. I think what happened in Texas, and what's going on in Europe now should of taught us that we need a mix of everything to keep the lights on 24x7 until battery / storage tech has come up to speed. Buying NG from a non-friendly country doesn't feel like a solid plan, or a backup plan IMHO. And the last time I checked, coal didn't freeze.

A mix of everything we have available, that is exactly right!

 

[Brian26]

National Grid customers in Massachusetts are getting one hell of a rate increase. Looks like its going from .30 kwh to .49 kwh?

Many Mass. Customers Will See a 64% Increase in Their Electric Bills This Winter

National Grid said the monthly bill of a typical residential customer using 600 kilowatt-hours will increase from $179 last winter to about $293 this winter, an increase of about 64%. National Grid said the delivery portion of electric bills will basically remain flat.

Many Mass. Customers Will See a 64% Increase in Their Electric Bills This Winter

National Grid customers are expected to see a 64% increase in their electric bills this winter, the company announced Wednesday. In a press release titled “Winter Customer Savings Initiative,” the power company announced that natural gas prices are expected to be significantly higher this winter...

www.nbcboston.com