How well does wood seem to heat your home? Looking for subjective answers.

[Ashful]

Stone... just how would that effect heating though?

Tough to say. Find me someone heating 8000 sq.ft. of log home, and we can compare!

We're running a mix of heating systems that make tracking heating costs a little work. We've just expanded to two BK Ashford 30's, three heat pumps, an oil-fired boiler with 6 zones, propane, and a few zones of electric resistive baseboard. I was running the same last year, minus two heat pumps (we added another 1200 sq.ft. heated space), and two Jotul Firelights where the Ashfords sit. I think the Jotuls were throwing most of my heat into the back yard, through the stone wall in front of which each was installed, a problem which I think we improved 1000x with the change to BK's.

 

[BrotherBart]

Way past time to have a picture tour of that hotel. Be sure to include a pic of the check-in desk and lobby.

 

[Squisher]

No kidding. 8000square, that's a mansion!

 

[Starstuff]

Way past time to have a picture tour of that hotel. Be sure to include a pic of the check-in desk and lobby.

So that explains it...

 

[BrotherBart]

So that explains it...

 

[Oldman47]

Focus on removing all drafts then on insulation. If you can seal up all air infiltration paths you should see a huge improvement in heating and cooling. Once all such are sealed, start looking at upgrading the ceiling insulation. A big part of heat loss, after air leaks is through the ceiling. Heat rises you know. In CA you will probably start to lose ceiling insulation effectiveness around R35 but until then more is better. In central Illinois I have R-60 in my ceilings but we get a bit colder than you do.

 

[olsonbri]

4000 ft here and wood works well but when it dips below 35 for prolonged periods the 'emergency heat' (strip) kicks in. Seems to be the same point at which the heat pump is worthless. Not sure we ever even use the the heat pump with wood burning.

 

[BKVP]

My home is just under 3,000 sq. ft. and we are able to heat it down to zero with just the King. The house is a Sears Craftsman house shipped by rail and built in 1895. The original house was only about 1,200 square feet.

Two things made a huge difference to how much NIELS or cordwood is burned each winter:

1) I have insulated the walls and attic up to R-30. Each time we renovate a portion we rebuild walls to 2 X 6 and insulate even more...plus OSB 1/2" and then siding.

2) The kids moved out! The human component is huge. Both my boys would never bother to close the doors when enter or leaving the home. Although in the 40's last Friday, one son brought over the grandkids and left the front door open for 5 minutes while he packed in kids and kid paraphernalia!

All our plumbing is in the basement but near exterior walls and crawl spaces. So when it drops much below 20, we run the NG furnace and open a register down in the basement...we flood it with heat every 10 hours.

 

[maple1]

I think the Jotuls were throwing most of my heat into the back yard, through the stone wall in front of which each was installed, a problem which I think we improved 1000x with the change to BK's.

Seems that if stone walls can transfer stove heat from inside to outside, they could also transfer winter cold from outside to inside?

 

[Ashful]

Way past time to have a picture tour of that hotel. Be sure to include a pic of the check-in desk and lobby.

Okay. Think you've already seen most of it, but gimme a few days and I'll get some photos together for posting in a separate thread.

Full disclosure, house is only 6660 sq.ft., with another 1200 sq.ft. of always-heated and air conditioned space in my detached carriage house, hence the 8k of heated space comment.

Seems that if stone walls can transfer stove heat from inside to outside, they could also transfer winter cold from outside to inside?

To some degree, yes, but you can't really treat a solid masonry wall as a simple thermal resistor (typical stick frame model). Instead it's a thermal mass, with a pretty decent R value, maybe 20" at R-1 per inch. Trouble is, that thermal mass sits at 53F, almost independently of indoor or outdoor temp. So, when we get a blistering cold snap or a blazing heat wave, I may save more energy than those with the best closed-cell foam insulation. The rest of the year, when we're closer to our average temperature of 53F outside... not so much.

The trouble with the Jotuls is they ran crazy hot on the back, and thence that is from where they radiated a large portion of their energy. With the stoves placed 4" to 6" off an exterior stone wall, the stone just gobbled up the heat. Much of that radiated back into the room, but due to temperature differential, most probably went outside or to the earth. It's a whole different problem when you're discussing a 500+ degree difference between stove back and 53F walls, versus your normal indoor 70F and 53F walls.

 

[Starstuff]

Full disclosure, house is only 6660 sq.ft., with another 1200 sq.ft. of always-heated and air conditioned space in my detached carriage house, hence the 8k of heated space comment.

Thanks for clarifying that. My inferiority complex has been calmed.

 

[Ashful]

Lol... well misery likes company. While most are enjoying their summer, I'm on a ladder working on Windows, gutters, pointing, etc. More sq.ft. just means that every maintenance task is multiplied 4x. Simple things like washing windows have become a major PITA. I did everything myself on previous properties, but here I'm forced to hire out more of the maintenance jobs, just to keep up.

... and to bring it back on topic, I burn 6-10 cords per year, in addition to 1000 gal oil and maybe 150 gal propane. Haven't tried counting the electrons, yet.

 

[iron]

question to those of you talking about air sealing and insulating attic spaces:

do you bother to air seal the drywall-to-top plate lines? i saw a youtube video of someone doing that and it didn't make much sense to me since the drywall is going to be taped and mudded.

i fully understanding sealing around can lights, fans, and other ceiling penetrations is worthwhile, but am curious as to everyone's thoughts.

 

[JA600L]

question to those of you talking about air sealing and insulating attic spaces:

do you bother to air seal the drywall-to-top plate lines? i saw a youtube video of someone doing that and it didn't make much sense to me since the drywall is going to be taped and mudded.

i fully understanding sealing around can lights, fans, and other ceiling penetrations is worthwhile, but am curious as to everyone's thoughts.

You want to seal off any gaps at the top that would be inside the wall cavity. Air can get in past switches and outlets. Typically moving the old insulation aside reveals air movement causing dirty insulation.

 

[OHutton]

Update: So I called our local utility company and they said that they no longer do the audits unless you're low income. So then I called around and finally found an extremely well reputed local contractor who dropped by my house today. He said we could do the test if I wanted, but that it would probably be a waste of money. He said he used to test everything in the beginning when he got his certs in 09, but now he just looks at the construction, in the attic, around the exterior and has a pretty good idea of what the problems are. Once he started pointing things out I realized how much there was to do. Even though I don't have a data point of a leak test, I guess I wasn't surprised.

We chatted for about a little over an hour about my options, which I thought was generous of his time. He seemed genuinely interested in trying to help me figure out the best way to go about it and if it pencils out. He doesn't strike me as one of those guys who wants to treat every job the same way. He told me about all the available rebates out there and the procedures for each of them. Basically, he said the windows need a lot of love and that replacement with a metal clad wood window would be the closest thing within reason for cost because I have so damn many of them. It's part of what gives the house its charm, but also its lack of efficiency. He said he also knows a few professional restorers who do amazing work and love these kinds of projects, but it would cost more to go that route. He told us to think about how long we want to be here, and how original we need to keep it. I tend to want to keep things as original as possible, but it's not exactly a historical house and deep down I'm not a strict preservationist. I can see us living here another 10 years or so before we get the itch to build something.

One thing he suggested was that if I re-side, then to do the windows at the same time so the siding matches up properly. He did say we could re-side the house in stages and do whatever our budget would allow. The worst side of the house also has the worst casement style windows so that seemed like a decent option.

Anyway, it definitely got me thinking. He's slammed at the moment, so it's nice that I have plenty of time. He estimated the cost of the windows at around $40k, but that was just kind of a ballpark. I was hoping they wouldn't be that much, but deep down I feared that amount. One interesting point he made was that people seem to be more concerned with energy efficiency these days when buying houses. He said 10 years ago he wouldn't recommend doing the work, but these days it's a lot easier to get some of that money back when it comes time to sell.

Lots of things to think about.

 

[georgepds]

Update: So I called our local utility company and they said that they no longer do the audits unless you're low income. ....
Lots of things to think about.

To add to your things to think about I recommend the blog below. They have a concept called the pretty good house which balances energy efficiency s cost

http://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/blogs

 

[Oldman47]

40k is huge money for windows unless you have an awful lot of them. I am building a new home and spent about $300 to $450 for each window depending on size. I had 13 in all including 3 double wide ones. Mine are a top quality vinyl, more expensive than the wooden ones, with a good R value and the right low-e thermal glass. 3 of mine were side by side doubles and cost very close to double the price of a single window. I think my total window bill came in at under $7000. If you are going to redo your siding, remove the old windows and install new while the siding is off using "new construction" type windows. It will make the install easier to do and let you get a really good seal around that new window. Use the Great-Stuff that is labeled for windows and doors, not the other crack filling stuff and only apply it when you have enough windows to use up a full can. Once you start using a can of it you are committed. A half hour later what is left of a partial can cannot be used, so advance preparation is key. On my 3 x 4 foot windows I was getting about 2 windows out of a full can.

 

[Ashful]

40k is huge money for windows unless you have an awful lot of them. I am building a new home and spent about $300 to $450 for each window depending on size. I had 13 in all including 3 double wide ones. Mine are a top quality vinyl, more expensive than the wooden ones...

I'm sorry, but you are WAY off-base here. Proper wooden windows typically cost over $2k each, by the time they're installed, even considering the cheapest doug-fir alternatives. We're not discussing Anderson Windows garbage, here. You can't even have a traditional glazed divided light window fully rebuilt for $1k. Heck... glazed wooden STORM windows cost more than $300 each, by the time you add in the hanging hardware. I would put my wood windows at $3k to $3500 each, for full replacement with a new wooden storm, if I were paying for the labor. Price out kiln-dried white oak at 16/4 thickness, and then figure you need 36 BF per window for the frame and sill, alone!

BTW... I did buy Anderson Windows for my barn, but even those came to $570 each, in a common standard size. WDH2436 in white clear pine with low-e4 glass, divided light with spacer, fixed wood grille interior, fixed white grille exterior, with screen. I'm not sure where you're going, implying very good windows can be bought for $300.

 

[Knots]

I have a 1400 sq ft house with a walk-out basement, a garage under, and an attached garage. I heat with a Jotul F55 from the basement.

The walls are 2x8, it's R39 in the attic (going to R47 soon), good quality windows, and the entire foundation has 4" of foam board.

During last winter (brrrr) I burned less than 3 cords. I did not burn all the time, propane kept it at 55 when I wasn't home, but I burned most of the time.

It takes a little while to get the whole house up to temp, but once it is it's easy to keep it there. The bleed-through heat into the garages kept them above freezing even when it was 20 below.

Insulation is wonderful...

 

[sean b]

$3k - $3.5k per window... sounds a bit insane.

 

[maple1]

$3k - $3.5k per window... sounds a bit insane.

25 of them and I would be over the total of what I spent when I built my 2 story 2700 sq. ft. house 20 years ago. And it has 28 windows.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Yeah windows are ridiculous. Yet that is one of the biggest recommended things to do. Now I haven't sat down and actually calculated out numbers, but my supervisor just got his average sized house re-windowed for 20-some grand and my place has old windows - about 24 of them from around 1990 ish. Many get foggy moisture on the inside. But I think spending 20 grand is nuts. No matter how well insulated they are they would never save me 20 grand in heating costs unless they lasted a long time and I was heating with propane and the price skyrocketed. And the crappy thing is they will probably need replaced again in 20 or 30 years. Between pellets and mostly free firewood I don't spend much more than a grand total on heating, let alone just the little extra heat old windows will need. I just don't see windows as a good investment unless you got cash to burn for little payback. Just IMHO and YMMV.

 

[sean b]

Yeah windows are ridiculous. Yet that is one of the biggest recommended things to do. Now I haven't sat down and actually calculated out numbers, but my supervisor just got his average sized house re-windowed for 20-some grand and my place has old windows - about 24 of them from around 1990 ish. Many get foggy moisture on the inside. But I think spending 20 grand is nuts. No matter how well insulated they are they would never save me 20 grand in heating costs unless they lasted a long time and I was heating with propane and the price skyrocketed. And the crappy thing is they will probably need replaced again in 20 or 30 years. Between pellets and mostly free firewood I don't spend much more than a grand total on heating, let alone just the little extra heat old windows will need. I just don't see windows as a good investment unless you got cash to burn for little payback. Just IMHO and YMMV.

That's just it; there's got to be some balance AND some kind of reasonable payback. At some point, you're not going to live long enough to see it happen. If the windows are properly installed (in addition to the house being properly insulated and sided), it would seem to me that most middle class folks who spend more than 4-5 bills per window (window only; not installation cost) are wasting their money.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Yeah the window salesmen have all the facts and figures and know how to make it seam like spending tens of thousands is such a good idea and will save you money. Until they ask how much you spend on heating a cooling and I say a few hundred bucks since I heat all with free wood and don't have a/c in my house. They kind of get caught off guard and stumble around for words!

I worry when I go to sell though the buyers will say something about the old windows. They all work... they let light in and or air in when you open them. They don't really leak noticeably, and the heat loss is probably less then other drafts in the house that I can't seem to fix, so I'm really not interested in replacing them.

 

[OHutton]

I think the window thing really depends on the situation. Now I'm still learning about this stuff, but in my case, our casement windows are so bad on the more warped ones that there's almost a 1/2 inch gap in some areas with no gaps in other areas on the same window. I've weatherstripped them as best I can, but there's still leakage that I can hear. That's the worst room though, and the only one with those style of windows. The rest are single hung which seemed to have fared better. Still, years of rain abuse and neglect has taken their toll on all the windows. I can definitely see the point about not wanting to replace a 1990s window, but a 1930s window?

If I knew I was only going to be in this house for the next 3-5 years then I would just kick the problem down the line for the next poor buyer to deal with. But we have a 10 year plan to be here before building. So unless I get some inheritance from a long lost uncle, I probably won't be leaving any time soon. I'd like to make the house as comfortable as I can in that time instead of being miserable. By the way, the summers here are terrible with temps regularly getting above 105 and often into the teens. It's not just the cold that makes it tough.