How well does wood seem to heat your home? Looking for subjective answers.

[toddnic]

A subjective view....this morning it was raining and 56 degrees outside. I turned on the propane furnace to take the chill out of the house since the woodstove would have run us out of the home. That got the house to 68 degrees inside. Currently it is in the mid-30's outside since the cold front came through. The woodstove is burning and the house is around 74 degrees (a little too warm but the wife likes it). If I were heating with propane it would be costing me a fortune. Heating with wood is great!

The house is 2,400 sq. ft. and we can keep it really warm even at subzero temps with the woodstove. No need to supplement with the propane furnace unless I'm feeling lazy

 

[OHutton]

Thanks for all the recommendations. I tried searching for a thread like this, but I didn't really come across anything this informative. All the advice is welcome.

I think the siding, sealing, insulation will do a fair bit, but I also think our windows will need some TLC. The house is really a great place with a ton of charm, so I'm trying to do my best to balance efficiency with keeping it looking original. I'm definitely going to consider wood windows one day down the road just so I don't mess with the look too much. Maybe I can find original looking fiberglass windows. Another alternative I found were wood window restorers. I don't know if we have anyone local, but they basically rebuild, restore, weatherstrip, etc your original windows. They're really beautiful, made with old growth wood, etc. I'd hate to see them just go to the landfill.

One day, when we build a place—maybe in 10 years, maybe in 20—I want to go super insulated and try and go off the grid as much as possible. Solar, greywater recycling, maybe even geothermal cooling (I hear it works better for cooling than heating). We have the benefit here in CA of having really cheap natural gas, but as fracking becomes gets more and more controversial (not trying to get political here), I can't see the prices staying cheap forever. The less I can depend on the man, the better. Low maintenance exterior, large eves, metal roof, the whole nine yards. The way I look at it is I have plenty of time to really think about exactly what I want. The best part is I have a wife that doesn't really care about design that much and likes what I like for the most part. She even says I can put a urinal in our master bath one day! How cool is that?!

 

[FPX Dude]

Ohutton, I'm just down the road in Sacto. The first thing is to seal the air draft and then insulate. It's like having a windbreaker coat on with the front not zipped, yes still wide open, so "zip it up". Then get on to the other improvements. I also had a home energy audit and found such things as can lights in ceilings with no insulation, windows, and attic vents as culprits, and huge issues. People think it's Cali-wali so who needs insulation. Yet, they don't build houses here like the rest of the country that have to deal with such things in mind as snow and other things.

 

[Ashful]

I can answer your questions on window restoration, as I'm spending a small fortune in time and money on this now. I will say that an old single-pane window with a well fitted storm can outperform any modern double-glazed replacement window, if you put the effort and expense into it.

In response to Smoked, I've been running my two stoves since early October. I used to kill myself loading two Jotul Firelights 2 or 3 times per day, so I switched to BK. Now I load one of them once per day, the other twice, and they just cruise 24/7. Anyone can handle three loads per day.

 

[Heftiger]

I'm not too far away from you in Susanville. I know a few people here who are in love with their Blaze King Princess inserts. The initial cost is more, but I think it's worth it. We burn almost exclusively pine over here, and with the princess inserts they can still get overnight burns.

 

[blades]

If your place is constructed in the balloon fashion ( that meaning the side walls are open at the top) that is going to have to be addressed. You can do a quick check by going into attic and just feeling for air movement at the roof wall junction. You will know a lot more when you redo the siding. Recently not far from and old place ( 1800's) was renovated- they took the outside walls right down to the bare studs and sealed that place up like a zip lock baggie.

 

[OHutton]

they took the outside walls right down to the bare studs and sealed that place up like a zip lock baggie.

That's what I'm talking about!

 

[OHutton]

I can answer your questions on window restoration, as I'm spending a small fortune in time and money on this now. I will say that an old single-pane window with a well fitted storm can outperform any modern double-glazed replacement window, if you put the effort and expense into it.

Can I ask what the cost of restoration vs new wood windows was? 2x the cost? I don't need a dollar figure. I've heard the insulative value of dual pane is negligible and that most efficiency just comes from being airtight.

 

[iamlucky13]

I've heard the insulative value of dual pane is negligible and that most efficiency just comes from being airtight.

I don't know how much the improvement in leakage is a factor, but the insulating value of dual pane is not negligible.

Insulating value is described by the U-factor, which is 1/R-value. So a typical U=0.35 dual pane window filled with a low-convection gas like argon to reduce heat transfer between the panes is about R2.9, and a top end U=0.25 window is R4.

Supposedly a single pane glass window has a U factor around 1.25, which is R0.8.

R2.9 vs. R0.8 doesn't seem like much compared to typical R13-R19 walls, but it actually ends up being pretty significant. You can potentially lose 3.5 times as much heat through a single pane window as through a modern double pane.

I just happened to have run a heat loss calculation on my home yesterday.* Although the U=0.35 windows on my house only cover a bit over 10% of the wall area, the calculator estimated they represent almost 30% of the heat loss through my walls, or about 10% of my total household heat loss (including floors, ceilings, and a really rough estimate for total leakage).

Running the calculator again with U=1.25, it says I would actually lose almost 50% more heat through single pane windows than through the walls themselves, and nearly 1/3 of my total household heat loss would be through the windows.

* The calculated heat loss seems to roughly agree with the rated output and runtimes of my heat pump, so I'm reasonably confident this calculator is in the general ballpark.

 

[Ashful]

Yep. In fact, an old single pane with a storm window will always radiate way less than a modern double-glazed, due to the enormous air space (4" = 40x 0.25"). The trouble with old windows is always draft, which can be addressed with an assortment of sprung or interlocking metal weatherstripping options.

Cost depends on what needs to be done. You could strip and reglaze your sash by yourself, for a few dollars per sash. It can be done fairly easily, with a small investment in building a steamer box. If you want to pay someone to do that for you, think somewhere around $800 per window, just for the sash stripping, repair, and re-glazing. If you need to rebuild the frame, that could be an additionl $500 to $1500 per window, depending on complexity. The addition of sprung or interlocking weatherstripping can be $50 per window for DIY or up to $200 per window for a pro to do interlocking for you.

You should check out wavyglass.org, if you want to learn just about all there is to know about rebuilding old windows.

 

[iamlucky13]

Is the restoring done in place, or do you have to remove the window? If done in place, it seems the OP could do the other work first, then do the windows one or a handful at a time as his time or budget allow.

 

[futzol]

I too am burning with the osburn matrix insert. I heat around 1500 square feet (4.5 rooms) and have no problem keeping the house at 72 degrees. I live right off lake ontario (about 1/10 of a mile from the shore), and we get to -20 in the winter, -40 wind chill. At -20 the stove can keep the house at 70-72. Wind whips... and tears all my tarps off my wood, doesnt matter if i have the tarps genetically grown into the wood, the wind will find a way to remove the tarp. My house is extremely well insulated, 6 inch walls, new windows double pane... I had to let the fire burn out the past couple of days because at 30 degrees F outside, the house gets up to 75-78 degrees... and since i put my shorts away for the winter i cant get comfortable in that heat...

Key to keeping the house warm is a buttoned up, sealed house. Good seasoned wood helps burn a hotter more efficient fire, addition of a block off plate helps keep a lot of the heat from escaping up the dead space in the chimney...

good luck with your house audit!

Cheers.

 

[Dobish]

Just getting into burning wood in our new place, but it is a bizarre setup and i don't think it will ever be very efficient. I have no idea how much wood I am going to go through! The house was built in the 1860's, and then again in the 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, 00's, and 10's and is roughly 1900sqft. Part of the house is log cabin with no insulation, parts are 2x6 with full insulation, parts are 2x4 with some insulation, and then there are the parts that are assorted screwed together logs and lumber with no insulation where the mice and snakes get in! And then there are the concrete block sections.... We replaced all of the single pane windows and doors in the top floor, tore out most of the drywall and built out the walls for 2x6 and added insulation. We still have 1 old single pane window, and you can tell that it is not worthy! We sealed up all of the cracks and gaps, and took care of most of the drafty spots. The themostat is upstairs, and prior to the insulation, the furnace would cycle on about every 30-45 minutes (set at 67 when we are home, 61 if we are not). After the insulation party, we find that it cycles on every 1.5-2 hours.

The basement is a different story. that is where we put the stove, and after replacing the doors and windows where the wood stove is, and blocking off some of the rooms that don't get used (we use heavy curtains so the dog can go through/I didn't want to have to custom cut another crooked door) it stayed around 58-60 when the thermostat was set to 67. the insulation is terrible in the basement, and we actually have since found that there are major parts that are not insulated. With the stove at low-medium temps we are getting the main room cranked up to 74/76, and our room at the end of the hall will warm up to around 62. Eventually we will get around to tearing everything out and re-insulating, but we are sort of done with the mess for the time being.

Our last place was an 1800sqft townhouse built in 1978, and it had a wood fireplace. When i first bought it in 2006, the windows were super drafty and you could see curtains moving when the windows were closed and it was windy out. I dealt with it for about 2 years, and then decided to replace all of the windows, add insulation to the attic, and put draft strips on the doors. Our bill dropped by about 50% when we did that, and then when i replaced an old sliding door, we actually had to open a window when cooking so the place wouldn't steam up! We still have it as a rental, and over thanksgiving the furnace went out. It was in the low teens to mid 20's for about 5 days, and the house stayed around 57º. I dropped off a load of wood for the tenants, and when I went back the next day after they had a fire, it was up to 61.

Overall, you can't go wrong with more insulation. The more you can replace and seal off when you have access, the better off you are. By spending a bit more on insulation, you will be saving yourself a ton in the future!

 

[Ashful]

Is the restoring done in place, or do you have to remove the window? If done in place, it seems the OP could do the other work first, then do the windows one or a handful at a time as his time or budget allow.

Easiest way is to remove the sash from the frame, which is an easy job, since traditional windows are made with this in mind. Usually pull one side stop, and the sash come right out. I just cut a sheet of plywood to fill the hole while the sash are being reworked on a window, and since all windows on a given floor are usually identical, you can reuse that piece as you work your way around the house. I have 26 windows on four floors, installed sometime around 1776-1779, and they're in just three sizes.

 

[BKVP]

Easiest way is to remove the sash from the frame, which is an easy job, since traditional windows are made with this in mind. Usually pull one side stop, and the sash come right out. I just cut a sheet of plywood to fill the hole while the sash are being reworked on a window, and since all windows on a given floor are usually identical, you can reuse that piece as you work your way around the house. I have 26 windows on four floors, installed sometime around 1776-1779, and they're in just three sizes.

Ashful..when I'm in Philly (King of Prussia) next I got to see your house

 

[Ashful]

Ashful..when I'm in Philly (King of Prussia) next I got to see your house

Any time, Chris! I hope you like construction zones.

Working on designing a small built-in library right now. Construction to start in January, in what was the original 1770's kitchen of the house. Of course, there's a Blaze King Ashford 30.1 in there.

 

[Simonkenton]

RFarm: A straw bale house with R65 in the walls. Good Lord! You can heat that thing with a candle on the dining room table.
My mom is your neighbor, I built her a log cabin in 1998 near Dawsonville.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Not very well. Don't think my insulation is very good (non-existant in some places), and drafty. ~2400 sqft and running 2 stoves and can't keep on on cold or windy days well. Doing some renovations that should help alot but realized no way I can seal up the biggest air leaks. Can't wait to ditch this place but it may be several years yet.

I have a 20 year old log cabin that I built, is very snug and warm and well insulated. I have little Waterford stove and it does a great job of heating the house. On a 20 degree day I get 67 degrees in the living room and 65 degrees in the bedroom upstairs.

How exactly is a cabin well insulated? Just the ceiling? I'm really wanting a small log home, for many reasons, but not sure haven't got as far as figuring exact cost compared to a well insulated stick built (preferably something solid like foam, I'm sick of air leaks and rodents burrowing through and living in the walls, bees, etc).

 

[JA600L]

I heat around 1800sqft from the basement of my rancher. I had an energy audit done. I air sealed and insulated the attic, insulated the garage ceiling below bedrooms, and insulated the basement for the Woodstove. I installed all new Okna insul tec windows and insulated garage doors. I still only have 2x4 walls, but those improvements alone were worth every penny. I can utilize the long burn ability of my stove and go away with confidence that I won't return to a cold house. It also took a major load off of my air conditioner.

 

[Simonkenton]

Not very well. Don't think my insulation is very good (non-existant in some places), and drafty. ~2400 sqft and running 2 stoves and can't keep on on cold or windy days well. Doing some renovations that should help alot but realized no way I can seal up the biggest air leaks. Can't wait to ditch this place but it may be several years yet.


How exactly is a cabin well insulated? Just the ceiling? I'm really wanting a small log home, for many reasons, but not sure haven't got as far as figuring exact cost compared to a well insulated stick built (preferably something solid like foam, I'm sick of air leaks and rodents burrowing through and living in the walls, bees, etc).

For a log cabin to be well insulated, we start with the chinking. The chinking on my cabin is four inches thick of foam, I use that spray in foam called Great Stuff.
It expands after you spray it in and it seals all cracks and crevasses in the chinking gap. I then cover that chinking with a half inch mix of Portland Cement, sand, and red clay. This gives the look that the pioneers had, they used red clay, but the strength and permanence of cement.

Then, I spend a lot of money on windows. I use expensive insulated double pane windows.
Then, where you really go to town in the roof insulation. Tricky, and expensive to insulate a cathedral ceiling. I have exposed 4 x 10 rafters, the ceiling above that is spruce 2x6s. Above that, I have 8 inches of foam, this comes in 4 x 8 sheets two inches thick, and 8 inches gives you R40.
I live on top of a mountain in North Carolina and the wind blowing up from the French Broad River valley is really something in the winter, with the leaves down. The wind in winter will blow all night at 40 mph. However, this is the most snug, warmest house I have ever lived in.

 

[Ashful]

I'm really wanting a small log home, for many reasons, but not sure haven't got as far as figuring exact cost compared to a well insulated stick built (preferably something solid like foam, I'm sick of air leaks and rodents burrowing through and living in the walls, bees, etc).

For air-tight and rodent-proof, you can't beat a traditional colonial (era, not style) stone home. Simply put, cold air and rodents can't penetrate 20" of solid stone and mud. Log homes are temporary structures, but stone is forever.

Having family who has owned both new and original log homes, the thing that annoys me most about log homes is the constant battle with carpenter bees and other wood-boring bugs.

 

[Starstuff]

I lived in Chico for 8 years and spent many a night in an old drafty Chico home. I know exactly what you're talking about. Those houses were often built without any insulation whatsoever--maybe newspaper stuffed in the walls or something. The poor insulation made the summer more bearable in the days before air conditioning. (For folks not familiar with Chico, the average summer temp is around 95F from May to September, and it regular exceeds 100 for weeks at a time.)

Your #1 goal should be to insulate. Energy audit would be good, but a lot of it is just common sense. Check your weather stripping and seal leaks around doors and windows with foam. Best investment right now would be to blow insulation into your attic--a good foot of it. That will help immensely. An OAK might improve your current situation but would not be necessary once you make improvements to insulation and seals.

Also, as a couple people mentioned, a catalytic stove would be ideal in Chico climate. You could run it on the lowest setting the entire winter and only refill once a day at the most. It would totally be worth the investment. I plan to eventually move back to the North State, and I will be getting a catalytic stove when I do.

Even with moderate shoring-up of the insulation and leaks, I don't think it would be unreasonable at all for you to expect to heat exclusively with wood all winter long with 2-3 cords. My brother heats a well-insulated, newer-construction rancher up in Redding using an EPA insert, and he barely goes through 2 cords (but supplements with propane).

 

[OhioBurner©]

For air-tight and rodent-proof, you can't beat a traditional colonial (era, not style) stone home. Simply put, cold air and rodents can't penetrate 20" of solid stone and mud. Log homes are temporary structures, but stone is forever.

Having family who has owned both new and original log homes, the thing that annoys me most about log homes is the constant battle with carpenter bees and other wood-boring bugs.

The log option is still just an idea. Stone... just how would that effect heating though? With a poured wall at least you can add some insulation inside... I remember reading the fellow here that did a thermal mass home with concrete walls that had a foam layer inside. That is certainly an option.

Yeah wood boring insects seem to be one of the biggest problems. But a lot of the time it seems like those with issues didn't put a lot of effort into removing the mill glaze initially from the logs and borates before using a proven quality finish. Still though, as opposed to a stick home with hollow walls at least you can see the problem immediately and take care of it the same day even, instead of something festering in the walls for months or years.

 

[Simonkenton]

Yes, carpenter bees are my nemesis. I did paint down the house with that clear borate stuff, but that doesn't stop carpenter bees.
I did put a thick coat of log cabin stain on the house, that will slow the little b&%**&^!! down. I put up carpenter bee traps and kill lots of them that way.
Also I have killed 78 in one day with a badminton racquet. You can get better racquet speed with a badminton racquet than with a tennis racquet.

Also it is good fun to load up the little .22 revolver with rat shot and blow them out of the sky.

I have had more trouble with carpenter bees on the big timbers that form the porch roof than on the logs. In 19 years I only have had 5 carpenter bee holes in the logs.

If you are thinking about building a house, I would tell you that log houses are the most expensive house you can build. I am serving as my own general contractor, I am the expert log carpenter [this is a custom log house I cut all the notches with saws and big chisels] and I also am my own electrician, plus I did the concrete footings myself, and yet, the money gushes forth from my checking account.
Unbelievable how expensive new construction is these days.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Good to hear some first hand feedback Simon! 78 in one day sounds crazy! I too plan on doing a lot of the work myself, at least electric, most plumbing, and most interior work. What I figured is more likely is I buy a really old house for cheap (and cheap taxes) and renovate it but after working on my nightmare of an old house I was daydreaming how nice it would be to start from scratch. Plenty of time yet to do more research. Just gathering up ideas. But we are getting a bit off topic. I am just so frustrated with not being able to tighten up this old house that a solid - walled house sure sounded nice (and dealing with all the rodents and insects getting in my walls... that I can't get to or see). I may throw up my own post here sometime about my air sealing woes.