Jotul, Tax Credit, and The Dealers who think the US Gov't is putting their products on sale for them
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Not a whiner... just not a sucker. Next time you go to a GM dealer and they tell you they are not going to sell you a car below the sticker price because the Gov't is giving you a $4500, you tell me that you are OK with that.... No difference here. I am not through and I will post my findings if they ever get beyond this point.
AGE
AGE
oldAGE said:
Just because the dealers that you have been too do not want make a sale on your terms.Bravo to them they know when to walk too.
The days of huge discounts on vehicles that GM, Chrysler and Ford couldn't otherwise sell, but continued building anyway, are likely over. Their competitors don't need to discount and the best ask more than MSRP in many cases. But usually there is a reason why they can. My VW Tdi which we just bought and recieved no discount from sticker gets 41mpg and uses less than half the fuel compared to our previous wagon. That fact alone will save us $2300/yr in fuel cost assuming prices stay put.
So, they way I see it, I will get a discount every time I fill the tank, as long as I drive the car. I noted that a lot of people are buying the Chevy Cobalt. I bought one a few years ago, and it has been the biggest piece of junk I have ever owned. Much worse that the Kia Spectra I had before it and I paid 4x the price I paid for the spectra. I had the crome peel off the interior door handles and it was razor sharp. Had the black "paint" come of the white plastic buttons for the radio in less than a year. Have had intermittent wiring issues with the left headlight and the key release circuit (won't release the key).
I'm pretty sure the stove industry has lost a lot of money the past few years at a lot of levels, from the manufacturers to the retailers. They either have to close shop or get it from customers.
Demanding a discounted price is the same as saying that every business is fleecing all of their customers, all the time. Any serious businessman should offer you his best price the first time around, take it or leave it. Apparently the dealer feels that way, but you don't. This "Wallmart" attitude is what will kill all small business in this country. The only people who live this way are those who **** their suppliers to get huge margins so that they "look good" offering you a bit of a discount. And shoppers think they are being done a favor.
So, they way I see it, I will get a discount every time I fill the tank, as long as I drive the car. I noted that a lot of people are buying the Chevy Cobalt. I bought one a few years ago, and it has been the biggest piece of junk I have ever owned. Much worse that the Kia Spectra I had before it and I paid 4x the price I paid for the spectra. I had the crome peel off the interior door handles and it was razor sharp. Had the black "paint" come of the white plastic buttons for the radio in less than a year. Have had intermittent wiring issues with the left headlight and the key release circuit (won't release the key).
I'm pretty sure the stove industry has lost a lot of money the past few years at a lot of levels, from the manufacturers to the retailers. They either have to close shop or get it from customers.
Demanding a discounted price is the same as saying that every business is fleecing all of their customers, all the time. Any serious businessman should offer you his best price the first time around, take it or leave it. Apparently the dealer feels that way, but you don't. This "Wallmart" attitude is what will kill all small business in this country. The only people who live this way are those who **** their suppliers to get huge margins so that they "look good" offering you a bit of a discount. And shoppers think they are being done a favor.
FYI, a summer sale is actually a pretty rare thing in the stove biz.
We had only some makers do it some years - and when they did, it was usually a move of desperation or in reaction to another maker that did it.
A more typical sale on woodstoves is in the time period of Jan/Feb, and even then only during a slow season. The reason a sale would be in effect then is that the maker might still have stock in their warehouses unsold, and if they don't move them by March 1, they probably will not move them until next season.
Wood stoves are not cars and although the biz may not be in great shape right now, smart makers (like Jotul) adjust by bringing in and making only the stoves they can actually sell. That means they don't have to give them away. From a business perspective, that works out much better than GM and big companies that have vast inventories they can't sell.
If you want a deal right now buy a house or a car, not a top end wood stove. There is also a difference between a "deal" and a "value".
We had only some makers do it some years - and when they did, it was usually a move of desperation or in reaction to another maker that did it.
A more typical sale on woodstoves is in the time period of Jan/Feb, and even then only during a slow season. The reason a sale would be in effect then is that the maker might still have stock in their warehouses unsold, and if they don't move them by March 1, they probably will not move them until next season.
Wood stoves are not cars and although the biz may not be in great shape right now, smart makers (like Jotul) adjust by bringing in and making only the stoves they can actually sell. That means they don't have to give them away. From a business perspective, that works out much better than GM and big companies that have vast inventories they can't sell.
If you want a deal right now buy a house or a car, not a top end wood stove. There is also a difference between a "deal" and a "value".
In my opinion, you are incredibly pound foolish. This is an appliance which will last you for twenty years, not a piece of junk VC. A couple hundred extra bucks spread over time is nothing. The dealer needs to make a living as well. My dealer saved me hundreds by giving me an hour of his time, telling me how to install my own chimney; he didn'y have to but he did. Not everything is a swindle.
Keep an eye out on Craigslist, I recently saw a last year's model Quad Isle Royale going for $1500 which is a hell of a deal.
AGE, I always respect a person who sets his price and is willing to walk away. That is a negotiation tool that is proven and timeless. Doesn't mean that it is always successful, as I have learned, but nonetheless, you gotta draw the line. I am the type of person who is not happy unless I feel that I have gotten " a deal". Whether real or imagined. Stick to your guns.
Kudos to AGE for being willing to stick to his guns. All big ticket purchases are ultimately a meeting between what the buyer is will to pay and the seller is willing to take.
I bought my new Oslo in the early spring. The dealer I had hoped to use, with a good reputation for service and satisfaction, always has their sale at the end of March. I wanted to buy it a little before that, so I shopped around. There are 3 Jotul dealers within long striking distance (an hour drive or less), and one of the other dealers was willing to discount a new Oslo to a price that was lower than the preferred dealer's end-of-season sale would have. They gave me a written quote, and I took it to the preferred dealer. They winced when they saw it, made a few calculations, and finally relented and matched the price.
Had I not had multiple dealers to leverage, I would not have received that price. Could I have maybe worked it down a bit more? Maybe. I did get him to throw in some free stovepipe even after negotiating the price, but I may have been able to hold out for more. The timing was good in my case, as the dealer's sale time is end of March. Right now, stove buying is picking up, and I doubt if he's willing to deal as much.
The best deal ultimately comes with the perfect storm of competition, timing, determination, and luck. Absent any of these, and the price will be higher, sometimes by a little bit, and sometimes by a lot. AGE certainly has the determination piece, but it sounds like the competition piece is missing and the timing is questionable in his scenario. And you can never count on the fourth!
I bought my new Oslo in the early spring. The dealer I had hoped to use, with a good reputation for service and satisfaction, always has their sale at the end of March. I wanted to buy it a little before that, so I shopped around. There are 3 Jotul dealers within long striking distance (an hour drive or less), and one of the other dealers was willing to discount a new Oslo to a price that was lower than the preferred dealer's end-of-season sale would have. They gave me a written quote, and I took it to the preferred dealer. They winced when they saw it, made a few calculations, and finally relented and matched the price.
Had I not had multiple dealers to leverage, I would not have received that price. Could I have maybe worked it down a bit more? Maybe. I did get him to throw in some free stovepipe even after negotiating the price, but I may have been able to hold out for more. The timing was good in my case, as the dealer's sale time is end of March. Right now, stove buying is picking up, and I doubt if he's willing to deal as much.
The best deal ultimately comes with the perfect storm of competition, timing, determination, and luck. Absent any of these, and the price will be higher, sometimes by a little bit, and sometimes by a lot. AGE certainly has the determination piece, but it sounds like the competition piece is missing and the timing is questionable in his scenario. And you can never count on the fourth!
I don't think a dealer asking what ever they want for a stove is any thing wrong. They own it, they can hold out for whatever they want just as the buyer can hold out for whatever price they want to pay. Too often the buyer won't make an offer. They just want to bounce back and forth between stores chipping away. Afraid that somebody will say "OK" and they have to take the stove.
In the case of my stove purchase back in 1985, it was fun. I passed a shop I didn't know of previously on the way home from work. In early August. Temp outside was in the high 90s and humidity was brutal. Perfect day for stove shopping. :lol: The stove I wanted was the largest available in the area at the time and hard to find. These guys had one on the floor. In an un-air conditioned very old former gasoline station. Seems that local historic rules wouldn't let them retrofit it with A/C. I was in a three piece suit. Me and the guy chatted about the stove for a while as the clock ticked toward suppertime and the sweat poured off the guy. I had just moved from Texas and had a little more heat tolerance than he did. I shifted subjects a half dozen times chatting and watching him wilt and keep looking at his watch. Finally I grinned and offered him $400 less than he was asking for the stove. He just shook his head and said "Sold. I have to get outta here.". Not only got a fantastic deal but they delivered the thing 45 miles and sat it on the hearth for the $50 agreed on in that oven that afternoon.
If you know what you will pay for it. Tell'em.
In the case of my stove purchase back in 1985, it was fun. I passed a shop I didn't know of previously on the way home from work. In early August. Temp outside was in the high 90s and humidity was brutal. Perfect day for stove shopping. :lol: The stove I wanted was the largest available in the area at the time and hard to find. These guys had one on the floor. In an un-air conditioned very old former gasoline station. Seems that local historic rules wouldn't let them retrofit it with A/C. I was in a three piece suit. Me and the guy chatted about the stove for a while as the clock ticked toward suppertime and the sweat poured off the guy. I had just moved from Texas and had a little more heat tolerance than he did. I shifted subjects a half dozen times chatting and watching him wilt and keep looking at his watch. Finally I grinned and offered him $400 less than he was asking for the stove. He just shook his head and said "Sold. I have to get outta here.". Not only got a fantastic deal but they delivered the thing 45 miles and sat it on the hearth for the $50 agreed on in that oven that afternoon.
If you know what you will pay for it. Tell'em.
Like minds BB, that's similar to the way I bought our pellet stove. Nothing like a hot day in August to soften a stove sale. The stove, pool and spa store was about 90 degrees inside and humid as hades from the bubbling hot tubs. Nothing was selling. Bought the stove and was out the door in 30 minutes.
The last two stoves and cars we've bought were done over the phone, sight unseen. If you know your fair price and are ready to pay, timing can be everything.
The last two stoves and cars we've bought were done over the phone, sight unseen. If you know your fair price and are ready to pay, timing can be everything.
Thanks for all the replies folks. It's funny - the person who mentioned the "walmart mentality." That's EXACTLY not what is happening. Missing the point completely. The small business owner should care that I am concerned about price and I am willing to walk out the door. I know that I can't buy this at a big box store but that's not the point of this thread. It's the "take it or leave it" proposition that put small business in the toilet. Wal-mart and Low Price has nothing to do with this. I am not asking to buy the stove below cost and I am not saying the seller should sell at a low profit. Historically, this retailer had a pre-season sale in August for the past many years. His statement that the Tax Credit should be good enough for me is what I have a problem with.
I know a lot of people have a problem "negotiating." That is why so many people hate buying cars. Go to the Ratings page of Hearth.com. Look up your favorite stove. See what people pay for it and the year of the review. It's quite interesting.
As for me, well it was in the mid-90s today and I couldn't be less concerned with buying a wood stove today. Tomorrow's another day.
AGE
I know a lot of people have a problem "negotiating." That is why so many people hate buying cars. Go to the Ratings page of Hearth.com. Look up your favorite stove. See what people pay for it and the year of the review. It's quite interesting.
As for me, well it was in the mid-90s today and I couldn't be less concerned with buying a wood stove today. Tomorrow's another day.
AGE
Age, its been a hell of a year, hasn't it ? Recession, depression, bankrupcy, bailouts, mass layoffs etc etc etc. Something in there might hint that what worked every year for the past 20 might not be happening this year. The dealer may have been burned last year by some of the manufacturers who went bankrupt. Or he may have had to bail out customers when the manufacturers didn't honor their warranties and wanted their crappy stoves fixed. His line of credit may have been cut, or his interest rate may have been hiked up. Or all of the above. Given that situation AND the fact that the government is offering a subsidy for buyers of super efficient stoves, he may just not be feeling very generous. Until you find someone more desperate or cash flush (given their particular circumstances, not least of which may have been where they had their 401K invested) you have not won. And what is winning for you may be losing for the other guy.
There wasn't really any wiggle room when we bought our stove. I'm thinking it probably has to do with the tax credits. Given the lack of Jotul dealers in Southern VT/NH, we weren't willing to drive around for hours to save $100.
sullystull said:
I don't remember the name of it but it was here in Virginia. Bodmer's is up a ways in Maryland.
A bit off topic but as some folks here have driven this thread towards the topic, here is a timely piece:
(broken link removed to http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=111721647&m=111721663)
AGE
(broken link removed to http://www.npr.org/templates/player/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=111721647&m=111721663)
AGE
Try calling the other dealers in your area to get a price quote on the stove you are looking for as a pre-cursor to you actually investigating the stove seller.
When I bought my Harman I actually went to multiple dealers within a 75 mile radius and called them up to 150 radius.
Then I had them compete against each other for my business. Of course this was in the Feb-March time-frame so it was a little easier to get some wiggle room. When I encountered a business that didn't want to deal I wiped the dust off my feet as I left the store.
Another thing besides price you have to consider when purchasing a stove is after the sale support.
As above I could have bought the TL-200 with all the bells and whistles (Special colored version, Gold Trim, fire place screen, grill, and a tile inlay) for around 1.6K, but this was more of a general store instead of a hearth store and the service after the sale would not have been as good as I would want. So I instead went with a place that sold me the TL-300 for around 2K that had excellent after the sale support.
When I bought my Harman I actually went to multiple dealers within a 75 mile radius and called them up to 150 radius.
Then I had them compete against each other for my business. Of course this was in the Feb-March time-frame so it was a little easier to get some wiggle room. When I encountered a business that didn't want to deal I wiped the dust off my feet as I left the store.
Another thing besides price you have to consider when purchasing a stove is after the sale support.
As above I could have bought the TL-200 with all the bells and whistles (Special colored version, Gold Trim, fire place screen, grill, and a tile inlay) for around 1.6K, but this was more of a general store instead of a hearth store and the service after the sale would not have been as good as I would want. So I instead went with a place that sold me the TL-300 for around 2K that had excellent after the sale support.
oldAGE said:
AGE,
If you are in any type of city, you are more metropolitan than I am here. And that's the way I like it, or I wouldn't be here. I'm located pretty much equidistant from Atlanta, Chattanooga & Birmingham. My mailing address is the city that is the county seat but I'm physically much closer to a small town that had 1861 residents in the 2000 census. The whole county had just over 25K at that time. There is no stove shop in this county. But there isn't much of anything else either. Most of my shopping for a stove was at least initially over the phone and then followed up by visiting if my conversation merited it.
Never lose sight of the fact that all wood stoves are just a brick lined metal box that you burn wood in. Some people spend $500 on a Bose clock radio, $1000 on a pure bred dog and $5000 on a wood burning stove when a $30 clock radio, a free dog and a $700 wood stove will all last as long and perform as well as their hyped counterparts. It's your dollar vote and the shop's election for every product that you purchase.
Chettt said:
I dunno. I am kinda suspicious of those guys that burn in those big box store wood stoves. There just isn't any way that those things could heat as well as one sold by a guy sells hot tubs too. :coolsmirk:
oldAGE said:
As the crow flies, not far, but Lavender and Simms mountains lie between me and Rome. If you know the area, I'm on the eastern bank of the Chattooga River (not the one from "Deliverance") near the south end of Taylor's Ridge.
Jeff
Just wanted to toss in, we just started a new sale this week, 10% the entire order including labor, up to $400 discount max. Not sure if it only applies to jobs we install or cash/carry also.
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