Harman 52i not working properly--low heat, runs dirty, excess ash

[alternativeheat]

Windward side below roof line and reduced as well?

Yes my first thought is windward side and it takes a lot of wind. At least the OAK is on the same side, that should help neutralize the wind effect.

OP: I suggest cleaning the vent for sure. If these are ashy pellets especially. The stove already has turns in it going to the venting manifold if you want to call it that ( internally at the stove to carriage connection) as I recall. There is a 90 in the system. It's three inch venting where from my knowledge 4" is preferred. Can't say not to use three but it will require more frequent cleaning.

OP: Have you cleaned inside the stove behind the medallion. Again, as I understand the 52i ,there is access behind there to passages not seen with the medallion in place. Look in your manual. And you may even find a you tube video on cleaning a 52i by now. I have not looked in a year. But the owners of them can walk you through that anyway.

 

[bags]

I see some possible issues. I am curious on that tapered termination and I know Dura Vent makes them at least for 3". I had my hands on one looking at it questioning the reduction. IMO it should have a flare out before shrinking.

Eric, can you pull the termination elbow off to see if it is restricting your flow? As long as it's not raining you will be fine with the 3" vent opened up and straight out temporarily. Use gloves as it may be hot. You installed so you know t's a twist lock. You do not need to silicone or seal that termination. It is outside and if there is a slight leak at the joint it's not a concern. Makes for easier access to clean vent also.

 

[bags]

Try an experiment. Remove the reducer, burn and see what happens. Try to do this on a calm day or get a full side ell to replace the reducer and point it up.

Sorry, you beat me. I was typing. I will go grab some popcorn and kick back and stay outta da way now!.

 

[woodmakesheat]

It does reduce smaller than 3". I guess they did it to speed up flow. It also seems to have a bird guard which I could imagine might contribute to clogging if one was making a lot of ash.

(broken image removed)

(broken link removed to http://www.duravent.com/NewsDetail.aspx?hArticle=161)

 

[bogieb]

The exhaust is on the left and OAK on the right I'd say. Looks a little bit different to me. Not sure what the OAK is made up of. I have seen those tapered horizontal termination elbows like that by Dura Vent. It seems they would restrict air flow but Dura Vent does sell and market them as termination elbows.

Still not a real clear photo. Can you get some close ups and try the phone horizontally.

I have a termination like that, except it is not bendable (or rotatable). The slight reduction is made for torpedoing the exhaust out on windward side installations. Works fine for my stove straight out at a horizontal.

Edit: Note that mine does not have the bird guard on it.

 

[bags]

That's what I had my hands on and did question it. I will now no longer worry because the ID of the tapered opening is 2 5/8". With that in mind the INNER ID of the 3" vent pipe is 2 3/4" so 1/8" is not really restricting air.

I saw that 2 5/8" and ran out to the garage since I have some 3' vent pipe and measured the true inner diameter ID of that. Basically the same so that termination elbow will not restrict flow on diameter. It will restrict as a 45* elbow though.

Looks are deceiving.........

 

[alternativeheat]

I have a termination like that, except it is not bendable (or rotatable). The slight reduction is made for torpedoing the exhaust out on windward side installations. Works fine for my stove straight out at a horizontal.

Edit: Note that mine does not have the bird guard on it.

Is there a screen behind that bird guard and if so how fine a mesh ?

Same question for the OAK ?

 

[woodmakesheat]

That's what I had my hands on and did question it. I will now no longer worry because the ID of the tapered opening is 2 5/8". With that in mind the INNER ID of the 3" vent pipe is 2 3/4" so 1/8" is not really restricting air.

I saw that 2 5/8" and ran out to the garage since I have some 3' vent pipe and measured the true inner diameter ID of that. Basically the same so that termination elbow will not restrict flow.

Looks are deceiving.........

Ahhh, good, I was wondering what the inner ID of regular 3" exhaust vent was - I am at work and had no access to a piece to measure.

 

[HP52NOVA]

Let's see what the complete installation looks like.

There was a case on here involving a 52i not long ago that suposedly needed a nose, heart, double lung and brain transplant.

That was my stove, and I think your description is spot on, it felt just like that. Eric, I am also a new 52i owner in Northern VA and I am sorry to say I know EXCTALY how you feel. So first, what is it supposed to be like: it is supposed to be a blow touch, it is supposed to be able to heat the room and the house to over 70 when its cold outside, and no - a tray of ash per bag is not normal. It looks like you are getting some help here from the guys, and I would differ to them on the technical guidance. I can share my experience, if it will help - here is my post with all the info:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/harman-accentra-52i-–-problems-in-paradise.137328/

 

[EricHahn]

Close up of outside vent.

 

[bags]

3" vent pipe has an OD of 3 5/8' to 3 3/4' on the outer pipe. Keep in mind there's another inner pipe with a 1/2 clearance between the two and the inner diameter of the pipe is 2 5/8" to 2 3/4' so that tapered outlet is still the same size as the ID.

 

[alternativeheat]

That was my stove, and I think your description is spot on, it felt just like that. Eric, I am also a new 52i owner in Northern VA and I am sorry to say I know EXCTALY how you feel. So first, what is it supposed to be like: it is supposed to be a blow touch, it is supposed to be able to heat the room and the house to over 70 when its cold outside, and no - a tray of ash per bag is not normal. It looks like you are getting some help here from the guys, and I would differ to them on the technical guidance. I can share my experience, if it will help - here is my post with all the info:https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/harman-accentra-52i-–-problems-in-paradise.137328/

I'm glad you popped in because I was about to start searching for your thread !! Seems to me there was model year info involved in your case and recalls from Harman or tech bulletins from Harman.

 

[alternativeheat]

Close up of outside vent.

What is over the front of that air intake ?? If that is fine mesh or some cloth thingy get it off of there.

 

[bogieb]

I see a wide-mesh screen on the OAK - hmm, after a closer look, it does look more like a fine mesh. Can't tell if there is one on the termination vent.

There isn't any screen on my version - a vent brush can go straight thru the pipe

 

[woodmakesheat]

As I wondered in the other thread on this - could it be a malfunctioning ESP/control circuit that's keeping the fire too cool and ashy? Or wet pellets. Or as above - an airflow issue.

 

[Harman Lover 007]

So the air intake and vent pipe exit the rear of the stove vertically for 15" then 90 degree elbow and it runs horizontally for 24".

EVL calc as described: Rear of stove... must have a 90 or a cleanout Tee (5 EVL); vertical 15" (.7 EVL); 90 deg elbow (5 EVL); 24" horizontal (2 EVL) Total 12.7 EVL. I see those terminations a lot. I don't think it's a restriction. I don't think the EVL is the problem. Too many cooks in this broth...I'll watch from the sidelines with Smokey.

 

[alternativeheat]

EVL calc as described: Rear of stove... must have a 90 or a cleanout Tee (5 EVL); vertical 15" (.7 EVL); 90 deg elbow (5 EVL); 24" horizontal (2 EVL) Total 12.7 EVL. I see those terminations a lot. I don't think it's a restriction. I don't think the EVL is the problem. Too many cooks in this broth...I'll watch from the sidelines with Smokey.

I've said what I need to say for now myself. I'm going watch for a bit till some of these things get addressed and see what shakes out of that.

 

[HP52NOVA]

I'm glad you popped in because I was about to start searching for your thread !! Seems to me there was model year info involved in your case and recalls from Harman or tech bulletins from Harman.

Yes, there is a recall on the burn pot and combustion fan cover. Call Harman direct and ask for a dealer that can provide warranty service. if your burn pot has holes on the side wings, you are affected. they checked my serial and I was not supposed to be affected but I was. also, the igniter area has a bit of redesign as well (held by a clamp). if you did your own install, read all the materials and verify it was done right. A bad self install could void your warranty. A bad ESP could also be "helping" here, as it was with me. There are just so many factors, I would start by eliminating the basics, verify the stove is 100% as its the only part under warranty. Then review the venting and install.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

EVL should be below 15 with a 3" vent. Am I understanding you correctly? Would you recommend it be switched out with 4"?

Not over 15 with 3" vent.

I want to know what the separation is between the OAK and exhaust, I'm not a fan of possible self pollution of my input combustion air.

I have an issue with that OAK screen it is too fine you do not need to restrict your air flow at the get go

No one is counting that termination which does produce a resistance to the air flow because it both has a bend and reduction to it so if it would be about one foot in horizontal length would add at least a EVL of 1 to the calculations coupled that isthe fact it is also a down pitch (a big no-no in the venting book) instead of going upward as a good horizontal run would I rate that as another 2 to the EVL you are over limit for 3".in my book.

Please remove that OAK screen and I pray that it isn't being subjected to as much in the bendy bunny line of installation, if it were me that bird guard on the termination cap would go during the burn season.

Now you need to get the stoves exhaust side completely cleaned again.

I don't want to see pictures of that poor esp. The stove's control system has been diced, sliced, and totally confused.

Once you have done that at the very least.

I'd give it another spin before I went through the thrash of going to 4 which it likely really needs, the blower on those Harmans if things were set via the DDM are pretty solid in the oomph department and they have a double paddle version to boot for hi altitude work.

Rule one in venting (both exhaust and air intake) shorter is better.
Rule two as bend less as possible.
Rule three at the EVL mark of 15 use 4" for the entire exhaust run
Rule four horizontal isn't truely , upbuble at least 1/4" per foot of run and never downward.

 

[F4jock]

Not over 15 with 3" vent.

I want to know what the separation is between the OAK and exhaust, I'm not a fan of possible self pollution of my input combustion air.

I have an issue with that OAK screen it is too fine you do not need to restrict your air flow at the get go

No one is counting that termination which does produce a resistance to the air flow because it both has a bend and reduction to it so if it would be about one foot in horizontal length would add at least a EVL of 1 to the calculations coupled that the fact it is also a down pitch (a big no-no in the venting book) instead of going upward as a good horizontal run would I rate that as another 2 to the EVL you are over limit for 3".in my book.

Please remove that OAK screen and I pray that it isn't being subjected to as much in the bendy bunny line of installation, if it were me that bird guard on the termination cap would go during the burn season.

Now you need to get the stoves exhaust side completely cleaned again.

I don't want to see pictures of that poor esp. The stove's control system has been diced, sliced, and totally confused.

Once you have done that at the very least.

I'd give it another spin before I went through the thrash of going to 4 which it likely really needs, the blower on those Harmans if things were set via the DDM are pretty solid in the oomph department and they have a double paddle version to boot for hi altitude work.

Rule one in venting (both exhaust and air intake) shorter is better.
Rule two as bend less as possible.
Rule three at the EVL mark of 15 use 4" for the entire exhaust run
Rule four horizontal isn't truely , upbuble at least 1/4" per foot of run and never downward.

Thanks Smokey. As well as all that he's windward, facing down and low.

 

[chken]

I'd like to see some inside pics, like how the vent is connected inside, and the inside of the firebox, with the ash, and the flame.

It's hard to imagine the pellets could be so bad that they'd ash up so fast. And, the vent EVL should be acceptable. The pile of ash has to be combustion related.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

There is at least one other thing that I wouldn't be able to get away with on my stove if it was installed like that.

It is the fact there will never be a natural draft in his system do to the OAK being above the exhaust termination but everyone assures me that the back-flow damper kind of makes a mockery of such things on certain stove.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'd like to see some inside pics, like how the vent is connected inside, and the inside of the firebox, with the ash, and the flame.

It's hard to imagine the pellets could be so bad that they'd ash up so fast. And, the vent EVL should be acceptable. The pile of ash has to be combustion related.

No kidding there is nothing any more combustion related than the air flow through the system, his is constrained at both ends.

 

[keep-in warm]

Have you only burned a single pellet brand- HearthWoods? Please take a step back and try a confirmed quality, low ash pellet FIRST Several brands would be prudent to really see how your stove is operating.

to paraphrase Bags comments earlier, crappy pellets produce a crappy burn. I cant speak for this brand, and they may be PFI rated but their own lab testing shows a .9 ash level. Perform a full clean (ESP too) and try a different pellet before digging too deep into the install.

I can not find any reviews never mind a recommendation burning this brand. What other pellets are available to you? I will now go back to the sideline......

 

[boosted3g]

Have you checked the outside air flapper to make sure it moves freely or something is not clogging the intake? I have a higher evl on my Harman with 3" pipe so I don't think that is the problem but I would make sure it was getting air coming in.