I would really like to use my stove right now. . . .

[begreen]

The problem is us, not the govt. We are often very self-centered and lousy at self-policing. Many would balk if there were actual EPA police patrolling our neighborhoods and regularly fining the worst offenders. Yet the problem can be so bad that in some neighborhoods this would be like shooting fish in a barrel.

 

[johnstra]

don't make the mistake of thinking the govt is somehow "better". The problem is both us and the govt. The ratio of rotten apples to good apples is the roughly the same inside and outside the population that comprises the govt. Not saying they are necessarily worse... just saying it's silly to assume they are somehow "better".

ok, I apologize for the editorial tangent. I'm usually better at refraining

 

[begreen]

I'm not putting anyone or thing on a pedestal. The gubmint is US.

 

[Elderthewelder]

Many would balk if there were actual EPA police patrolling our neighborhoods and regularly fining the worst offenders.

I saw a news report on one of our local stations that they were indeed doing this, however issuing a warning for first time offenders. I believe it was in Pierce county, Tacoma area


and this from the Puget sound clean air website

"Burn ban enforcement has significantly increased in the Tacoma-Pierce County Smoke Reduction Zone. Wood burning during a ban may result in a fine, with fines in the past reaching $1,000. Increased enforcement and night patrols will increase the likelihood of violators receiving substantial fines this season."

 

[Highbeam]

I find the 1000$ fine offensive. Far too high and does not match the crime. You can speed through a school zone and only get a fraction of the penalty.

 

[Cynnergy]

I wish we had a burn ban here some days - I spent all of Monday watching heavy smoke belching out of a neighbour's chimney 5 doors up (and their house is across the street from a junior school).

All day.

Interesting what you see sometimes working from home.

 

[Dave A.]

I don't understand why the stove industry hasn't taken a proactive stance on this sort of thing-- offering up sensible model legislation that would take into consideration particulate emissions of the equipment.

 

[Ashful]

The problem is us, not the govt.

With all due respect, and not to take this thread further astray, but I have a serious issue with your thinking there, begreen. Constitutionally, the govt IS us. Most of the problems and dissatisfaction we feel today stem from the simple fact that those on the inside have succeeded in orchestrating a system in which that fact is almost impossible for us to remember. Don't forget it!

If you don't like a local reg., get involved, and change it. It's not so lofty, or out of reach.

 

[begreen]

If you don't like a local reg., get involved, and change it. It's not so lofty, or out of reach.

That actually enforces my point, the govt. is us. However, I am not for changing the local reg any more than I am for changing EPA regs on cleaner burning stoves. Our area is growing rapidly in population. More people mean more burning. As much as a pita it is, I agree with the regulation. It wasn't done arbitrarily. This is first and foremost a health issue. The air quality today is going to be poor. This affects the elderly and very young in particular. Ignoring air quality is a cost to us all living here in this geography.

 

[oldspark]

So a EPA stove is a magic box and burns clean even if you have an idiot running it, I dont think so, I can burn my non EPA stove very cleanly and I do.
Sure a EPA stove burns cleaner but I can have a very good fire going in the shop with no smoke or very little.

 

[begreen]

There were a few early attempts at cleaner burning by some companies. Some did a reasonably decent job. The Nashua, like the Kent Tile Fire, was not your average pre-EPA stove. Both had a secondary burn system. However, if you put some instruments on these stoves it wouldn't surprise me to will find them putting out 5 to 10x particulates over current EPA stoves, even with no visible smoke.

 

[oldspark]

There were a few early attempts at cleaner burning by some companies. Some did a reasonably decent job. The Nashua, like the Kent Tile Fire, was not your average pre-EPA stove. Both had a secondary burn system. However, if you put some instruments on these stoves it wouldn't surprise me to will find them putting out 5 to 10x particulates over current EPA stoves, even with no visible smoke.

All it had was a baffle, the same as many other stoves of the period, the discussion talked about visable smoke and I can reduce that to little or none on the old stove.
I stated the EPA stoves burn cleaner, even in a no smoke fire the EPA stove will be cleaner.
A hot fire is an efficient fire, if hot enough the gases are consumed in the fire box or the lower part of the stove pipe.
You may have missed my point, the operator has a lot to do with clean burning.

 

[begreen]

Yes, you're right. I'm thinking of the original VC stoves. We totally agree, the stove operator is an important part of cleaner burning.

 

[Highbeam]

So a EPA stove is a magic box and burns clean even if you have an idiot running it, I dont think so, I can burn my non EPA stove very cleanly and I do.
Sure a EPA stove burns cleaner but I can have a very good fire going in the shop with no smoke or very little.

Your government has determined that epa stoves release less than half of the pollution as non-epa. They are always right......

 

[begreen]

Actually, when tested locally a clean burning smoke dragon run with no smoke came in around 25gph particulate. It's not uncommon for old smoke dragons to run in the 40-80gph range. Your stove is magnitudes cleaner.

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoarticl.htm)

 

[Highbeam]

I wish we had a burn ban here some days - I spent all of Monday watching heavy smoke belching out of a neighbour's chimney 5 doors up (and their house is across the street from a junior school).

All day.

Interesting what you see sometimes working from home.

You are totally missing the point. At all times, that behavior is illegal and subject to fines. Has nothing to do with a burn ban and in fact would typically not be solved by a burn ban that would negatively effect all of us.

 

[Highbeam]

Actually, when tested locally a clean burning smoke dragon run with no smoke came in around 25gph particulate. Your stove is a magnitude cleaner.

Nope, the government already concluded 50%. It's on our clean air website. Don't worry, their propoganda is full of errors and other assumptions made by complete idiots with an obvious bias against wood burning.

 

[begreen]

I agree that's an erroneous spec. It runs contrary to what I have read. Even a poorly maintained EPA stove can burn 500% dirtier than new as tested in OR.

(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoepareg.htm)
(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hoepareg.htm)

 

[oldspark]

I wish chimneysweeps "real world" test would have included flue temps, but I think they probably got it right, so no smoke does not pass regulations in your state or any state for that matter?

 

[begreen]

I think you are mixing up regs. There are EPA regs for clean burning and there are WA state regs for new stove sales. And then there are Puget Sound Clean air burn ban regs. Clean smokeless burning is encouraged by all regulating authorities.

 

[oldspark]

I was refering to the 25gph figure, is that too high for all those reg. you mention?

 

[rasp21]

Eastern Wa. State,, Chelan and Douglas county,, Burn ban in effect for the last 5 days. Here it is all outside burning, No fireplace and no uncertified wood stove. Certified stoves are still good to go. My EPA stove is burning, but I am still making sure that I have as small a smoke footprint as is at all possible, just to be as much in compliant as I can be. No need to give anyone a reason to complain. I burn as clean as I can any way, just more cognizant of it in a ban situation. I still see some brush piles burning in our valley, Wenatchee area. I live 6 miles out of town in a rural area and I still burn as clean as I can.

 

[Elderthewelder]

Our area is growing rapidly in population. More people mean more burning. As much as a pita it is, I agree with the regulation./quote]

Yes our area is growing rapidly, however the incoming population is mainly white collar type people working at Microsoft, Amazon, REI, Boeing and are not wood burners, a few of them may have a pellet stove, but overall I doubt they have any effect (except for automobile C02) on our air quality when it comes to wood burning

 

[fire_man]

Glad I don't live in Washington State!

I've visited out there and it's nice, but I'm with you Ray!

 

[begreen]

Yes our area is growing rapidly, however the incoming population is mainly white collar type people working at Microsoft, Amazon, REI, Boeing and are not wood burners, a few of them may have a pellet stove, but overall I doubt they have any effect (except for automobile C02) on our air quality when it comes to wood burning

Who do you think has the fireplace in their condos?