fireplace deemed unsafe to use -options?

[begreen]

All inserts need to be put in a code compliant wood burning fireplace. Which means you need a compliant hearth. If you need more depth added that can be ember protection. And yes if it is no longer moving it absolutly could just be filled. But i gaurantee once an insert is put in there no one will notice if it opens up again. Which could be dangerous. I would get other opinions to try to find out if it is an ongoing structural issue or just old movement.

I think now that the OP is aware of the issue he can keep an eye on it. If really concerned a continuous non-combustible surface could extend from the hearth front to under the insert. That is not dissimilar to a free-standing stove on an ember protection hearth pad.

 

[robj80]

pick of the whole thing. The glass doors are open here and hard to see that. Please excuse the romper room mess and baby bumpers LOL.

 

[bholler]

I think now that the OP is aware of the issue he can keep an eye on it. If really concerned a continuous non-combustible surface could extend from the hearth front to under the insert. That is not dissimilar to a free-standing stove on an ember protection hearth pad.

No it is not dissimilar but freestanding stoves are tested to be used on ember protection only. Inserts are tested to be used on a firebox floor and compliant hearth extension. Honestly it may be fine but we dont have anywhere near enough info to make that judgment.

 

[bholler]

pick of the whole thing. The glass doors are open here and hard to see that. Please excuse the romper room mess and baby bumpers LOL.

The price seems a bit high for fixing that. I expected to see a much larger face.

 

[bholler]

pick of the whole thing. The glass doors are open here and hard to see that. Please excuse the romper room mess and baby bumpers LOL.

Can you try standing a couple feet infront of the fireplace and jumping up and down while someone watches the gaps? If it is what i think is going on it should move a little. I beleive the sweep you had there thinks the same as i do the floor is supporting the weight of the extension and face and it is sagging.

 

[robj80]

Just tried jumping. We couldn't see any movement. First had might light weight daughter jump when I looked. Then I jumped when she looked but I'm not overly confident she would even notice any movement unless all the stone fell off the wall. The large stone in front is 66" across. The guy that came to clean def thinks it is not supported correctly.

 

[elmoleaf]

By code, combustible material should not remain against underside of hearth and hearth extension after construction. While it's not likely to catch fire, the osb under the hearth extension should be removed anyway so you can inspect the concrete there for any signs of trouble.
Code is here :
https://codes.iccsafe.org/public/document/IRC2018/chapter-10-chimneys-and-fireplaces
You can read up on the minimum standards for fireplace construction.
It's possible that the raised hearth is not entirely bearing on concrete hearth extension...that single 2x wood member in front of the extension wouldn't be capable of supporting a lot of weight without deflecting. Or, perhaps the extension was not formed at the same time as the hearth portion and simply doweled in with rebar, in which case it would be likely to sag.
BTW, I don't see anything in the pics to show that the hearth/hearth extension is failing. The pics seem to show the vertical stone veneer surround has some separation from the brick...this is entirely possible if the veneer was installed without any anchors. Or is one of those pics showing the firebox floor junction with the hearth extension?

 

[Poindexter]

My ass/u/me/shun is pic 4 in post seven is underneath the fireplace...

Looks like cinderblock chimney with adjacent poured or precast foundation walls? Any cracking there to indicate if the chimney is settling faster than the foundation?

I think putting a 6 inch thick poured concrete pad on your living room floor is a spectacularly bad idea. My free opinion is worth every penny you pay for it. The floor framing shown won't take it, and I don't see any framing reinforcement on your written estimate. Rebar, woo-hoo, hold my beer... It might be you have some framing sprinkles not shown in the one picture, 3x6x0.5 feet pour, 9 cf concrete, 1350 pounds, 75psf on a floor likely built for 40-50psf.

Get another sweep out there. Have him/her look at the chimney/foundation joint in your basement /crawlspace as part of the site visit. Ask about feasibility of repairing what you have to add an insert, or tearing off all the facade in the living space and using the existing chimney (likely with insulated liner) to run a freestander.

My opinion. Not a doctor.

 

[bholler]

My ass/u/me/shun is pic 4 in post seven is underneath the fireplace...

Looks like cinderblock chimney with adjacent poured or precast foundation walls? Any cracking there to indicate if the chimney is settling faster than the foundation?

I think putting a 6 inch thick poured concrete pad on your living room floor is a spectacularly bad idea. My free opinion is worth every penny you pay for it. The floor framing shown won't take it, and I don't see any framing reinforcement on your written estimate. Rebar, woo-hoo, hold my beer... It might be you have some framing sprinkles not shown in the one picture, 3x6x0.5 feet pour, 9 cf concrete, 1350 pounds, 75psf on a floor likely built for 40-50psf.

Get another sweep out there. Have him/her look at the chimney/foundation joint in your basement /crawlspace as part of the site visit. Ask about feasibility of repairing what you have to add an insert, or tearing off all the facade in the living space and using the existing chimney (likely with insulated liner) to run a freestander.

My opinion. Not a doctor.

The framing does not and cannot support the hearth extension. We rebuild a few every year that hearth extension needs to be tied into the hearth slab well enough that it is self supporting. That many times can be accomplished by drilling holes and inserting rebar into that slab at opposing angles. Other times the hearth floors needs to be pulled up and part of the hearth slab removed to tie it in properly. Their proposal in no way involves putting the hearth extension on the floor.

 

[Poindexter]

So drill rebar into the existing blockwork, leave the joists undisturbed, take up the existing hearth pad and subfloor, form it up and pour essentially a porch floor hanging off the front of the chimney blockwork? And then put a finished surface on the pour?

Fo shizzle? For $7500? So the homeowner can save "a few bucks" putting in an insert instead of a freestander?

I got to have my municipal water supply checked for hallucinogens, because i think I might be tripping. That never would have occurred to me as a reasonable thing to do.

Thanks for showing me the error of my thinking.

At OP, user bholler is an actual chimney sweep, a professional. I am just a dude from Alaska who did good in shop class but doesn't use drugs. I doubt bholler uses drugs either, I am just gobsmacked at the idea of making this kind of effort to fix a fireplace when you want to burn some wood to lower your heating bill. There has to be a better way.

 

[Poindexter]

@bholler - no offense intended you personally. Really. You are well respected pro around here and I am not the only schmo with a ranger and wild thing to notice.

I am in the wrong line of work is all. Shrugs and mumbles. 7500 to fix a fireplace that wasn't built correctly in the first place. Just wow.

I don't know what either of my grandfathers would do in this situation, but opening their own checkbooks to cover someone else's poor workmanship would not have crossed their minds.

Peace out, all y'all, i just can't deal with this.

 

[robj80]

Not sure what happened in this thread. The game plan is second opinion and not go with first bid. If I can get it done right for less money by going free standing then that is the plan. I will see what the next chimney guy says and the one after that as well if need be. Thanks for all the replies and keep them coming. I will keep reporting my findings. I just won't be typing in front of a cozy fire for a bit.

 

[bholler]

So drill rebar into the existing blockwork, leave the joists undisturbed, take up the existing hearth pad and subfloor, form it up and pour essentially a porch floor hanging off the front of the chimney blockwork? And then put a finished surface on the pour?

Fo shizzle? For $7500? So the homeowner can save "a few bucks" putting in an insert instead of a freestander?

I got to have my municipal water supply checked for hallucinogens, because i think I might be tripping. That never would have occurred to me as a reasonable thing to do.

Thanks for showing me the error of my thinking.

At OP, user bholler is an actual chimney sweep, a professional. I am just a dude from Alaska who did good in shop class but doesn't use drugs. I doubt bholler uses drugs either, I am just gobsmacked at the idea of making this kind of effort to fix a fireplace when you want to burn some wood to lower your heating bill. There has to be a better way.

The problem is it seems as though they built the face of the fireplace ontop of the poorly supported hearth extension. That means the face needs pulled down. Hearth extension and its slab need to be removed. You need to see if there is enough slab under the hearth to anchor to if not remove the floor and slab under it then form reinforce and pour the slab. Then relay the floor and all the stone. All of this while controlling any dust and debris to protect the house. I think 7500 is a little high but not much.

 

[bholler]

@bholler - no offense intended you personally. Really. You are well respected pro around here and I am not the only schmo with a ranger and wild thing to notice.

I am in the wrong line of work is all. Shrugs and mumbles. 7500 to fix a fireplace that wasn't built correctly in the first place. Just wow.

I don't know what either of my grandfathers would do in this situation, but opening their own checkbooks to cover someone else's poor workmanship would not have crossed their minds.

Peace out, all y'all, i just can't deal with this.

And i took no offence at all no worries

 

[Sodbuster]

$7500 is ridiculous for that scope of work, we paid $2500 for stone to be applied new hearth, and stove installed, not including the cost of the stove PE Summit and 28' of Excel Class A SS chimney.

 

[bholler]

$7500 is ridiculous for that scope of work, we paid $2500 for stone to be applied new hearth, and stove installed, not including the cost of the stove PE Summit and 28' of Excel Class A SS chimney.

This job is much more involved than laying stone on a hearth and installing a class a chimney. I agree the price is higher than what i would charge if it is actually what i think it is but not by much. It is allot of work.

 

[Sodbuster]

Couldn't he brace the bottom with 2x8's on hangers, strip and replace the sagging sticky stone, and patch the cracks with furnace cement, then install a wood stove on a proper hearth extension?

 

[maple1]

Are jack posts underneath sometimes a solution to these support related issues?

 

[bholler]

Are jack posts underneath sometimes a solution to these support related issues?

Possibly

 

[bholler]

Couldn't he brace the bottom with 2x8's on hangers, strip and replace the sagging sticky stone, and patch the cracks with furnace cement, then install a wood stove on a proper hearth extension?

A wood stove yes. But not an insert technically because that wouldnt bring the hearth extension up to code.

 

[robj80]

still waiting to get other people to come look at this. It is columbus day today so not expecting any callbacks. By rereading above it seems that a wood stove might be the way to go. I am sort of hoping so more and more. Should I be contacting more chimney sweep people, masons, or what to come look again at this.

 

[Sodbuster]

I'd strip it myself, shore up the bottom joist, and find a free standing wood stove that meets your clearances. You may have to create a type of alcove. that's what I had to do, when I removed my zero clearance fireplace. Much less than $7500 and now you have something that will truly heat your home.

 

[bholler]

I'd strip it myself, shore up the bottom joist, and find a free standing wood stove that meets your clearances. You may have to create a type of alcove. that's what I had to do, when I removed my zero clearance fireplace. Much less than $7500 and now you have something that will truly heat your home.

What if its the chimney pulling away not the hearth sagging? He needs to find out what is going on for sure before doing anything

 

[robj80]

Please explain "shore up bottom joist". What in the image I posted is wrong? Do you have pics of your stove and alcove?

I am definitely going to find out if the chimney is pulling away or if it is the hearth before doing anything.

 

[Sodbuster]

bholler, I'm simply going by the pics he posted and, especially the one from the basement. That pic looks like the form or the concrete is running downhill. That's also why I suggested having a local sweep, or mason look at it first hand rather than going by what is said on here. Pics only go so far in some cases.