LED lights

[Ashful]

I think you missed the comment you had made that I responded to - it was from a discussion in March. Near that you discussed:

Got it. Thanks for clarifying! Yeah, that was a bizarre failure, way short of predicted MTTF. It was one of a pair, and its mate is still going strong in the same location and under the same conditions, so indicative of poor product consistency/quality.

It really is catastrophic to the marketability of a new consumer-grade tech, when one of the primary advertised advantages (in this case, lifespan) fails to pan out. So far, the average of all 25k and 50k-hour-rated LED bulbs I have bought have had lifespans shorter than 2k or 6k-hour-rated incandescent and halogen bulbs, when installed either side-by-side or as replacements for the former. That’s across all locations and types, despite costing several times more.

I’m hoping that in my kitchen and great room, that we can finally break this trend, as more of the applications I’ve tried to date have been either outside or unheated spaces.

 

[begreen]

Found these at 3000k for 9W, 12W, 15W, and 18W options $9-$16. Plus delivery.

Amazon.com

There are cheaper, but I have found that quality, color temp, CRI, etc vary alot. The FEIT units have worked out well. They are good quality and have a name brand that stands behind their products.

 

[stoveliker]

Got it. Thanks for clarifying! Yeah, that was a bizarre failure, way short of predicted MTTF. It was one of a pair, and its mate is still going strong in the same location and under the same conditions, so indicative of poor product consistency/quality.

It really is catastrophic to the marketability of a new consumer-grade tech, when one of the primary advertised advantages (in this case, lifespan) fails to pan out. So far, the average of all 25k and 50k-hour-rated LED bulbs I have bought have had lifespans shorter than 2k or 6k-hour-rated incandescent and halogen bulbs, when installed either side-by-side or as replacements for the former. That’s across all locations and types, despite costing several times more.

I’m hoping that in my kitchen and great room, that we can finally break this trend, as more of the applications I’ve tried to date have been either outside or unheated spaces.

Again, as noted before. The consistency of failures for you (and not consistently across the board), and the knowledge that your power is of poor quality, strongly suggests it's the power cleanliness. Not heat or other issues (which would vary from location to location on your property).

While you argued before that they should be able to handle average dirty power, it is my contention that the power should comply with its imposed standards first, rather than have everybody pay more for more robust bulbs because a certain fraction of utilities is unable to provide clean enough power...

 

[Ashful]

Again, as noted before. The consistency of failures for you (and not consistently across the board), and the knowledge that your power is of poor quality, strongly suggests it's the power cleanliness. Not heat or other issues (which would vary from location to location on your property).

While you argued before that they should be able to handle average dirty power, it is my contention that the power should comply with its imposed standards first, rather than have everybody pay more for more robust bulbs because a certain fraction of utilities is unable to provide clean enough power...

Thanks for reminding me. And I misspoke above, when I said "the average of all" LED bulbs I've bought have failed before their incandescent or halogen counterparts. I think it's more fair to say "many" or "most". I know I've gotten 10k hours out of a few, way short of predicted, but still longer than many incandescent bulbs.

Despite likely power issues, I seem to get way higher than predicted hours from incandescent and halogen bulbs, in most locations. Some of our incandescent bulbs have been running ~4 hours per day for more than a decade, and many of our living room, study, and home office halogens have been running since before we moved in (13 years). Others, like some of the exterior wall sconces next to exterior doors (kids slam doors) get replaced at least once per year, almost certainly due to vibration more than burn time.

 

[DBoon]

Hi Ashful, I thought it was pretty clearly established a while ago that your incoming house voltage is at 135 V on occasions? This is well beyond what the utility should be allowing at the input to your house, and is the most likely) direct cause of the failures you are having with the LED bulbs. Incandescents and halogens also wouldn't be nearly as susceptible to this high a voltage, whereas LEDs using power semiconductor devices are likely to catastrophically fail if the voltage exceeds their operating limits.

 

[jp99]

Again, as noted before. The consistency of failures for you (and not consistently across the board), and the knowledge that your power is of poor quality, strongly suggests it's the power cleanliness. Not heat or other issues (which would vary from location to location on your property).

While you argued before that they should be able to handle average dirty power, it is my contention that the power should comply with its imposed standards first, rather than have everybody pay more for more robust bulbs because a certain fraction of utilities is unable to provide clean enough power...

Perhaps. My church is building a new auditorium, and there are dozens of BR lamps in cans they are using as the standard lighting for the room (it seats several hundred people). I looked a the bulbs, and the bulbs were rated something like 88V to 253V. A simple over voltage isn't going to cause a problem for those.

I agree, the utilities should provide power within the stated specs. The reality is different, and you won't likely change that. And if the current administration's plans to shut down fossil fuel power plants continues on the current path, it will only get worse. Brownouts, rolling blackouts, and power waveform issues are looking bad in the late 2020s before other sources can be brought on line.

Thermal problems for LED bulbs are a real issue, and are often designed to barely meet the stated temperature limits on the package. Making them look like an incandescent source severely compromises them. They are semiconductor devices, not filament, gas discharge, or arc sources.

 

[woodgeek]

Hi Ashful, I thought it was pretty clearly established a while ago that your incoming house voltage is at 135 V on occasions? This is well beyond what the utility should be allowing at the input to your house, and is the most likely) direct cause of the failures you are having with the LED bulbs. Incandescents and halogens also wouldn't be nearly as susceptible to this high a voltage, whereas LEDs using power semiconductor devices are likely to catastrophically fail if the voltage exceeds their operating limits.

I agree.

I would think that some higher end LED products would be able to handle this, while some lower end would not.

I would (again) suggest trying (twice as expensive) dimmable LED bulbs. Even if they are not on dimmers.

 

[Ashful]

Hi Ashful, I thought it was pretty clearly established a while ago that your incoming house voltage is at 135 V on occasions? This is well beyond what the utility should be allowing at the input to your house, and is the most likely) direct cause of the failures you are having with the LED bulbs. Incandescents and halogens also wouldn't be nearly as susceptible to this high a voltage, whereas LEDs using power semiconductor devices are likely to catastrophically fail if the voltage exceeds their operating limits.

Let's not get carried away, in thinking the voltage is regularly spiking up to 135V. To my recollection, that has happened three (maybe four?) times in 13 years, each time following a major storm event, and was usually resolved within hours. Yes, it has happened, more than once, but it's hardly daily life.

I agree.

I would think that some higher end LED products would be able to handle this, while some lower end would not.

I would (again) suggest trying (twice as expensive) dimmable LED bulbs. Even if they are not on dimmers.

Definitely. Only looking at dimmables.

I went ahead and bought a 12-pack of BR40's (CRI > 90) for great room, since those cans are deep, and they're angled cans, BR40's just seemed easier.

Still on the hunt for new kitchen lights. Unfortunately, the trim on all those I've found seems to be smaller than our old trim, which is at least partly painted in. This might mean putting off this project until I'm ready to repaint the kitchen, rather than leave paint blocking exposed by extracting old cans and replacing with smaller trims. Old cans are OD = Ø7.75", all new ones are between 7.3" and 7.5".

 

[Ashful]

Still haven't found a replacement trim that will work in the kitchen without repaint, but did go ahead and buy, receive, and install some of the BR40's in our great room. Here's some older photos I happen to have handy of this room, you can see the ceiling cans:



The old incandescent lights were GE 20330's, for which Amazon has suddenly erased all current and past listings, but here's a guy on ebay selling the same model:

GE Lighting 20330 Bulb, 45-Watt, Soft White | eBay

<p dir="ltr" style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0;">GE Lighting 20330 Bulb, 45-Watt, Soft White </p>

www.ebay.com

The new LED lights are:

Amazon.com

The new bulbs are definitely more blue than the old, even with the old at full brightness. Noticeable when viewing your own hand or arm, but really much more noticeable in wall color. Not necessarily bad, but definitely less "warm".

I don't love that, but I don't hate it so much as to make me ignore all the other benefits: less heat output in summer, less blackening of the white ceiling around cans due to dust carried constant convection currents over the years, reduced electricity, and maybe even longer life... at least in theory.

What bothers me a little bit more is the lack of any red shift when you dim them. This room is big, but still feels cozy when you're sitting in front of the Ashford 30, in one of those red leather wing back chairs, or even sitting around the table. But with the LED's, even dimming the lights, the room still feels kind of stark and crisp... not cozy.

Right now, I have LED's installed over the red chairs, and the old incadescents still installed over the table. Two separate circuits, so I can switch them on/off separately. I'm going to live with these for a few days, see if they grow on me, before making a decision.

 

[begreen]

The FEIT replacements I posted earlier would eliminate that black hole in the ceiling look when the lights are out. Their light is very much like incandescent.

 

[Ashful]

The FEIT replacements I posted earlier would eliminate that black hole in the ceiling look when the lights are out. Their light is very much like incandescent.

You mean the full surround replacements? So far, not an option, without repainting the ceiling. They're smaller than our current surrounds.

But the bulbs in that photo are tiny BR30's, whereas the new ones are BR40's, which completely fill the surround. They sit just 1" or 1.5" shy of flush in the straight cans, and flush with the shallow edge in the angled cans. It does mean you're "seeing" the bulb in the angle cans, but I don't think it looks bad that way.

I think all of our cans were made for BR40's, but I always stocked BR30's because the 40's were just too long for the shallow set of the kitchen cans. I never was able to find BR40's with a short neck, that seems to be only done in PAR38's and PAR30's, which have too narrow a beam angle to use for downlighting.

That said, I'll probably end up doing exactly that, in the kitchen... repainting the ceiling. The paint is still solid other than one spot over a cupboard where there had once been a plumbing leak. Unfortunately, you know how big a challenge it is to repair and repaint any wooden ceiling coated in 100+ years of lead paints in a kitchen, with a full family living in the house. I've been putting off that chore for years.

 

[woodgeek]

Phillips makes some 'Warm Effect' dimmable LED bulbs that colr shift to warmer when you dim them. This is slightly cheesy, they just have some red-shifted emitters and change the balance as you dim. I have these in my bathrooms that I often deeply dim, and I love them.

I looked to see if they made any 'warm effect' can retrofits, but came up empty. Lots of 'Hue' voice controlled things that you can dial in different temps. Not sure if you can program them to do warm effect. Sounds like a PITA... I don't do smart appliances except for the tstat. And I also saw kits that you can change the temp with an internal switch.

I find that I 'get used' to different temps pretty quickly... after all the color temp of daylight changes wildly with time of day, and we evolved to 'correct' that in our heads. Its only a problem with 'matching', if you have two different color temps in one room at the same time... bad.

 

[Ashful]

lol... yeah, that's what I have, right now! May switch the rest out tonight. There's really not much point in doing anything with them during daylight hours, as the room is almost all glass, other than the ceiling.

I'll check to see if Philips makes those warm shift bulbs in BR40 with high CRI, since I think I'd appreciate that in this room. But in my prior search, the FEIT was the only thing that had 2700K with CRI = 90 or higher.

In terms of color, these are just a shade bluer than my halogens (in same room, easy to compare). The halogens are labeled 2800K, so I'd put these LED's around 3000K. Definitely not the 2700K they're labeled, unless the halogens are mislabeled. The Incandescent BR30 bulbs are way redder, maybe 2200K? If I could find them, I'd swap these LED's for something redder, but I haven't seen a high-CRI BR40 redder than 2700K.

Like @woodgeek said, I'll adapt.

For the kitchen, retrofit surrounds, I think that's being put off until I repaint. Good news is that switching great room over to LED just freed up another 10 free incandescent BR30's. Might as well use them up, before worrying about that chore.

 

[stoveliker]

Might as well use them up, before worrying about that chore.

Nothing as satisfying as well-reasoned procrastination
🤣

 

[begreen]

You mean the full surround replacements? So far, not an option, without repainting the ceiling. They're smaller than our current surrounds.

That's a big hole. The trim ring on the FEITs is 7 3/8".

 

[Ashful]

That's a big hole. The trim ring on the FEITs is 7 3/8".

yeah, that seems to be the norm, these days. I'm not sure if our old 7.75" units were the norm at the time they were installed (probably 1986-1995), or if it was just this one manufacturer... but its what I've got!

Nothing as satisfying as well-reasoned procrastination
🤣

I can reason with the best of them. Honestly, I seemed to sink just about every free waking hour into "old house renovation" from 1998 - 2013, when our second kid was born. Now, I think more in terms of, "when they both go away to college, I can finally have time to redo the kitchen."

I honestly just can't even imagine tearing our kitchen apart, given how crazy our schedules are these days, but that's what it really needs... total gut and redo. Even shutting down long enough to sand out and repaint an old wooden ceiling is a tall order, with how heavily it's used now.

 

[Ashful]

In an almost perfect demonstration of "this is your life," I just walked out to that side of the house, and found every single can fixture between the kitchen and great room were left on by the kids... all except the four containing the new LED bulbs!

 

[bigealta]

What about a motion switch or even a timer switch.

 

[Pinesmoke]

In an almost perfect demonstration of "this is your life," I just walked out to that side of the house, and found every single can fixture between the kitchen and great room were left on by the kids... all except the four containing the new LED bulbs!

My wife has that magical power. Our place is a new build and 100% led, most on dimmers. In the middle of the day the lights in rooms magically come on when she walks past it seems. My magical power is the inverse. Rooms go dark when I walk past. At least they are cheap to run.

 

[Ashful]

What about a motion switch or even a timer switch.

I've actually done that, for all of our bathroom fans and electric heaters. But too much a PITA for lighting, easier to just switch to LED's. I don't really care about the cost, but I am getting frustrated with having to pull out the big 10 ft stepladder to change bulbs burned out from too many unattended hours on, and I'm seeing some dark shadows above the bulbs on the vaulted part of the ceiling due to the micro dust tornados that swirl around a hot can for a decade at a time. Ceiling was last repainted maybe 20 years ago, but in perfect shape, except a shadow forming above each angled can.

 

[MongoMongoson]

Here is a Cree bulb that just failed last week. Sadly, it is now past its 10 year warranty by about a year. You can see that the glass globe has detached and fallen inside the fixture.

This is one of the originals with the acrylic adhesive to attach the glass globe. The acrylic would turn brown and brittle from the light (I believe) not the heat. Later in 2013 or in 2014, Cree switched to silicone adhesive which no longer had this issue.

I will be able to stick the globe back on, if I can get the fixture apart without damaging the LEDs too badly. It is likely that I will knock off an LED dome or two. The LEDs will still light if that happens, but the phosphor will be gone so they will shine their natural blue rather than "white".

 

[Ashful]

, it is my contention that the power should comply with its imposed standards first, rather than have everybody pay more for more robust bulbs because a certain fraction of utilities is unable to provide clean enough power...

Noticed our lights flickering more than normal tonight. Checked the UPS’s, and they’re all reading 135-140 volts. Checked the emporia Vue, and… 277 volts!

PECO got another late night emergency call from me. They’re on their way, again. The last two times this happened, I was shopping new refrigerators.

 

[woodgeek]

Holy Smoking, um, Gun, Batman!

 

[gthomas785]

Noticed our lights flickering more than normal tonight. Checked the UPS’s, and they’re all reading 135-140 volts. Checked the emporia Vue, and… 277 volts!

PECO got another late night emergency call from me. They’re on their way, again. The last two times this happened, I was shopping new refrigerators.

View attachment 328264

Sounds like your utility has a missing or defective AVR and you are most likely owed compensation for whatever damage they have caused

 

[Ashful]

Sounds like your utility has a missing or defective AVR and you are most likely owed compensation for whatever damage they have caused

I called it in last night, but this morning we are still sitting over 260 volts. Our brand new variable speed pool pump also stopped working, stuck in an error state.

So I called their emergency line again and raised hell. Some of you may remember I lost a 20-month old kitchen refrigerator to the last similar event. I told them I want to claim both items, their claims department will be in touch.

It's been 13 hours since this started, and we're still sitting at 260 volts now. Better than the nearly-280 volts we were at last night, but still not great.

We have had this happen maybe a half dozen or more times in the last 12 years, starting around the time of Hurricane Irene (2011) or Sandy (2012). The first time, the field tech told me our autoranging transformer had gone bad, and he was just setting us temporarily on a manual tap, at the correct voltage. So now, 12-13 years later, it appears no one has fixed the problem. The emergency dispatcher could offer no advice or number to call about this, he said I'd best discuss it with the field tech, and put a call-back in for them to contact me.