Jotul vs Blaze King vs Vermont Castings Wood Stove?
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I usually swap after about 5 years on average. But that's because I like to use as many different ones as I can so I can help customers better. Otherwise there have been many I would have just kept
I understand where you are coming from but this isn't the mindset for me personally. The only people that I can imagine swapping their stoves out more than a few times in their lifetime are those that are either running into problems or dealers that want to try out different stoves in their homes. I would also imagine they either have a large budget or have a formula worked out for moving the stove. I have neither of these things.
For me personally I may have to remove my storm door and main metal door to the basement to even get a new stove down here and get the other one out. Not to mention it needs to go down several concrete steps that are not in the best shape. Plus the stoves we are talking about are not going to fetch top dollar on resale if bought from a dealer. I see Princess models going for half price or less on Facebook marketplace and if one was near me and I easily could I would get one believe me. If I spend $4k-$5k on a woodstove I want to minimalize my risk of it not working for me as much as possible.
Exactly you beat me to it while I was typing my post. I would like to get this right the first time and hopefully never have to worry about a wood stove again in my lifetime.
Indeed, I sold the F3CB for what I paid for it and the F400 for $200 more. That made the trade to the T6 an easy choice. Considering how much stoves have gone up in price in the past few years the odds are a well cared for stove will hold its value.
I also have never bought a new stove. And don't even own the one I am using now. Every stove I have used has been a used one
One thing for certain, the first stove is going to have a learning curve. One may decide the fire view is more important than burn time.
I may bring home a Jotul v3 Oslo. Put it’s through its paces, since the average consumer can’t make one burn a whole season successfully. I want to know what’s up with them.
I think you hold the record... both for most swaps and shortest time with one stove. Looking forward to more insight on the F500v3.
Sometimes it doesn’t take long to find out one is a turd…
and this is why I would rather get it right the first time lol. There is a lot to take in. Like it seems like the Princess 32 may be a safer choice than the Ideal Steel overall but the Ideal Steel has a "six month money back guarantee". I forgot to ask about the details when I talked to them but it sounds like you would not be stuck with the stove if you were completely unhappy with it.
My game plan is to do more research on the liner and decide whether I am going to do it myself or have someone else do it for me. Then getting a wood stove or having someone install it should not prove too crazy. If they install the stove I will probably have them do the crown work as well.
I can’t speak for others, but if we sell a stove we do a liner much cheaper. Sweeps usually want 2x what we do it for on an install.
Yeah probably because you are already there and not going there just for the install/liner. Having that said, do you guys install nice liners or will you take a customer request for something like a DuraLiner? Because the other companies, including the Blaze King one is not getting here until mid October. So I may just go ahead and install the DuraLiner myself. It would literally kill me if they got here and told me they would have installed the liner for me and cheaper or something.
We get chimney liners from a place in Indianapolis, they manufacture them on site and have several different types. We use mid/heavy weight flex on all installs these days.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Probably not on total count, you are our marathon runner. But I seem to remember tales of a pretty quick rash of stove swaps from begreen, in the few years leading up the T6, with some impressive "stoves per year" metric.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not suggesting you pick the wrong stove, or go into this with any plan to swap. I'm just saying the chimney setup is more important than the stove, as that's where more irreversible dollars and hours are going. If you find you chose the wrong stove, despite your best efforts, it's really not a big deal. But if someone does a hack job on your chimney setup, you're not going to recoup the costs of re-doing that, and it's going to take a lot more hours than just swapping a stove. That was the point.
Exactly. Priorities change, or more often, aren't known or developed until after one starts on a new lifestyle. And heating a home with wood is a lifestyle choice, no matter how you slice it.
Ashful, let me expand on what you said. I couldn’t agree more. The chimney and the hearth build are the two most important parts of the system.
A hearth should be planned out and built to accommodate more than the stove being placed there at this time. In other words, minimum clearances for one stove may not allow for a stove swap later, or continually, because with each swap clearances change. With an existing hearth it doesn’t matter so much because it’s already built and it is what it is, but building one is and should be different allowing for much more clearance room to accommodate a possible stove swap in the future and possible Code changes in the future as well.
It may not take but a short time to find a dud stove, but generally most stoves are going to run just fine with a well built engine/chimney. However, learning the nuances of a stove and how it can be run in different ways takes time and generally won’t be done in a single season, weather being one contributing factor that changes everything. Some winters are mild, some are average, but it’s those rare winters that will teach you the most about your current stove and how to run it, what it likes, how different sized wood affects the burn as well as load direction, and density of load.
Not all forum members and stove swappers are learning their stoves. I once seen a forum member declare he’s had “xx” stoves in 25 years…and he most likely had more money than knowledge of those stoves. That’s generally not the case with stove swappers who contribute to forums. That was an exception and not the rule…least that I’ve witnessed from forum members.
So I don’t subscribe to being able to completely become familiar with a particular stove in a short time, let alone a single season. I’ve lived too long and seen different. If you’re swapping stoves a lot and not taking notes, OR contributing to a forum recording your findings, like many here do, then you’re not fully paying attention and learning that stove.
That’s what separates forum regulars who are stove swappers from the “Average Joe” who simply buys a stove, loads it and forgets about it, doesn’t contribute to a forum, doesn’t like the hobby and never shows up on a forum to share information.
A hearth should be planned out and built to accommodate more than the stove being placed there at this time. In other words, minimum clearances for one stove may not allow for a stove swap later, or continually, because with each swap clearances change. With an existing hearth it doesn’t matter so much because it’s already built and it is what it is, but building one is and should be different allowing for much more clearance room to accommodate a possible stove swap in the future and possible Code changes in the future as well.
It may not take but a short time to find a dud stove, but generally most stoves are going to run just fine with a well built engine/chimney. However, learning the nuances of a stove and how it can be run in different ways takes time and generally won’t be done in a single season, weather being one contributing factor that changes everything. Some winters are mild, some are average, but it’s those rare winters that will teach you the most about your current stove and how to run it, what it likes, how different sized wood affects the burn as well as load direction, and density of load.
Not all forum members and stove swappers are learning their stoves. I once seen a forum member declare he’s had “xx” stoves in 25 years…and he most likely had more money than knowledge of those stoves. That’s generally not the case with stove swappers who contribute to forums. That was an exception and not the rule…least that I’ve witnessed from forum members.
So I don’t subscribe to being able to completely become familiar with a particular stove in a short time, let alone a single season. I’ve lived too long and seen different. If you’re swapping stoves a lot and not taking notes, OR contributing to a forum recording your findings, like many here do, then you’re not fully paying attention and learning that stove.
That’s what separates forum regulars who are stove swappers from the “Average Joe” who simply buys a stove, loads it and forgets about it, doesn’t contribute to a forum, doesn’t like the hobby and never shows up on a forum to share information.
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Like I said I understand what you are saying. It is simple logic, the wood stove or any fuel system for that matter is more replaceable than your house, hearth or chimney. With good help you can potentially swap out a wood stove in a day. Something that is a lot harder to do with your house, hearth or chimney. It is also going to prove more expensive too, especially in our economy right now.
So not trying to attack or oppose anyone here but these were his words in his second paragraph. He literally said "But stoves can be swapped quickly, easily, and with relatively little money lost" and I argue none of those things are true for an "average joe" and 90-99% of people in general. That percentage is a little bit higher on this site because you have dealers like bholler that want to be able to give real feedback on products. On the other hand you have people that have the means to easily move the wood stoves. For some people it is as easy as putting it into their home with a tractor and sliding the stove on the pallet for where it needs to go.
I do not have either of those things. My best bet is going to be to back my truck up to my door, unload the stove, take it down several concrete steps and then it needs to go roughly 20'. Not considering it also has to go up on my hearth. So for me personally not one of those things is true. I would also guesstimate that it is not true for the huge majority of most people.
Specifically I was talking about purchasing a brand new catalytic stove from a dealer. If I get midway through Winter and the stove just is not working out and it is a harsh Winter good luck swapping it out quickly, especially for another stove you have to locate yourself. I think I have already proven it is not easy for me. Plus these stoves cost around $4-$5k so if I had to sell it I am definitely not going to get that back. I would probably lose at least half of that and still have to put another stove in. I could go on and on but in reality for me I would very much like to get it right the first time. Take into consideration I am also trying to round up a couple friends to help me wrestle this in here and I do not want to have to call them back up and say "hey guys this wood stove isn't working out I need you again". So for me personally this is going to be a real headache. Just it is a headache that I hopefully will never have to deal with again if I make the right choice the first time.
Who are you quoting? That’s not what I wrote, perhaps I edited it, but I believe you misunderstood what I was getting at. I’ll explain later. Running errands at the moment.
Sorry I realize it was confusing. It is what Ashful said and why we are discussing this now. This is that post from the previous page.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
They were quoting me. And yes they are correct, moving stoves is more difficult for some than others, and a few hundred dollars means more to some than others.
But I'd encourage anyone to include the dollars saved in alternative fuels, anytime you're looking at stove and chimney costs. At least in my particular case, I save so much in fuel that I completely covered the purchase price of my two stoves in just over a year.
We're getting distracted, swapping stoves wasn't the point of the thread, merely an aside. That's my fault, I was really only trying to point out that the chimney and hearth setup always trump the stove in cost and time to redo, and that choosing a stove that's less than 100% optimal is less costly than doing the same on chimney or hearth. Stoves can be swapped, and no matter how you feel about the difficult or costs associated, they are less than re-doing a bad chimney setup.
I am no spring chicken but I moved our heavy T6 in and had it running in less than 2 hrs. We did this with 2 men and a boy, over 200 ft of yard, then up a couple steps. Wheels make the difference. Ratchet strapping a stove to a heavy-duty appliance dolly makes this something that is an affordable and relatively quick process. There were no tractors or other equipment involved.
Used stoves can often be purchased for a fraction of the cost of a new one…substantially lowering the cost of an overall install job paying someone else to do it, but it takes time knowing what you’re looking at. You have to study the stoves, go look at used and new ones, talk to knowledgeable people, look at brochures, manuals, etc.
For instance…
A new Lopi Liberty is running around $4k-$5k. Let’s use the lower number.
If you go back a few years to the last model year stove before this latest style change those stoves were still at or near $4k. The emissions rate for that stove was 2.6 grams. The new model is only .1 grams better on emissions being 2.5 grams. So the 2.6 gram model, the last year of it before this last lodel change, was used for several years, even a couple decades…way back. In other words, the Liberty had 2.6 gram emissions ratings all the way back to the year my Liberty was built (1998) and likely a year or three longer. So the Liberty didn’t change much if any for a few decades. I bought my stove for far less than $500 in remarkable condition. Why would I pay $4k for the exact same stove only newer…at least up to this latest model enhancements? I wouldn’t for .1 difference emissions…perhaps to get the larger door to see more of the fire…and even then I’m still looking for a used latest model Liberty.
For me the purpose of swapping stoves is relative to the discussion of getting it right, that is, choosing the right stove the first time.
Heating from a basement is a difficult animal altogether, especially if it’s uninsulated. That makes getting it right the first time much easier.
However, in my case, a single story relatively small open floor plan “L” shaped makes getting it right the first time challenging if you don’t have any knowledge of stoves and how they function. All aren’t the same. There’s radiant stoves, convection stoves, stoves that do both, and stoves where the sides are cool but the top of the stove is screaming hot, and then there’s my stove where sides and front radiate lots of heat, yet the back and top of the stove is far cooler…to the point that if I burn coal in it I can place my hand on the stove pipe and leave it there while the stove is running at 400F…but that’s coal, a different animal altogether, and not part of the discussion. I’m just giving examples of how different stoves heat differently.
So I grew up partly in this house that my grandparents lived in with a large wood stove. Too big. Far too big. When the house was going for auction the stove was replaced (not by me) with another large stove. Still too big. Then I got the house and from using various stoves before elsewhere, as well as using another wood stove here and then a coal stove…the coal stove allowed me to weigh coal use per day and to calculate right down to pounds per hour for a season, and another season, and another. The stove was the same size as the large wood stoves, but because it’s a coal stove and because of its design I was able to run it at a far lower temperature.
I know this is a long post but hang with me because there is a point to this.
Being able to to run such low temperatures allowed me to calculate dang near exact btu needs per hour. As well you gain insight on how well a large stove radiates heat. This allowed me to determine that other large wood stoves that I had bought cheaply would be far too large for my home. So now I can look at a steel stove and automatically determine if it is too large because square inches is just that. The more square inches of steel along with mass (much or little) can totally change a stove choice.
The point is, a forum helps to know if a manufacturers stove ratings are blown out of proportion, spot on, or underwhelming.
So if you already have a stove in place and have experience with it, that goes a ling way in getting it right the first time…choosing the right stove the first time….well the second time. That’s the point…the second time.
Going from no stove at all to choosing the right one the first time isn’t impossible but it can be very challenging.
So you’re ahead of the game by discussing stove models here…farther ahead than you would be if you had nothing else to rely on but a dealer. Gather as much information as you can, but remember the perfect stove doesn’t exist. Least not in my mind…unless I built it myself. It’s fun trying to find the perfect one though.
Hope some of this helps you.
For instance…
A new Lopi Liberty is running around $4k-$5k. Let’s use the lower number.
If you go back a few years to the last model year stove before this latest style change those stoves were still at or near $4k. The emissions rate for that stove was 2.6 grams. The new model is only .1 grams better on emissions being 2.5 grams. So the 2.6 gram model, the last year of it before this last lodel change, was used for several years, even a couple decades…way back. In other words, the Liberty had 2.6 gram emissions ratings all the way back to the year my Liberty was built (1998) and likely a year or three longer. So the Liberty didn’t change much if any for a few decades. I bought my stove for far less than $500 in remarkable condition. Why would I pay $4k for the exact same stove only newer…at least up to this latest model enhancements? I wouldn’t for .1 difference emissions…perhaps to get the larger door to see more of the fire…and even then I’m still looking for a used latest model Liberty.
For me the purpose of swapping stoves is relative to the discussion of getting it right, that is, choosing the right stove the first time.
Heating from a basement is a difficult animal altogether, especially if it’s uninsulated. That makes getting it right the first time much easier.
However, in my case, a single story relatively small open floor plan “L” shaped makes getting it right the first time challenging if you don’t have any knowledge of stoves and how they function. All aren’t the same. There’s radiant stoves, convection stoves, stoves that do both, and stoves where the sides are cool but the top of the stove is screaming hot, and then there’s my stove where sides and front radiate lots of heat, yet the back and top of the stove is far cooler…to the point that if I burn coal in it I can place my hand on the stove pipe and leave it there while the stove is running at 400F…but that’s coal, a different animal altogether, and not part of the discussion. I’m just giving examples of how different stoves heat differently.
So I grew up partly in this house that my grandparents lived in with a large wood stove. Too big. Far too big. When the house was going for auction the stove was replaced (not by me) with another large stove. Still too big. Then I got the house and from using various stoves before elsewhere, as well as using another wood stove here and then a coal stove…the coal stove allowed me to weigh coal use per day and to calculate right down to pounds per hour for a season, and another season, and another. The stove was the same size as the large wood stoves, but because it’s a coal stove and because of its design I was able to run it at a far lower temperature.
I know this is a long post but hang with me because there is a point to this.
Being able to to run such low temperatures allowed me to calculate dang near exact btu needs per hour. As well you gain insight on how well a large stove radiates heat. This allowed me to determine that other large wood stoves that I had bought cheaply would be far too large for my home. So now I can look at a steel stove and automatically determine if it is too large because square inches is just that. The more square inches of steel along with mass (much or little) can totally change a stove choice.
The point is, a forum helps to know if a manufacturers stove ratings are blown out of proportion, spot on, or underwhelming.
So if you already have a stove in place and have experience with it, that goes a ling way in getting it right the first time…choosing the right stove the first time….well the second time. That’s the point…the second time.
Going from no stove at all to choosing the right one the first time isn’t impossible but it can be very challenging.
So you’re ahead of the game by discussing stove models here…farther ahead than you would be if you had nothing else to rely on but a dealer. Gather as much information as you can, but remember the perfect stove doesn’t exist. Least not in my mind…unless I built it myself. It’s fun trying to find the perfect one though.
Hope some of this helps you.
I do the same with a heavy refrigerator dolly but don’t have any steps. Although buying used often, there are always steps involved it seems. Having help is usually best.
I moved my big Hitzer 354 by myself. It’s a beast, but the Liberty showed me it was beastier.😂 Man that stove seemed heavy. I can swap stoves fairly quick. Takes me longest to fit the stove pipes.
Haven’t gotten the opportunity to try moving a D.S. 110/160 or a Woodstock Progress Hybrid and pretty sure I’ll need help with those…approaching 700+lbs. Makes me sweat just thinking about it.😂
I took apart my smaller jotul f400 and moved, loaded in crv, drove 10 hours round trip, reassembled right in front of install location and installed myself.
Very doable.
paid $1,400 for the blue black finished f400 in like new condition in 2019.
Very doable.
paid $1,400 for the blue black finished f400 in like new condition in 2019.
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