How well does wood seem to heat your home? Looking for subjective answers.

[Oldman47]

There is a huge difference between buying windows and buying a window install. As Ashful observed my numbers were very low compared to what he found, but my costs were for me to buy and then self install windows. His per window cost quote was to have somebody else install them. In my opinion, and it is just that, companies that sell replacement windows are pure rip-off artists. They will sell you a $500 window for $2500 and will spend the whole hour it takes to install them after they are "custom" sized for your particular order. To me that $2000 per hour for labor is why these companies are still in business. The outrageous markup on installing windows means it doesn't take many sales to stay in business. As far as vinyl vs wood trim, the wood trim can be far more expensive, unfinished, than the vinyl but the performance for vinyl windows is much better. I guess it depends on what you consider important on your purchase. Basic windows for a particular window performance level tends to be a bit more costly on vinyl windows, as I know from doing my homework before buying mine. On the other hand, decorative wood trim can totally overwhelm the base cost of any window. Even the raw wood version can be extremely expensive for a no value return.

 

[kennyp2339]

As far as vinyl vs wood trim, the wood trim can be far more expensive, unfinished, than the vinyl but the performance for vinyl windows is much better

I always wondered that? Thanks oldman47!

 

[BKVP]

Yeah the window salesmen have all the facts and figures and know how to make it seam like spending tens of thousands is such a good idea and will save you money. Until they ask how much you spend on heating a cooling and I say a few hundred bucks since I heat all with free wood and don't have a/c in my house. They kind of get caught off guard and stumble around for words!

I worry when I go to sell though the buyers will say something about the old windows. They all work... they let light in and or air in when you open them. They don't really leak noticeably, and the heat loss is probably less then other drafts in the house that I can't seem to fix, so I'm really not interested in replacing them.

Salesmen! When the guy told my wife road noise would be reduced by at least 80%, she pulled out my wallet. Sad part is, he was right. Also, my old leaky windows nearest my chimney would leak a slight smoke smell into the upstairs bedroom. With the modern tight windows, this has never happened.

I really wanted a 70 LS6 Chevelle....but I got new windows!

 

[maple1]

she pulled out my wallet

Ha ha - that's rich.

 

[OHutton]

I really wanted a 70 LS6 Chevelle....but I got new windows!

Ha! I never thought about it that way...that makes me kind of sad.

 

[simple.serf]

We have a 2000 Sq ft raised ranch that was built in 1972 in the middle of a hayfield. We get high winds all winter. When we moved in, everything was original. Whenever the wind blew, our curtains moved. We started with the front door, then the kitchen sliding door. These two made a huge difference. This year, we changed out the windows on the wind side of the house. The rest of the windows will be next year. Last winter was the coldest we have had here, and we used 12 face cords and 250 gallons of oil. I couldn't afford to heat the house without the stove.

A side benefit of tightening up the house has been fewer and fewer mice. What can I say, we live in a hayfield.

 

[Ashful]

There is a huge difference between buying windows and buying a window install. As Ashful observed my numbers were very low compared to what he found, but my costs were for me to buy and then self install windows. His per window cost quote was to have somebody else install them.

Those white pine Andersens at $570 each were with me buying and installing them myself. The $3k - $3.5k per window was installed cost for proper reproduction divided light glazed wood windows in white oak frames, based on various pricing I collected prior to deciding to do mine myself. I have my own shop with my own equipment, so I do 90% of the work myself, but the raw material to rebuild a frame and moldings still costs me more per window than your fully assembled plastic windows. The point was that vinyl is always the lowest cost option, not wood.

spent about $300 to $450 for each window depending on size... Mine are a top quality vinyl, more expensive than the wooden ones...

$3k - $3.5k per window... sounds a bit insane.

This is why most old homes are very small. It cost a lot of money to do EVERYTHING, the way it was done in the 18th century. Proper reproduction of those components is also very expensive, and finding the people who really know 18th century construction is not cheap or easy. You should see what hand-wrought door hardware and rim locks can cost!

Things improved a bit by the time the OP's house was built, but still very expensive compared to what we can do today. Hence the recent explosion of middle-income folk in their McMansions.

 

[Oldman47]

So the real question is why you would want to reproduce 200 to 300 years old technology I guess.

 

[lexybird]

I had 13 Windows replaced By a window contractor in My 2,000
Sq ft split level .cost me about 5,500$ . These are medium grade low E argon vinyl . The crap Windows I had were circa 1978 . They got foggy , they were hard to open and just not sealed well around the frame so I knew the efficiency was very poor compared to a modern tight vinyl .this contractor is an expert on window replacement he averages thousands of Windows a year and is very particular on how they are set and sealed . I was always told new Windows make a vast difference in heating and cooling costs but to be honest after having them a couple years now I can say they really didn't help with energy . They look great they are easy to clean and all but in my case I tend to think replacing Windows should be last thing on your upgrade list . Blown cellulose in the attic was under 300$ and made more difference in my home . Dollar for dollar attic insulation upgrades offered a far better trade off in my case

 

[Ashful]

So the real question is why you would want to reproduce 200 to 300 years old technology I guess.

Now, that's a good question!

Walking into an old house just makes many feel good, I guess. Can't explain that. If you need hard justification, I'll point out that 18th century stone houses in good condition fetch a lot higher $/sq.ft. around here, than any newer home. In fact, examples with original windows and doors have become so rare that they have become very hard to buy. It's normal to see old stone houses in good condition selling well over $1M in neighborhoods of McMansions selling under $700k, so there must be something to this.

 

[OhioBurner©]

I think the window thing really depends on the situation. Now I'm still learning about this stuff, but in my case, our casement windows are so bad on the more warped ones that there's almost a 1/2 inch gap in some areas with no gaps in other areas on the same window. I've weatherstripped them as best I can, but there's still leakage that I can hear. That's the worst room though, and the only one with those style of windows. The rest are single hung which seemed to have fared better. Still, years of rain abuse and neglect has taken their toll on all the windows. I can definitely see the point about not wanting to replace a 1990s window, but a 1930s window?

Well like I said my windows don't noticeably leak, certainly no 1/2" gap! Yeah that would need some attention. I'm just talking about ones that are old, fog up inside, and need replaced just because newer ones are supposedly more efficient.

But if your talking old, then sure, same argument applies. As a matter of fact I was just recently talking to one of my old high school buddies who inherited his parents farm. Very large old farmhouse, not sure of the age or style so I just looked it up on google maps street view to give you an idea...



I don't remember the details but he had quite a lot of really old (100+ yr old I think) single pane windows. I'm not sure if they were maybe the poured glass variety, I haven't but only been inside his house twice in the last couple decades. He got a quote, again I forget the number exactly, but was in the tens of thousands. He said the only way he could afford to do it was go with a more economical vinyl one, so not top of the line. The contractor sort of helped talk him out of it to lol. He said those windows have lasted whatever 100+ years, and new ones would last a fraction of that and look all out of place on his classic home. He was just going to spot repair what needed it and continue on.

 

[Simonkenton]

I agree with lexybird. If you want to cut heating costs put insulation in the attic. Hard for me to see where "upgrading" from an R1 window to an R3 window is going to help much.
Now, people talking about the drapes moving in the wind, you are talking about air leakage around the window. Obviously that is a terrible flaw, and correcting that will be a big help.
In the house I just built I installed 3 Semco windows, they are 38 by 68 and cost $800 each! These are very nice windows, well built and easy to open etc but I just can't get too excited about R3. Not when I just put R40 in the ceiling. R40 in the ceiling is gonna save you some heating costs.

 

[2broke2ride]

I had 13 Windows replaced By a window contractor in My 2,000
Sq ft split level .cost me about 5,500$ . These are medium grade low E argon vinyl . The crap Windows I had were circa 1978 . They got foggy , they were hard to open and just not sealed well around the frame so I knew the efficiency was very poor compared to a modern tight vinyl .this contractor is an expert on window replacement he averages thousands of Windows a year and is very particular on how they are set and sealed . I was always told new Windows make a vast difference in heating and cooling costs but to be honest after having them a couple years now I can say they really didn't help with energy . They look great they are easy to clean and all but in my case I tend to think replacing Windows should be last thing on your upgrade list . Blown cellulose in the attic was under 300$ and made more difference in my home . Dollar for dollar attic insulation upgrades offered a far better trade off in my case

What depth did you blow in the cellulose? I have been looking at this for my similar sized ranch and I was figuring cost more around $700 to do it myself, that's figuring 40 sq ft per bag....... I haven't figured exactly how deep that would be or what the r value would end up at.

 

[Oldman47]

I had cellulose blown into my new 2500 square foot home to result in a nominal R-60. If I recall correctly that was about 18 inches deep at the install. I also have R-40 walls and modern vinyl windows. Last winter I heated that house, including a full basement under it using nothing but a heat pump for about $100 per month. That includes the minimal $20 charge for having a meter for my home and the other $80 for actual usage.

 

[Starstuff]

I had cellulose blown into my new 2500 square foot home to result in a nominal R-60. If I recall correctly that was about 18 inches deep at the install. I also have R-40 walls and modern vinyl windows. Last winter I heated that house, including a full basement under it using nothing but a heat pump for about $100 per month. That includes the minimal $20 charge for having a meter for my home and the other $80 for actual usage.

How did you achieve R-40 walls? Are your studs 2x10 or more???

 

[Simonkenton]

R 60 in the ceiling, and R 40 in the walls! Good God! Like starstuff said, how did you get R40 in the walls?

 

[Ashful]

2x6 construction filled with spray foam and hot-knifed flush will get you just shy of R-40, since that can run R7/inch, but oldman said blown-in cellulose. Blown-in cellulose is usually quoted close to R3/inch. No way it's R40, unless he's framing walls with 2x12 floor joists.

All my recent addititions have used closed cell spray foam, and some are into the R-30's. Incredibly draft-tight. Not sure why anyone would even consider anything else in new construction, these days.

 

[maple1]

Some double up their walls, offsetting the studs - R40 is quite achieveable without using 2x12's. Although I don't know how it was done in the above case.

 

[jotul8e2]

I've had two experiences on point - three, if you count my shop.

I have a house in Colorado at just under 9000 ft. elevation. It is a story and a half, 1400 sq. ft. When I bought it the local propane supplier said the previous owner had been buying 250 gal. of propane some months. The house has six inch walls, a normal number of windows (no 20 ft. glass atrium), and good insulation above the second floor ceiling. I found: half of the north upstairs wall without any insulation at all, only six inches of fiberglass in the attic spaces in the first floor ceiling outside the upstairs walls, a heat duct into the uninsulated attic space (to keep the upstairs plumbing from freezing), no window treatments of any kind, door jam seals broken or missing. I now have R60 or more in all attic spaces, doors properly sealed, storm doors, re-located plumbing and closed the attic heat duct, all wall cavities filled with insulation, and both cellular AND insulated roman shades on all windows. The 90% efficiency furnace will now burn about a gallon of propane a day in winter - 200 gallons a year or less. This is less than what was once used monthly.

I built my own house in SW Missouri - story and a half with 2500 sq. ft., all over a full basement. Six inch walls overlaid by chipboard sheeting overlaid by one inch of foam board with Hardie cement board siding - about R35. Attic insulation blown in about three feet deep. Celular shades on (almost) all windows. This house is all electric with two heat pumps for heat and air. My Jotul Oslo is far too large for the house during the shoulder seasons and the heat pump only costs about a dollar a day in October or April. I burn pretty much 24-7 from mid November to mid March, burning only two to two and a half cords a year.

My shop, next to the Missouri house, is built the same way, except for the foam panels. The widows are also just bare. In spite of the garage door (a really good seal is not possible), this 2000 sq. ft. two story shop building will stay at or above 60 deg. f. using just two milk-barn electric heaters on the 600 watt setting (low), or at 70 deg. with the now-retired Dutchwest catalytic wood stove. I am considering an Englander stove out there, but the electric heat costs about $120 a year, which makes it hard to justify.

Quality windows are only the first step. Cellular shades will cut the heat losses through the best windows by 60% or more, adding R3 to R5 to the R2 or R3 of the window itself. Insulated shades over the cellular shade will add another R3, or even more if you go all out. My Colorado windows are now at least R8 when all shades or curtains are drawn , cutting the heat loss to 1/4 or less of just the bare glass. The difference this makes in comfort is amazing.

 

[Ashful]

Yep, cellular shades on all windows here, too. They make a bigger difference on low R-value modern Windows without storms, than on old windows with 4" dead space between window and storm. The enemy on old windows with storms is always draft, and cellular shades really only help with radiated losses. Radiant losses on old windows with storms is always way lower than even the best modern double-glazed windows. You just can't beat a 4" air gap with a 0.2" air gap, period.

 

[Oldman47]

R-40 was no problem for a self build like mine. I built and fully insulated a 2x6 external wall using Roxul with an R-25 rating. Next up was a thorough vapor barrier of 6 mil plastic. Then I built an inner wall to match with 2x4 studs and again used Roxul at R15. The hardest part was tying the walls to each other so that things can't settle out of synch at windows and doors. I ended up using plywood that extends through both walls as my brace at all openings, then I placed a plywood block at all wall tops to keep critters from taking up residence in the wall space because I left 1/2 inch between those walls for warping on one wall not to affect the other and to give me a place to run wiring with no impact on the R-25 part or the vapor barrier. The extra inner wall probably cost a couple of thousand in materials and of course my time but I thought it was worth the effort.
I did consider using a 2x6 wall and then thick foam sheets on the outer surface but that was going to be expensive and difficult to work with.

 

[Simonkenton]

So, a 2x6 wall, and a 2x4 wall, using Roxul. I never heard of Roxul, I see it insulates a little better than fiberglass.

Why not just build a single wall of 2x10s?

 

[begreen]

Thread has seriously come off the rails Haven't seen a mention of wood heating in almost 40 posts. Window talk belongs in the DYI forum, energy savings in the Green room.

 

[Triple]

I am new here...but have been heating my home primarily with wood for the past 10 years.

I have an old farm house of approximately 1650 square feet. It is two story and the style is salt box. We have our stove (a hearthstone Phoenix) downstairs in the kitchen. This stove heats over 2000 square feet, which is the reason I purchased it vs a smaller stove. I wanted to heat the home without taxing the stove. I currently go through 10 - 12 face cords per year...depending on the winter. I burn it 24/7 only allowing it to go out to clean out the coals once every 7 days or so. The only other heat source I have is two box infrared heaters that help maintain the heat over night. I have one corner fan near the stove to help push the heat.

You asked if it heats enough where we have to walk around in shorts...the answer is most definitely! Even when the temp is well below freezing outside I can get the stove and thus the house hot enough where we are sweating in normal pjs. We have had to crack windows a number of times, the house was so hot. Over the years I have learned how not to do that. I can now keep the home very comfortable. My goal is for the living room to be never cooler than 70 and not over 75. The kitchen is always the hottest due to the stove being in there. The upstairs I try to keep in the 68 to 72 range.

Hope that helps.

 

[DougA]

I knew this thread would get a ton of responses so I left mine until I had more time.

I lived with a slightly undersized stove for 31 years. It was sized correctly according to dealer/mfg. but that becomes pretty subjective. A lot of people are happy with a house in the mid 60s, not me. I like mid 70s.

So last year we decided to upgrade and I wanted to go BIG. Four cubic feet instead of two and a half is a big difference. Boy, is it nice to have more heat than you need! The only problem is that low, slow fires in my stove make the glass dirty but that problem is easy to clean and is no problem when you're burning a good, hot fire in winter. We heat about 2000 sq ft, but the ceiling in the great room is 17 ft, so it's a lot more in total. Our house is well insualted and relatively air tight but after 32 yrs, it starts to show it's age.

To me, the key to comfortable wood heat is a good, insulated and draft free home. Sounds simple but conserving energy is the easiest way to a better life. High ceilings and lots of mass (cement etc) are important to keeping the swings in temps to a minimum. Our home was designed to take advantage of wood heat. Homes that are chopped up into lots of rooms are a real challenge to make them work well.

Our use of hydro for heat is close to zero now and that represents close to $2K in savings per winter. Having a free supply of wood for at least 2 to 3 yrs ahead is essential. Buying wood is OK but truthfully, when you are paying for wood, it always seems easier to turn on the thermostat than haul another load from outside. Wood becomes a lifestyle and is not for everyone.