Healthcare

[woodnomore]

If anyone still believes national medical care is a good idea after watching the quagmire explain to me why.

 

[Ashful]

Wonder where the new ventilators are? Well the Pentagon reports it has 2000 and has been waiting for 2 weeks to hear from HHS where they are to be delivered.

Meanwhile in Seattle, Ventec is a local company that was going to be contracted, but suddenly the govt. backed out. The spin that we are hearing from DC does not jibe with what Ventec is saying in the local papers. Here are the update and backstory on the GM ventilator deal and the crazy reason for this happening. It's a long one, click on this to get to the timeline and the supporting links. The good news is that GM and Ventec have said screw you to DC and are making them anyway.
GM is making ventilators in spite of DC.

Sounds like the pres is favoring using companies that manufacture in the US, versus one that moved their manufacturing to Mexico. You think that’s a bad thing?

Here’s what happens when American manufacturers make critical product overseas:

How Decades of Offshoring Led to a Mask Shortage in a Pandemic

US companies have shifted production overseas, especially to China. We got cheaper products. But now we can't make vital health care supplies.

www.google.com

 

[bholler]

If anyone still believes national medical care is a good idea after watching the quagmire explain to me why.

Well our current system is a complete mess when it comes to the financial aspect of it. But the first thing that needs done is to get rid of the childish partisan politics we currently are crippled by. After that is done we can start to work on other problems. But nothing will be accomplished untill that happens.

 

[begreen]

This makes me very sad and mad. This is not great again.

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[begreen]

Sounds like the pres is favoring using companies that manufacture in the US, versus one that moved their manufacturing to Mexico. You think that’s a bad thing?

Here’s what happens when American manufacturers make critical product overseas:

How Decades of Offshoring Led to a Mask Shortage in a Pandemic

US companies have shifted production overseas, especially to China. We got cheaper products. But now we can't make vital health care supplies.

www.google.com

At a time of crises when doctors, nurses, emt, hospital staffs, etc. are putting their lives on the line, it is not the time to argue or worry about supply lines. That boat has already sailed. We should (and are) get them from any source that can manufacture in quantity quickly. The delays and backpedaling happening due to favoritism and the whims at the top are unconscionable. Seriously, he is trying to stop mass production of ventilators simply because he's pissed that GM didn't opt to make them at Lordstown, but instead chose a plant that has the clean room facilities to do it properly. That is morally wrong. To gaslight the country with false narratives is dangerous. Fortunately, Ventec and GM have decided to risk it on their own without Fed orders and start making lots of ventilators. More and more it is the aware and proactive states that are saving lives. They will buy the ventilators without the Fed nod. What is happening at the Federal level is a clusterf*ck. It is costing lives.

Off-shoring and single-source, just-in-time supply lines for critical healthcare needs is just part of the problem. So is eliminating the stockpiling of them, especially when the administration was warned multiple times that this is exactly what would happen without pandemic preparation.

PS: Russia just sent 60 tons of medical supplies. I'd much rather have them coming from our neighbor to the south, but glad they helped.

 

[Ashful]

This isn’t an an issue over getting respirators made, they’re getting made either way, it’s only a question over which company is getting the limited federal money allocated for it. The public opinion backlash against GM would be too severe for them to back out, now.

 

[begreen]

What backlash? They are doing this at cost. They're not doing this for PR. They're doing it because it must be done. When the administration decided to contract others that will take much longer, GM and Ventec just powered ahead, without govt. guarantees. To me, they are heroes. It's only the petty, self-serving, smears from some at the top that are tainting public opinion.

 

[Ashful]

Such as what? They said sorry chum, your insurance doesn't cover this?

Likely not covered in CNN tv:

Redirect Notice

Unfortunately as a fellow Canadian I have to disagree with some of this. I probably know just as many people with botched diagnosis and treatments as those with proper care. Particularly in regard to cancer treatment, my younger brother at 21 lost his best friend to cancer that started with a lump on his elbow which was diagnosed as tennis elbow, it was only realized he had cancer once he developed chest pain from the cancer spreading to his lungs, at that point there wasn't much they could do. I also had a neighbor in his mid 60's with a similar ordeal, had cancer was treated and then diagnosed cancer free, he died a month later of cancer. My aunt was also diagnosed with leukemia last year and underwent treatment, she finally got to the point she had to walk in and demand tests and transfusions to keep her alive because the system seemed to loose interest in her case. She fortunately made a successful recovery.

There are lots of Canadian visitors to Philadelphia’s world-class cancer centers, every year. I wonder why?

The cost is also not free for most cancer treatments, many of the specialty drugs required to treat it aren't covered by the government and in many cases cost $5k+ per month. My brother's best friend was this case, but they also had 4 other children to feed at that time, how does a family make choices like that? I also worked with a gentlemen whose wife fought cancer for 5 years before passing, same deal $4k per month for drugs, he spent his entire retirement savings on this.

This is something you never hear any discussion of, by those who assume everyone else is better off than the US.

I definitely don't like the fact that the US system is un-affordable for many people, but the level of care is outstanding.

I don’t know from what small fraction of our population people get the impression that healthcare in the US is unaffordable. It is accessible to every single citizen, it as simple as working hard and getting a job. I have never accepted any job that didn’t come with health insurance, and that was the case even back when I was a student. Those who lack insurance due to any factor other than their own poor choices is a very, very, very small fraction of our population. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but there are people who like to find the exceptions, and hold them up as if they’re the average, here

There are many Americans that can not afford insurance but they can afford a smart phone with internet access, new vehicles, and the latest fashions.

Exactly. I have known several of these people. They tend to have trouble showing up for work on a regular bases, and always claim to always have a successive string of uniquely cruel bosses.

WHO ranks Italy as no #2. Canada no #30
USA no# 37

I think that pretty much invalidates their ratings, right there. Anyone up for a trip to Italy, right now?

Perhaps med school shouldn't be so expensive. Poor people aren't stupid, they just can't afford to become doctors or nurses.

I grew up cash poor with a single mother. We all paid our own way thru college, but that didn’t stop my younger brother from going to med school, which he financed thru a combination of merit-based scholarships and federal student loans. I don’t see how anyone can claim cost as preventing them from becoming a doctor, when the federal loan programs and merit-based, need-based, and even obscure sports scholarships are available to those willing to apply themselves.

But in the end the overall rating is higher.

WHO is doing the rating. Get it?

That depends upon what insurance you have. Yes you will get good care here but you may be bankrupt afterwards. The ratings show the care you would get in much of the EU is as good if not better than here.

Italy, anyone?

 

[kennyp2339]

They're doing it because it must be done

This is why the big 3 wont every fail in the US, and why GM back in 08' got bailed out, in time of war they are the asset that the US needs, you have plants that can be re-tooled almost overnight to produce goods that are essential. I agree with you, this is not about politics or he said, she said, this is about making life saving equipment and you worry about the bills later.

 

[bholler]

Likely not covered in CNN:

Redirect Notice

There are lots of Canadian visitors to Philadelphia’s world-class cancer centers, every year. I wonder why?


This is something you never hear any discussion of, by those who assume everyone else is better off than the US.


I don’t know from what small fraction of our population people get the impression that healthcare in the US is unaffordable. It is accessible to every single citizen, it as simple as working hard and getting a job. I have never accepted any job that didn’t come with health insurance, and that was the case even back when I was a student. Those who lack insurance due to any factor other than their own poor choices is a very, very, very small fraction of our population. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but there are people who like to find the exceptions, and hold them up as if they’re the average, here


Exactly. I have known several of these people. They tend to have trouble showing up for work on a regular bases, and always claim to always have a successive string of uniquely cruel bosses.


I think that pretty much invalidates their ratings, right there. Anyone up for a trip to Italy, right now?

I grew up cash poor with a single mother. We all paid our own way thru college, but that didn’t stop my younger brother from going to med school, which he financed thru a combination of merit-based scholarships and federal student loans.

WHO is doing the rating. Get it?

Italy, anyone?

I am sorry but if you think that good healthcare is easily accessible to every American citizen you are completely out of touch with the reality of what is really going on. Much of the employer healthplans are high deductible plans that don't cover many things yet still cost a relatively large percentage of the employees pay.

My wife's last job which was a decent job for our area in the architecture dept of a grocery store had a top level healthplan for her employment level that cost about $120 a week and had a $2000 per person deductible with a family pay out cap of $195000. And prescription vision and dental were all additional. That type of plan is not uncommon at all. And even after paying every week lots of families would be struggling to pay the out of pocket medical expenses.

Yes it's great if you are in a position to be able to take medical benifits into account when looking for a job. But many people are happy just to get a job.

 

[Ashful]

I am sorry but if you think that good healthcare is easily accessible to every American citizen you are completely out of touch with the reality of what is really going on. Much of the employer healthplans are high deductible plans that don't cover many things yet still cost a relatively large percentage of the employees pay.

Yes, my plan is a high deductible plan, as well. I don’t see a problem with that, in fact it’s pushing health insurance back toward its original intent, and getting it away from managing each small action in our healthcare. It’s there for catastrophic circumstances, when I need it.

I would like to see elimination of the caps, though. Right now, we have to carry umbrella policies to cover that, and many people don’t.

Yes it's great if you are in a position to be able to take medical benifits into account when looking for a job. But many people are happy just to get a job.

I don’t know anyone with a good resume who has had any trouble finding a job, in the last four years.

 

[bholler]

Likely not covered in CNN tv:

Redirect Notice

There are lots of Canadian visitors to Philadelphia’s world-class cancer centers, every year. I wonder why?


This is something you never hear any discussion of, by those who assume everyone else is better off than the US.


I don’t know from what small fraction of our population people get the impression that healthcare in the US is unaffordable. It is accessible to every single citizen, it as simple as working hard and getting a job. I have never accepted any job that didn’t come with health insurance, and that was the case even back when I was a student. Those who lack insurance due to any factor other than their own poor choices is a very, very, very small fraction of our population. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but there are people who like to find the exceptions, and hold them up as if they’re the average, here


Exactly. I have known several of these people. They tend to have trouble showing up for work on a regular bases, and always claim to always have a successive string of uniquely cruel bosses.


I think that pretty much invalidates their ratings, right there. Anyone up for a trip to Italy, right now?

I grew up cash poor with a single mother. We all paid our own way thru college, but that didn’t stop my younger brother from going to med school, which he financed thru a combination of merit-based scholarships and federal student loans. I don’t see how anyone can claim cost as preventing them from becoming a doctor, when the federal loan programs and merit-based, need-based, and even obscure sports scholarships are available to those willing to apply themselves.

WHO is doing the rating. Get it?

Italy, anyone?

You keep bringing up Italy. And yes things are ugly there. But do you honestly think similar things couldn't happen here if we don't keep the spread under control?

 

[Ashful]

You keep bringing up Italy. And yes things are ugly there. But do you honestly think similar things couldn't happen here if we don't keep the spread under control?

I didn’t bring up Italy. Rather, I was responding to a former post who cited Italy as rated 35 points better than the US on healthcare. Only pointing out that those ratings many like to cite are flawed.

 

[bholler]

Yes, my plan is a high deductible plan, as well. I don’t see a problem with that, in fact it’s pushing health insurance back toward its original intent, and getting it away from managing each small action in our healthcare. It’s there for catastrophic circumstances, when I need it.

I would like to see elimination of the caps, though. Right now, we have to carry umbrella policies to cover that, and many people don’t.


I don’t know anyone with a good resume who has had any trouble finding a job, in the last four years.

Yes for you with your salary a high deductible plan is fine. For many people that high deductible would take a long time to pay down. And with a relatively low pay out cap a major illness or accident could easily bankrupt them.


Not everyone has a good resume. Yes there are jobs available. But many people are coming from jobs in manufacturing that had decent pay and benifits. When those plants close they are left with not much choice in many areas. Many end up in part time retail jobs just to have something coming in.

When we recently posted a single job opening we had almost 300 applications. Most with no experience other than working in a cabinet or modular home factory. Most were completely un qualified.

 

[Ashful]

Yes for you with your salary a high deductible plan is fine. For many people that high deductible would take a long time to pay down. And with a relatively low pay out cap a major illness or accident could easily bankrupt them.


Not everyone has a good resume. Yes there are jobs available. But many people are coming from jobs in manufacturing that had decent pay and benifits. When those plants close they are left with not much choice in many areas. Many end up in part time retail jobs just to have something coming in.

When we recently posted a single job opening we had almost 300 applications. Most with no experience other than working in a cabinet or modular home factory. Most were completely un qualified.

These are all good points, bholler. We aren’t seeing the same here, in fact I’m having trouble hiring for the skilled engineering and microelectronics positions we have open, there just aren’t many really good people looking to leave their current situation, right now. But I won’t argue with you if you’re seeing the opposite.

I will argue with you on the good resume point, since there’s only ever one person you can blame for a lack of that, there are many ways (even free, even serving your country) to build a respectable resume. It doesn’t have to mean an expensive college, for everyone.

Our argument there comes down to a difference in philosophy, and I don’t think either of us will ever change on that. I say “anyone can do it,” and you say, “but not everyone can do it.” Anyone versus everyone, a debate that was likely going before 1776, and I respect your opinion, even though my ethos points a different direction than yours.

 

[AlbergSteve]

And god forbid if you change jobs and now have a preexisting condition. That probably won't be covered with the new insurer. Best friend from the navy works in silicon valley as a hardware engineer and at the time was making $200k+ a year. He was on contract for a year or so when he had some serious lower GI issues that almost killed him but he wouldn't go the doctor beacause his old company was going to hire him back, and he didn't want to have a preexisting medical condition with the insurer. That's F%^ked up.

 

[Ashful]

And god forbid if you change jobs and now have a preexisting condition. That probably won't be covered with the new insurer.

what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!? That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.

Pre-existing condition - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

To add to my prior reply to bholler, I don’t disagree with him or begreen, in their position that we need a system that can care for all, in some basic level. My primary issue is their apparent assumption that our government is capable of being the mechanism for driving or maintaining it.

 

[bholler]

what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!? That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.

Pre-existing condition - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

To add to my prior reply to bholler, I don’t disagree with him or begreen, in their position that we need a system that can care for all, in some basic level. My primary issue is their apparent assumption that our government is capable of being the mechanism for driving or maintaining it.

Well yes and no. They cannot refuse you coverage because of a pre-existing condition. But they can only offer you certain plans and can price it out of your reach. I for example have malignant hyperthermia in my family. There is a test to determine if I actually have it but I have been told by multiple insurance reps and doctor that if I have the test and come back positive I will never be able to afford insurance. So instead I just assume I have it which adds significantcost to every procedure I have that requires any sort of anesthesia.

I completely agree our govt in the state it has been in for a couple decades now probably couldn't do it. But it honestly can't do much of anything. That needs fixed before anything else can improve

 

[begreen]

what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!? That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.

Yes, thanks to Obamacare. Unfortunately the poor people in the 14 states without ACA Medicaid expansion are SOL. I think it's 27 million uninsured at present.

 

[SpaceBus]

@Ashful colleges were far cheaper and one could work through school. Unless you want to stop at a community College folks can't really work through school anymore. There are a finite number of scholarships and grants. Quite frankly the only way to make it work is student loans.

 

[SpaceBus]

what on earth are you talking about, Steve?!? That hasn’t been an issue for more than a decade.

Pre-existing condition - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

To add to my prior reply to bholler, I don’t disagree with him or begreen, in their position that we need a system that can care for all, in some basic level. My primary issue is their apparent assumption that our government is capable of being the mechanism for driving or maintaining it.

Yeah, and heroin is also illegal, yet you find it in every city.

 

[begreen]

A little research shows that the non-ACA Medicaid states are also coming up with some grim statistics, especially in the poorer south. One out of 10 coronavirus deaths in the US is in the southern states now and a disproportionate amount is under 70. A Kaiser Foundation analysis notes that all adults under 60 who have heart disease, lung issues, cancer, diabetes or are overweight are at higher risk. According to an Atlantic article, "In Arkansas, Alabama, Kentucky, Tennessee, Louisiana, and Mississippi, relatively young people make up more than a quarter of the vulnerable population. Compare that with the coronavirus’s beachhead in Washington State, where younger adults make up only about 19 percent of the risk group." Many of these states have weaker public health programs and spend less than a third of what New York spends on them. Add the slow response of their governors and you have a recipe for a serious health crisis. Social distancing is going to be critical for these people.

 

[mcdougy]

As COVID-19 crisis deepens, out-of-state patients seek help at Philadelphia hospitals

Patients who are very ill with the coronavirus infection can quickly take a turn for the worse, making long journeys dangerous, medical experts say. Still, hospitals are required to care for all patients seeking treatment.

www.inquirer.com

.
@Ashful, I sure hope the WHO ratings are wrong. This doesn't look good, similar to what has happened elsewhere....Flags won't save anyone at this point

 

[Medic21]

As COVID-19 crisis deepens, out-of-state patients seek help at Philadelphia hospitals

Patients who are very ill with the coronavirus infection can quickly take a turn for the worse, making long journeys dangerous, medical experts say. Still, hospitals are required to care for all patients seeking treatment.

www.inquirer.com

.
@Ashful, I sure hope the WHO ratings are wrong. This doesn't look good, similar to what has happened elsewhere....Flags won't save anyone at this point

One thing people are not contemplating with the current “testing” and the reason so many are so sick and dying. No one is, still for the most part, being tested until they are deathly sick.

this is Indianapolis Indiana. 1 million people and only 3/4 of 1% of the population has been tested.

 

[SpaceBus]

One thing people are not contemplating with the current “testing” and the reason so many are so sick and dying. No one is, still for the most part, being tested until they are deathly sick.

this is Indianapolis Indiana. 1 million people and only 3/4 of 1% of the population has been tested.

Are you not seeing how many people are dying in NYC?