DevilsBrew
Minister of Fire
- Apr 21, 2013
- 687
Because this site is the most entertaining stove forum going. It is very impressive.
Masonry Heater vs Wood stove
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Because this site is the most entertaining stove forum going. It is very impressive.
Got several ocean front lots in Arizona to sell ya.
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Augie
Feeling the Heat
LOL.. 500-600 degrees on the inside of a wood stove.. Mine is usually close to 600 on the outside, my flue temps are in the 800-1000 from time to time... I'm gonna guess down there in the middle where the HOT is.. it's a bit warmer than 500-600. Fire temperature is a function of fuel and air, not the container.
I love the thought as much as the next guy, but the truth of it is, the things require VERY specific building plans to be INCORPORATED into a home... They are not very easy to retrofit. I did the calc's once.. To heat our home we would give up almost 25% of our cubic footage, and have to build a new foundation/footer, inside our already finished basement to support the 23 TONS of mass recommended. And we have not even discussed cost. And while you can claim "easy DIY" all you want, VERY few people are willing/able to gut the center of their home to, reinforce/move/modify every truss, stringer and joist in the center of said home.
But as others have said, continue to study, research. and then document document document. Prove the world wrong. You are right. Sometimes it happens.
But not often.
OH.. and check local codes/restrictions before you cut that hole in the center of your roof.. just in case.
I love the thought as much as the next guy, but the truth of it is, the things require VERY specific building plans to be INCORPORATED into a home... They are not very easy to retrofit. I did the calc's once.. To heat our home we would give up almost 25% of our cubic footage, and have to build a new foundation/footer, inside our already finished basement to support the 23 TONS of mass recommended. And we have not even discussed cost. And while you can claim "easy DIY" all you want, VERY few people are willing/able to gut the center of their home to, reinforce/move/modify every truss, stringer and joist in the center of said home.
But as others have said, continue to study, research. and then document document document. Prove the world wrong. You are right. Sometimes it happens.
But not often.
OH.. and check local codes/restrictions before you cut that hole in the center of your roof.. just in case.
Masonry heaters are sexy as hell. Try retrofitting a house with one. Throw in a geothermal system while you're at it.
Not cheap, not simple. I'd love to have one, though
Not cheap, not simple. I'd love to have one, though
Looking forward to the pictures.
To each their own.
My small European, by the way, jotul f602 heats just fine
To each their own.
My small European, by the way, jotul f602 heats just fine
"a masonry heater will use 1/5 (or much) less wood, then a home heated with a metal wood stove"
I, too, am finding it extremely difficult to believe. I think he's saying 1/5 (or more) less.
"never allowing the inside combustion temperatures to achieve the 1100 F plus needed to ignite all the gases...."
When I get the old plate-steel Englander 24 up to 650-700 external temp, there's virtually no smoke coming out of the stack. Obviously, the gas/smoke is being burned in the fire box, in excess of 1100 degrees.
True, the Viking culture is mostly gone, but those that remain have adapted and have done quite well for themselves making the Capital One commercials.
1/5th the wood is way different than 1/5th less wood. 1/5th less means 4/5ths the wood. Instead of burning 10 cord its burning 8. Not as big of a claim anymore.
I can't see that argument either -- we shouldn't address it because another site is more of an authority? Otoh, are there really enough posts/threads about it at this point to justify a separate forum -- probably not.
Anyway, I hope to see more posts/threads about the topic. I'd like to see more about the principles and techniques in building and operating them. How to maximize output and maybe even how stoves/inserts could be modified to take advantage of the counterflow ideas. I recall reading how the high end parlor stoves of the late 19th century and early 20th had very convoluted exhaust paths and chambers that made them very efficient.
FWIIW
When I rebuilt my house in 1990 (2 story , small, ~25x30 feet) I designed around a wood stove sitting dead center of the first floor (Jotul combi fire), with a stainless chimney going straight up through the roof, much like you are suggesting for the masonry heater
The center bottom floor design works pretty well to heat the house. I would have liked a masonry heater, and got a small way there by recently changing to a soapstone stove ( progress hybrid) What a joy, even after the fire is out that 700 lbls of stone and iron continues to radiate
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I condsidered masonry heaters both in 1990 , and more recently when I bought the progress hybrid. Cost and the need to support the masonry were concerns that kept me with a wood stove
From what others are saying the 3 biggest problems with masonry heaters are 1) cost is too high, 2) they are too heavy and require foundation work, and 3) there is a lack of info/knowledge on how to build one.
I believe the cost can be dealt with. Right now a small MH can be bought for $5k and a large one for $10k. When this is compared to wood stoves no wonder masonry heaters seem like a stretch - and there isn't much info/public awareness out there about them. A small masonry heater if built by a homeowner could come in at $1000 if materials were collected thriftily. And a large MH for $2k. At these costs MH's could compete with wood/pellet stoves.
2nd problem - too heavy and take up too much space. If MH's were 'out there more' they could be incorporated into new construction. It isn't much more work in new construction to fortify the place where the MH will go, and to incorporate it in the floor design. But in large already built houses requiring a large MH, it could be a lot of work to fortify the floor and move things around to accommodate it. Now, builders put fireplaces in houses. And we all know fireplaces are really inefficient. That same rock/brick work could have been used to build a MH.
3rd problem - info/knowledge. If enough people started doing and figuring out how to build these things and sharing what they know/how they did it on sites like this others might give it a try and see how one of these things really works. Fire bricks, bricks or rocks or cinder or concrete, a door, metal flue, mortar, and a few small gadgets - that is all the parts one needs. A person just needs to know how to put them together.
It is annoying that so few people have built them themselves, and the ones who build them professionally don't talk much about how it is done.
I believe the cost can be dealt with. Right now a small MH can be bought for $5k and a large one for $10k. When this is compared to wood stoves no wonder masonry heaters seem like a stretch - and there isn't much info/public awareness out there about them. A small masonry heater if built by a homeowner could come in at $1000 if materials were collected thriftily. And a large MH for $2k. At these costs MH's could compete with wood/pellet stoves.
2nd problem - too heavy and take up too much space. If MH's were 'out there more' they could be incorporated into new construction. It isn't much more work in new construction to fortify the place where the MH will go, and to incorporate it in the floor design. But in large already built houses requiring a large MH, it could be a lot of work to fortify the floor and move things around to accommodate it. Now, builders put fireplaces in houses. And we all know fireplaces are really inefficient. That same rock/brick work could have been used to build a MH.
3rd problem - info/knowledge. If enough people started doing and figuring out how to build these things and sharing what they know/how they did it on sites like this others might give it a try and see how one of these things really works. Fire bricks, bricks or rocks or cinder or concrete, a door, metal flue, mortar, and a few small gadgets - that is all the parts one needs. A person just needs to know how to put them together.
It is annoying that so few people have built them themselves, and the ones who build them professionally don't talk much about how it is done.
You're going to be waiting a while. I've got to build the house first. I just rented an excavator and dug a 6' hole for the septic test hole. I've got most of the MH materials (still need to pick up a door). I've adjusted house plan to accommodate a small MH (small house). I've picked up 352 high duty fire brick (8"x6"x3") for $400 that I'm going to use on the core. I need less than 100 - so maybe I'll build someone else a heater after I figure out what I'm doing.
I think you're ignoring the 4th biggest "problem"...you're talking to a whole online community of people who are perfectly happy, successful, and content with the solid fuel-burning appliances we've very carefully chosen after lots of research/shopping, and determined are appropriate and affordable for our unique circumstances. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anyone here jumping up and saying, "Yes, I'm gonna scrap my _____ appliance and build me a Masonry Heater, by golly. But hey, go for it, and share the whole experience with us here. Rick
I think it's super that you want to build a masonry heater into your home. It is a great way to heat. My advice would be to study systems in detail. The main flaw I see in your plan is trying to do this on the cheap. Give yourself a bigger budget to do it right. You don't want to have problems with settling, creosote accumulation, cleaning or heat dispersal just because of corner cutting.
Also, think of the masonry heater as a design element. They are great for dividing a large open floorplan into more intimate areas. Take time to study successful designs. We have had a few posted here and there are also ideas on the masonry heaters forums. Here is a thread to inspire you: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-masonry-heater.10159/
http://mha-net.org/
yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MasonryHeaters/summary
Also, think of the masonry heater as a design element. They are great for dividing a large open floorplan into more intimate areas. Take time to study successful designs. We have had a few posted here and there are also ideas on the masonry heaters forums. Here is a thread to inspire you: https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/my-masonry-heater.10159/
http://mha-net.org/
yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MasonryHeaters/summary
I got a pallet of government super duty firebrick for $400, original cost $3500. I like to buy good things cheaply. Common brick is ...let's see..... common brick. Just because someone doesn't want it anymore doesn't mean it's still not structurally good brick - the mason's say this is fine. Unlike the inner core which gets very hot the outer is a thermal mass heat sink and it doesn't get that hot. The mortar masonry bullders use is $65 a pale - I'll need 1 or 2 buckets. A small door from Norway - $400. "You mustn't think outside the box. And you must spend a lot to get a lot!" Sorry if I'm building something that will most definitely outperform your wood stoves and will probably cost less to boot.
Certainly no need to apologize...just show us. We'll be right here.
DevilsBrew
Minister of Fire
- Apr 21, 2013
- 687
Great 4th point. I would add resale value as the "5th problem" when considering heating choices. It doesn't seem as though people ever put this into consideration when they start DIY'ing their house. What type, the quality of the build, and placement are all going to matter in the long run.
I love hybrids and post crazy stuff but I am also realistic.
I would like to look forward to an interesting and informative thread on this project. Hopefully it will be presented in a more pleasant manner. Confrontational, standoff-ish attitudes often indicate insecurity and weakness.
Don't many of these designs incorporate a damper that is closed after the fire burns out? To prevent heat loss up the chimney. That would suck, IMO.
Don't many of these designs incorporate a damper that is closed after the fire burns out? To prevent heat loss up the chimney. That would suck, IMO.
Nice link to a nice write there, thank you. Something that stands out in the writeup:
" In other words, once you light the fire you need to be home to shut the damper and air intake 2 hours later or a lot of the heat will be lost."
That's unfortunate.
Another thing I'm always wondering how folks compare this or that to a "wood stove." Are they comparing wood usage to an EPA wood stove or a smoke dragon?
" In other words, once you light the fire you need to be home to shut the damper and air intake 2 hours later or a lot of the heat will be lost."
That's unfortunate.
Another thing I'm always wondering how folks compare this or that to a "wood stove." Are they comparing wood usage to an EPA wood stove or a smoke dragon?
I am not sure what they are comparing it to, but the 1/5 of the wood number is completely a fallacy. Even if my stove is 50% efficient (which it exceeds) and the MH was 100% efficient (which it is not)...that would only be a reduction of 50% consumption.
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