Insert in a Prefab fireplace - help needed on options
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I had a Napoleon 1101 installed into a Superior pre fab a few years ago. It has a 6 inch liner and works great. My liner is not insulated ( I did not have the knowledge at the time to want it). The point is, I had it professionally installed with a city building permit. When the city came to sign off on my permit a fire inspector also came out. The city building inspector signed off and the fire inspector gave me a letter stating he approved of the install. The insurance company sent a person out to look at it and he seen no problems with it. He just took a few pictures and said enjoy. I see no safety concerns with this type of set up. I have worked in the fire service for 15 years and I believe what is more of a concern is lack of seasoned wood, poorly maintained chimney cleaning schedule(my neighbors give me a hard time about sweeping once a month!), lack of adequate hearth and clearance to combustibles. I have seen many a fire started by those reasons but not one from a correctly installed insert into a pre fab fire place.
Problem is it cannot be correctly installed into a unit that is not allowed to have an insert in it.
bholler
I have read and very clearly understand how you feel on this subject. I get how when your company does an install you want no doubt that it could not come back on you at all if things were to go bad. I understand that very well, that job is how you put food on the table for you and your family.
From where I sit, I look at the probability of fire occurring in the structure only. If we were to say 100 family's had an open pre fab fire place and 100 had a ZC rated insert with a liner in said fireplace, and each family burned 70 fires a year for 5 years I know I would be visiting more of the open fire places folks. I guess what I am trying to say is I understand where you are coming from but I feel ZC rated inserts in a pre fab is more of a liability issue than a safety issue. You know more about this than me, but if the city building inspector, city fire inspector and insurance person all come out and sign off that it is safe I don't see how there can be any liability on the installer.
Finally, I hope you do not take this conversation to be argumentative or disrespectful. The guys like you and others that post a lot on here, I am sure have saved many homes and human life over the years through education and training. I still remember my grandfather "teaching" me when I was young to cut fire wood in September so it could "season" and be ready for Thanksgiving!
I have read and very clearly understand how you feel on this subject. I get how when your company does an install you want no doubt that it could not come back on you at all if things were to go bad. I understand that very well, that job is how you put food on the table for you and your family.
From where I sit, I look at the probability of fire occurring in the structure only. If we were to say 100 family's had an open pre fab fire place and 100 had a ZC rated insert with a liner in said fireplace, and each family burned 70 fires a year for 5 years I know I would be visiting more of the open fire places folks. I guess what I am trying to say is I understand where you are coming from but I feel ZC rated inserts in a pre fab is more of a liability issue than a safety issue. You know more about this than me, but if the city building inspector, city fire inspector and insurance person all come out and sign off that it is safe I don't see how there can be any liability on the installer.
Finally, I hope you do not take this conversation to be argumentative or disrespectful. The guys like you and others that post a lot on here, I am sure have saved many homes and human life over the years through education and training. I still remember my grandfather "teaching" me when I was young to cut fire wood in September so it could "season" and be ready for Thanksgiving!
Not at all and i respect your opinion.
Because if something does happen all of those people are protected by law from litigation the installer is not. So if there is a claim and they find negligence (which this is) they are going to go after whoever installed it.
As far as safety issues go if the fireplace is installed correctly and its floor is strong enough to support the insert. And the installer does not restrict the cooling air circulation around that fireplace then yes i think it could be safe. But at least 25% of the builders box zc units i check don't have proper clearances. And the floors only need to support 100 lbs per sq ft which inserts can reach. There are allot of ifs
Again i respect you opinion i just disagree. And so do all of the professional organizations in the field.
In recent years, some zero-clearance fireplace manufacturers have changed the wording in their operator's manuals regarding installation of wood and gas inserts.
Perhaps the biggest player, Heatilator, now specifically allows installation of wood or gas inserts. On page 6 of their owner's manual at http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/4017_263.pdf, they state:
Vented gas log sets, gas or wood inserts, or gas log lighters can be installed in this fireplace. Follow the instructions provided with the accessory for operation.
Majestic uses the exact same phrasing to allow wood or gas inserts. (view their manual at http://www.majesticproducts.com/Products/Sovereign-Wood-Burning-Fireplace.aspx)
FMI's manual at http://fmisupport.hcents.com/supportdocs/124379-01B1.pdf still states:
WARNING:
Do not install a fireplace insert in this box unless the manufacturer's instructions with the insert specifically state this fireplace has been tested for use with this insert.
IMP, manufacturer of Superior fireplaces, is also still in CYA mode: their zero clearance fireplace homeowner's manual at http://fmisupport.hcents.com/supportdocs/124379-01B1.pdf still says;
IHP does not recommend or authorize the use of any insert in our fireplaces and will assume no responsibility for any damages caused by an insert.
Which doesn't mean you can't install an insert and liner which have been specifically listed for installation in zero-cans in a Superior or FMI fireplace: it just means that those manufacturers might be out of the liability loop in the unlikely event that the insert/liner installation causes any damage.
Perhaps the biggest player, Heatilator, now specifically allows installation of wood or gas inserts. On page 6 of their owner's manual at http://downloads.hearthnhome.com/installManuals/4017_263.pdf, they state:
Vented gas log sets, gas or wood inserts, or gas log lighters can be installed in this fireplace. Follow the instructions provided with the accessory for operation.
Majestic uses the exact same phrasing to allow wood or gas inserts. (view their manual at http://www.majesticproducts.com/Products/Sovereign-Wood-Burning-Fireplace.aspx)
FMI's manual at http://fmisupport.hcents.com/supportdocs/124379-01B1.pdf still states:
WARNING:
Do not install a fireplace insert in this box unless the manufacturer's instructions with the insert specifically state this fireplace has been tested for use with this insert.
IMP, manufacturer of Superior fireplaces, is also still in CYA mode: their zero clearance fireplace homeowner's manual at http://fmisupport.hcents.com/supportdocs/124379-01B1.pdf still says;
IHP does not recommend or authorize the use of any insert in our fireplaces and will assume no responsibility for any damages caused by an insert.
Which doesn't mean you can't install an insert and liner which have been specifically listed for installation in zero-cans in a Superior or FMI fireplace: it just means that those manufacturers might be out of the liability loop in the unlikely event that the insert/liner installation causes any damage.
I totally disagree. How can you pick and choose which set of instructions to follow? If one set clearly says it cant be done then it cant be done without voiding the ul listing on that unit. And once that unit is no longer a ul listed appliance none of those inserts are allowed to be installed in it. So the only one left in the liability loop is the installer. Now the ones that allow it that is obviously perfectly fine. I did not know that majestics allowed it now to
bholler said:
If one set clearly says it cant be done then it cant be done without voiding the ul listing on that unit.
bholler, don't get me wrong here, I didn't intend to start an argument. It's just that thousands of people look to this website for information from helpful professionals like you, and I think it is super important that the info presented be accurate. Here are some points that might be worthy of consideration:
1) Heatilator and Majestic now specifically allow installation of inserts, but that doesn't mean their fireplaces are UL listed for that application, because they're not. I've been told that there isn't even a UL testing protocol for manufactured fireplaces that would allow or disallow installation of an insert (although there is a testing protocol for inserts that allows them to be listed for installation in manufactured fireplaces). The point here is, installation of an insert cannot void the UL listing on a manufactured fireplace, because installation of an insert was never part of that listing.
2) This is not to say it wouldn't affect the manufacturer's warranty, as FMI and Superior's statements seem to imply. However, it should be noted that if you're not the original purchaser of the fireplace, or if it has been in place for more than ten years, your warranty coverage is expired anyway.
3) While it is true that manufactured fireplace chimneys are typically not 2100 deg. class HT, a properly installed insert will be connected to an insulated liner that does have the 2100 deg. HT listing. Once the approved liner system is in place, the insert is no longer venting into the manufactured fireplace's chimney.
If one set clearly says it cant be done then it cant be done without voiding the ul listing on that unit.
bholler, don't get me wrong here, I didn't intend to start an argument. It's just that thousands of people look to this website for information from helpful professionals like you, and I think it is super important that the info presented be accurate. Here are some points that might be worthy of consideration:
1) Heatilator and Majestic now specifically allow installation of inserts, but that doesn't mean their fireplaces are UL listed for that application, because they're not. I've been told that there isn't even a UL testing protocol for manufactured fireplaces that would allow or disallow installation of an insert (although there is a testing protocol for inserts that allows them to be listed for installation in manufactured fireplaces). The point here is, installation of an insert cannot void the UL listing on a manufactured fireplace, because installation of an insert was never part of that listing.
2) This is not to say it wouldn't affect the manufacturer's warranty, as FMI and Superior's statements seem to imply. However, it should be noted that if you're not the original purchaser of the fireplace, or if it has been in place for more than ten years, your warranty coverage is expired anyway.
3) While it is true that manufactured fireplace chimneys are typically not 2100 deg. class HT, a properly installed insert will be connected to an insulated liner that does have the 2100 deg. HT listing. Once the approved liner system is in place, the insert is no longer venting into the manufactured fireplace's chimney.
It can because if you modify that listed appliance so it is not in the tested form it no longer meets the requirements of its listing.
I agree and that is why I advise the way i do.
What listing is that covered under?
If there is no problem with it why do csia and nfi both say not to do it?
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