Geothermal is out! Need advice on the boiler route

[denvershepherd]

Jim Heil and Bruce Randall are the principals at that business and what you are contemplating is their stock and trade. They don't shortcut anything and would get you set up with a system that is right for you and right for your house.
They have not done any work for me (I'm in the same biz myself) but I'm sure they can provide references in the Colorado area. I know both of them through business relationship.

Great thanks. I emailed Jim about an hour ago. I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[kopeck]

The Froling looks like a beautiful unit Paver. Can I ask what model you purchased and what the age of your home is? Anything you don't like about it? I don't know if it's appropriate to ask what you paid for the Froling, but what did you pay for your unit? How does that cleaning unit they have built in work for you?

Neil

I can't answer for the OP but I also have the Solo Innova and like it a lot. To me it sits right in the middle, it's not as fancy as the Froling, you have to set the primary/secondary air by hand but my experience has been once you get it set for your wood you are all set and don't have to mess with it. The Solo Innova is however a bit more advanced then a boiler like the EKO or similar products. It's firebox design is like that of the Froling so you can open the door and not have to worry about smoke rolling out. There's also no bypass to mess with, if there's a fire going and the fan is running just open the door and you are good to go, even if the fan cycles off during a burn just push the door button and it will start the fan for a couple of minutes so you can do what you need to do. Nothing against the EKOs or Econoburns of the world, there seems to be a lot of happy folks with them I went with the Tarm because it gave me a simple design but with some really nice features that others didn't offer.

Garns are sort of on their own IMHO. If you have the space you can't argue with the simplicity of the design.

I also looked at a Vigas, they looked like nice units too. In the end Tarm had the name so that's what I went with. That and the local distributor and the importer were very good to deal with.

Oh and to answer a question a couple of pages back...Tarm Biomass is the company that imports Tarm HS & Froling boilers. They're separate companies, Tarm Biomass's name does make it a little confusing though.

What's the availability of wood pellets in your area? If your not so sure about dealing with wood, pellets are a good alternative. Check out Tarm Biomass's Blog ((broken link removed)) they have some nice examples of some of their Frolings both in home and commercial use. Those units are just a step below oil/gas as far as easy of use.

K

 

[surviverguy]

Can you do any insulation upgrades to reduce your heat losses? Just something else to consider in the equation...(use less wood and have more stable temperatures)
In addition to the boiler, a large woodstove on the main floor with those high ceilings would help a lot.
I wouldn't buy propane anything...you have electric hot water and baseboards which could be used when you go out of town (on low).
There are 2,000 btu's per ton (heatpump) ...so your geothermal setup would have been 6 1/2 tons. Geothermal design usualy has em runnin 24/7 at design temp (lowest temps in winter).
I second the idea to read John Siegenthaler's book "Hydronic heating for residential and light commercial buildings"...and also check out his article on the web "from wood to water" part 1 and part 2.
I'd also recommend getting lots of wood (css) now while the gettin' is good..18" logs would fit in any large woodburner and are you're gonna have at least one...
One advantage to radiant floors is that they make use of the lowest temperature water which makes them the most efficient. Radiant floors provide the greatest confort (assuming proper design). The downside to radiant floors is their cost.

 

[denvershepherd]

I can't answer for the OP but I also have the Solo Innova and like it a lot. To me it sits right in the middle, it's not as fancy as the Froling, you have to set the primary/secondary air by hand but my experience has been once you get it set for your wood you are all set and don't have to mess with it. The Solo Innova is however a bit more advanced then a boiler like the EKO or similar products. It's firebox design is like that of the Froling so you can open the door and not have to worry about smoke rolling out. There's also no bypass to mess with, if there's a fire going and the fan is running just open the door and you are good to go, even if the fan cycles off during a burn just push the door button and it will start the fan for a couple of minutes so you can do what you need to do. Nothing against the EKOs or Econoburns of the world, there seems to be a lot of happy folks with them I went with the Tarm because it gave me a simple design but with some really nice features that others didn't offer.

Garns are sort of on their own IMHO. If you have the space you can't argue with the simplicity of the design.

I also looked at a Vigas, they looked like nice units too. In the end Tarm had the name so that's what I went with. That and the local distributor and the importer were very good to deal with.

Oh and to answer a question a couple of pages back...Tarm Biomass is the company that imports Tarm HS & Froling boilers. They're separate companies, Tarm Biomass's name does make it a little confusing though.

What's the availability of wood pellets in your area? If your not so sure about dealing with wood, pellets are a good alternative. Check out Tarm Biomass's Blog ((broken link removed)) they have some nice examples of some of their Frolings both in home and commercial use. Those units are just a step below oil/gas as far as easy of use.

K

Thanks for clearing that up about Tarm vs Tarm Biomass. I was a little confused about that. I talked to a company that Heaterman had suggested today and I really liked them. They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level. I think it may be Tarm or Garn at this point. But that may change tomorrow. I'm having the company come out to do a complete heat loss calc on my home to see exactly what I need.

Neil

 

[Paver56]

Denvershepherd,
My house is 3 years old. We used an 1" to 1.5" of spray foam with R13 on top of that. I went with the Froling 40/50. I have it on the 50 setting.
The boiler came with a lot of the valves needed for installation, including the termover blending valve. I believe we paid a little over 11k for it.
So far the only thing I do not like about it, and this is minor, is that all of the temperature displays are in celcius. I just downloaded an ap for my phone to convert to F.
I have been cleaning it once a week. It comes with a small ash pan and tools which make the cleaning very easy. It usually only takes between 5 to 10 minutes to clean it. I usually get all of the weeks ashes in the pan that comes with it.
I should mention that one of the nicest features on the Froling is the middle door which is used to light the fire.
Another thing that the unit came with was a control box which I believe Tarm makes. It can be set to wood only, backup only, or backup on. It is an easy way to choose which way you want to heat your house. Right now, I am home everyday and have it set on wood only. If we go away I can set it so my HC propane boiler kicks on when my tank temp gets low. If I choose to just heat my DHW with propane in the summer, I can set it to backup only.
Hope this info helps. Good luck on your decision.

 

[Gasifier]

Thanks for clearing that up about Tarm vs Tarm Biomass. I was a little confused about that. I talked to a company that Heaterman had suggested today and I really liked them. They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level. I think it may be Tarm or Garn at this point. But that may change tomorrow. I'm having the company come out to do a complete heat loss calc on my home to see exactly what I need.

Neil,

What do you mean when you say, "They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level? You mean the first level of your garage?

 

[denvershepherd]

Thanks for clearing that up about Tarm vs Tarm Biomass. I was a little confused about that. I talked to a company that Heaterman had suggested today and I really liked them. They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level. I think it may be Tarm or Garn at this point. But that may change tomorrow. I'm having the company come out to do a complete heat loss calc on my home to see exactly what I need.

Neil,

What do you mean when you say, "They deal specifically with Garn so if I go with them I'm going to have to clear some space in the wreck room on the first level? You mean the first level of your garage?

Hi,

I have a utility room down on the first level which is attached to a large wreck room. I meant that I would have to expand the utility room to hold the garn/wood etc.... The garn can go right in your house correct?

Neil

 

[kopeck]

Hi,

I have a utility room down on the first level which is attached to a large wreck room. I meant that I would have to expand the utility room to hold the garn/wood etc.... The garn can go right in your house correct?

Neil

As long as you can get it in there and you have enough head room then yeah, well that and if your floor can support it (we're talking a cement pad right?).

K

 

[denvershepherd]

As long as you can get it in there and you have enough head room then yeah, well that and if your floor can support it (we're talking a cement pad right?).

K

Yes. the whole wreck room is on a concrete slab. Do I need to put steel underneath of it if I decide to get the Garn?

Neil

 

[gtjp]

Hello,

Just got my second estimate back for a geothermal instal and it was over a 100K as well.

WOW!
why insane quotes
did I see for 3000 sq ft home?

Did any suggest a 3-ton system with a 5-ton loop for covering ALL cooling and a couple air zones and ALL 100% INSTANT HotWater Heating by temp programming? or a 3,1.2ton 3-staging HW Prioritym that can ALSO heat In-Floor and be backed up by the smallest wood burner...?
(pictorials: geopros.org)

Is the closed loop drilling 100/ft there?

In very hard to use parts of Ohio:
drilling and pumps and gt system for

www.Hydro-Temp.com Priority HW all bells, 3 staging, 75% less costly than oil, 60% less than straight electric, and 40-45% less than even www.IBCboiler,com (20-115 variable 20-115k btuh)...

@ 4-ton for 3000 sq ft forced air average insulated: HIGHEST retrofitting @ ~ 24,000 less 30% break tax credit and 600 uty rebate... ~ nets out after saving 1600 (-1900 usually, all HW and HVAC ~ 8000 kwh/ annually...

first year at under ~ $ 14,000 with substantially equal operation in sealed ducting and proper return air system, ~ 7 years ROI at worst...

100,ooo was for 4 units,12000 sqft/// half new ducting and radiant floor 3100 sqft.
2009:
on open well of 135 gpm (point.2 PPM iron...)
using ~ 24- 28 gpm at peak -10 below zero, 16 gpm peak summer--- watering the lawn, keeping a pool of fresh water flow at 88 degrees for fun in the summer usage!

radiant costs contractors here now ~ $11/sqft if 1000 sqft hooked to some source with pumps and a controller, or over 1000 sqft for only a little less to ~ 4000 sqft, comes down a bit.
It is recommended only in floors above basement, as forced-air ceiling registers can be directed straight down over slab flooring/ basements/ well insulated, to "create" a floor-radiant warm feet effect, substantially acceptable to ALL WHO LET ME adjust the registers.

-since 1986, found registers needed "bending" in ceilings, and cooling takes care of itself...

 

[gtjp]

Can you do any insulation upgrades to reduce your heat losses? Just something else to consider in the equation...(use less wood and have more stable temperatures)
In addition to the boiler, a large woodstove on the main floor with those high ceilings would help a lot.
I wouldn't buy propane anything...you have electric hot water and baseboards which could be used when you go out of town (on low).
There are 2,000 btu's per ton (heatpump) .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hi from a GT-Nut 1980--- to date:

PLEASE FIND 12000 BTUHS PER TON IF YOU HAVE A 44-DEGREE ENTERING FLUID IN A GROUND LOOP OVER 3GPM PER TON ACTUAL COMPRESSOR TONS INSIDE , SAY A WATER-WATER RADIANT-IN-FLOOR HEAT EXCHANGER, R410a.

Then
see calculator sheet notes www.geopros.org (click that rough -built logo)

find a 3000 sq ft are in -20-deg winters need only size for ! 80% of a TRUE-get through a night or 3, load peak for heating...
setting GT Heat Pumps to run 24/7 at 74-deg, without supplemental heating at 80% sized, results in easily staying above 68 through a few coldest nights using the very high mass whole-house as a "flywheel", I believe you find others successfully doing.


4400 sq ft homes , UNINSULATED SLAB BASEMENT REC ROOM over thick carpet and primo pad ONLY... with 6" stud wet-cellulose spray, r- 50 vaulted and attic cellulose...
2 story,
N-Ohio 6600 deg day area (-12-17 below frequently 1-3 nights)
uses only 64.000 btuh GT on a 6-ton loop, 34-deg entering; and does not turn on a strip heater until a couple weeks in sub- 7 to 8 below weather, ( ~ 600 sq ft glass). ( ~ 12000 kwh/year - HVAC and Hot Water On-Demand "instant" by total compressor Priority)

 

[woodsmaster]

Yes. the whole wreck room is on a concrete slab. Do I need to put steel underneath of it if I decide to get the Garn?

Neil

No

 

[maple1]

gtjp: I cannot understand you.

 

[denvershepherd]

I would recomend panel rads or low temp baseboard since you already have baseboard. Lots of good gassers our there. I'd deffinitly recomend storage. It makes the boiler a lot easier to use and clean. I looked into geo before I
bought My boiler. They wanted 30,000 to do just my house. I spenthalf that and heat the house and shop. I
like my biomass a lot. The wood gun seems to be a great boiler to. Definitly take a look at the garn if you have room for it. They tend to be a little more money but are very easy to use. the frolling is a top of the line gasse made by tarm. The Effecta is another cutting edge boiler That like the frolling and Garn tend to cost a little more than most
of the other boilers. Good luck. You have your research cut out for you.

Hi Woodmaster,

I'm trying to price out storage with my system as I'm leaning back toward the Froling FHG-L due to the HUGE size of the Garn. Is there a good place to buy storage and what specifically should I look for in the tank if I'm wanting to pair it up with the Froling?

Thanks,

Neil

 

[Paver56]

Denvershepherd,
One thing I would recommend is if you go with the Froling, put in plenty of storage. Mine has no problem with the 1500 gal of storage. I would not want less. More storage=more time between fires!

 

[woodsmaster]

I'm notsure were to get tanks in your area. Try calling salvage yards. Most propane dealers won't sell you tanks but if you call them they may be able to tell you who will.One thing to decide is if you will need a coil in the tank for dhw
or solar. If so that can be added to most any tank by a professional welder. An indirect tank is also a good option for dhw and no need for the coil.
Stainless milk tanks are also an option if you have old dairys around. They are insulated -usually cost more. There is a salvage yard around here with all kinds of tanks but I don't Know what shipping would cost.

 

[skfire]

I'm trying to price out storage with my system as I'm leaning back toward the Froling FHG-L due to the HUGE size of the Garn. Is there a good place to buy storage and what specifically should I look for in the tank if I'm wanting to pair it up with the Froling?

Thanks,

Neil

+1 on the Froling.
A good balance between heat-load, type of emitter temperature requirement(usable range of BTUs) and storage is advisable.
Of course the Froling can easily handle 1500gallons, but the amount of "food" is also a concern.
@ 1500 gallons you may need 2 loads back to back to satisfy tanks and concurrent houseload, depending on the calls.
Lots of factors involved.
From my limited experience, 800 gallons get me through with 1-2 fires a day(not full firebox load)depending on outside temps.

Of course space considerations are also in the mix.

+1 Woodmaster on the tanks.
Also check used air tanks(verticals if you have the headroom). New air tanks run cheaper than new water or new propane and they are still ASME.

Good luck.

Scott

 

[kopeck]

Don't forget unpressurized storage like American Solartechnics. Tom is a member on here and if you don't like lifting heavy things and then finding and then dealing with welding the thing up so you can use it.

These tanks are nice since they give you lots of options later one. Adding a DHW coil or even a solar exchanger is pretty straight forward. Tom's a good guy to work with, I've had a condensation issue with my tank and he's been over to try and get it resolved.

K

 

[denvershepherd]

Denvershepherd,
One thing I would recommend is if you go with the Froling, put in plenty of storage. Mine has no problem with the 1500 gal of storage. I would not want less. More storage=more time between fires!

Can you tell me what type of storage you have Paver? Brand, pressure vs non pressure, where you got it etc...

Thanks,

Neil

 

[denvershepherd]

+1 on the Froling.
A good balance between heat-load, type of emitter temperature requirement(usable range of BTUs) and storage is advisable.
Of course the Froling can easily handle 1500gallons, but the amount of "food" is also a concern.
@ 1500 gallons you may need 2 loads back to back to satisfy tanks and concurrent houseload, depending on the calls.
Lots of factors involved.
From my limited experience, 800 gallons get me through with 1-2 fires a day(not full firebox load)depending on outside temps.

Of course space considerations are also in the mix.

+1 Woodmaster on the tanks.
Also check used air tanks(verticals if you have the headroom). New air tanks run cheaper than new water or new propane and they are still ASME.

Good luck.

Scott

I see you have a Buderus LP back up . Does it switch automatically over to this when the boiler is not loaded and the hot water in the storage runs out? Do you need a device that connects the two?

Thanks,

Neil

 

[bro-tek]

+1 on the Froling.
A good balance between heat-load, type of emitter temperature requirement(usable range of BTUs) and storage is advisable.
Of course the Froling can easily handle 1500gallons, but the amount of "food" is also a concern.
@ 1500 gallons you may need 2 loads back to back to satisfy tanks and concurrent houseload, depending on the calls.
Lots of factors involved.
From my limited experience, 800 gallons get me through with 1-2 fires a day(not full firebox load)depending on outside temps.

Of course space considerations are also in the mix.

+1 Woodmaster on the tanks.
Also check used air tanks(verticals if you have the headroom). New air tanks run cheaper than new water or new propane and they are still ASME.

Good luck.

Scott

+1 on the Froling, 2x500 gal propane tank standing up is a good setup, even better would be 3x500.

 

[denvershepherd]

+1 on the Froling, 2x500 gal propane tank standing up is a good setup, even better would be 3x500.

Cool Bro-Tek. What type of storage do you have?

p.s. I'm originally from NB but haven't live there for almost 15 years.

 

[willworkforwood]

You're making good progress dialing in a quality boiler with storage, but have you done anything on the firewood side of this yet?

 

[skfire]

I see you have a Buderus LP back up . Does it switch automatically over to this when the boiler is not loaded and the hot water in the storage runs out? Do you need a device that connects the two?

Thanks,

Neil

Yes, Tarm Biomass provides a "switch box" and aquastats, choice of setting to "wood only", "back up" or auto.
The rest is the way you pipe and wire your system & controller.

There are other way than controlling it, but why rediscover the wheel, their set up is very well designed.

Scott

 

[denvershepherd]

You're making good progress dialing in a quality boiler with storage, but have you done anything on the firewood side of this yet?

My neighbour who has tons of seasoned wood just dropped 3 cord off to get me started. He also said he's got 5 or 6 fallen trees that I'm welcome to. Of course I'll have to do the work on those.