EV developments

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I saw something and I think calendar age was the dominant factor over charging speed.

Tesla has all the data. If it was an issue under warranty time frame they would make changes. It’s going to an issue for cars older than 8 years. I’m at 81% original capacity.

What kills batteries is storing at soc above 90% in hot temps. (Mine was a Florida car with daily max charge set to 90%).
 
EatenByLimestone said:
I remember seeing somewhere, maybe it was here, that batteries that were only charged at a home charger degraded much slower than ones charged with fast chargers.
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I seem to remember that too, but couldn't find the post. I don't think it's "much" different, but iirc people who used primarily DCFC saw a few % more degradation after several years compared to exclusive L2 charging.
 
EbS-P said:
I sat in a VW Buzz yesterday. It was RWD (RWD seats 7 and the AWD 6) and had 234 miles of range and 83 mpge. It’s been over 8 years since Tesla released the Model X. It’s smaller than the Buzz but can seat 7. My 8 year old battery has the same range as new Buzz (and it not aging well compared to other 100kwh pack build in 2016/2017) and my X had a rating of 86 MPGe. I know the epa test has changed but in 8 years I would have hoped to see better improvements.

My assessment is the VW is a really big (think suburban) people hauler for the city. A missed opportunity for something efficient. If you don’t mind the range, have lots of people to haul and like the retro nod, it’s worth a serious consideration. If this is the best that can be done battery improvements are really the only path forward.

Im beginning to line up replacements for my Model X. i need to see the EV9 in person.
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The Buzz is a disappointment. Widely panned. The EPA rating masks the loss of range at higher highway speeds due to poor aerodynamics. So, I agree... an urban/suburban people hauler. Not the roadtrip-worthy VW Bus of old.
 
woodgeek said:
The Buzz is a disappointment. Widely panned. The EPA rating masks the loss of range at higher highway speeds due to poor aerodynamics. So, I agree... an urban/suburban people hauler. Not the roadtrip-worthy VW Bus of old.
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Was the old VW bus really road trip worthy?? According to my father who owned several they were “death at any speed”

I remember being left stranded in our 21 window in the middle of nowhere CO next to a pasture with a giant bull I was very the fence would not contain and watch him very carefully from the turtle top /sitting on the roof while my dad flagged a farmer down to get somewhere to get a working coil.
 
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Neat video comparing Bolt and Kona EV batteries at 8:30 mark.

The use a high power propane burner to try and initiate a thermal runaway. Bolts pouch cells didn’t do so well.

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EbS-P said:
Was the old VW bus really road trip worthy?? According to my father who owned several they were “death at any speed”

I remember being left stranded in our 21 window in the middle of nowhere CO next to a pasture with a giant bull I was very the fence would not contain and watch him very carefully from the turtle top /sitting on the roof while my dad flagged a farmer down to get somewhere to get a working coil.
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Everyone I've talked to who drove a VW bus said they were death traps and the air cooled engine was prone to overheating on the highway. Many owners learned the hard way not to drive them over 55 mph. So, the new one is maintaining that legacy at least?
 
The older I get, the more I realize that most of my (not work) driving is done under 55mph.

I’m thinking all those 60hp vehicles of the past would probably be just fine for me as long as I had something to go on the highway with when I needed to.
 
EatenByLimestone said:
The older I get, the more I realize that most of my (not work) driving is done under 55mph.

I’m thinking all those 60hp vehicles of the past would probably be just fine for me as long as I had something to go on the highway with when I needed to.
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That’s what I’m landing at. I have a super extra large road tripper and but my daily is miles are could be done in something slow and small.
 
It makes me wonder what mpg manufacturers could get if they took advantage of motorcycle laws and expanded the 3 wheel rules to a 4 seater.

Say Miata or Jeep CJ sized, but not sporty in nature. Remember the old mail jeeps? Lol. Engine development has come a long way since the days that AMC and Kaiser made the Jeep. I bet they’d get much better mpg from a much smaller engine now.
 
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EatenByLimestone said:
It makes me wonder what mpg manufacturers could get if they took advantage of motorcycle laws and expanded the 3 wheel rules to a 4 seater.

Say Miata or Jeep CJ sized, but not sporty in nature. Remember the old mail jeeps? Lol. Engine development has come a long way since the days that AMC and Kaiser made the Jeep. I bet they’d get much better mpg from a much smaller engine now.
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My 3/4 ton high roof sprinter with a 2.0L diesel gets 22 around town and if you keep it under 70 mph 20 oh the highway. Same motor has been in the E class(I think) for a decade and is really efficient but we didn’t get it the US. And diesel will be phased out in the EU.

The average consumer doesn’t want efficiency because energy is so cheap. Yes you could make a 3 wheeler that got crazy milage. Aptera is trying. I don’t see any real market for it in the US. https://aptera.us/
 
gthomas785 said:
Everyone I've talked to who drove a VW bus said they were death traps and the air cooled engine was prone to overheating on the highway. Many owners learned the hard way not to drive them over 55 mph. So, the new one is maintaining that legacy at least?
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That was true of the early ones, but not so with the later vans that bumped up to the 1600 engine. They were underpowered, but fairly reliable. A friend drove his 69 from CT to Mexico a couple of times at freeway speeds and many thousands of miles on local highways.
 
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Well, we really don’t know how well it works. I’ve seen enough driving and truck crash videos from China to make me wonder how much could go wrong before they consider it an issue.

But yeah, if it works great, that’d be awesome! But right now I have fears that it might work as well as the story about the guy driving an RV who turned on cruise control, then went to go make a sandwich in back.
 
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Just because a company in China says something works doesn't mean it works. I remain very skeptical that the Chinese engineering culture has changed that much in 10 years that they no longer cut corners in search of ever cheaper costs. It is also fairly easy to demonstrate under carefully controlled conditions that something like self-driving technology can work most of the time. Or something like Generative AI can be 10% the cost and take 10% of the time and/or energy.

Tesla is another great example of the marketing claims getting ahead of the engineering capabilities.
 
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The Chinese are very capable of making good vehicles just as they can also make poor ones. The progress this country has made in the past 25 yrs. is staggering. They are way ahead of the world in EV manufacturing and setting the pace.

You would think that the CEO of Ford would know something about cars. He brought over a Xiaomi SU7 for his personal use last year. After 6 months of using it as a daily driver, he said that he was reluctant to give it back. It's a mistake to underestimate the Chinese car industry.
 
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The last 15 years many western-educated scientists.and engineers have gone back to China. That was much less the case earlier.

That skill and talent set has made a huge difference there.
 
DBoon said:
Just because a company in China says something works doesn't mean it works. I remain very skeptical that the Chinese engineering culture has changed that much in 10 years that they no longer cut corners in search of ever cheaper costs. It is also fairly easy to demonstrate under carefully controlled conditions that something like self-driving technology can work most of the time. Or something like Generative AI can be 10% the cost and take 10% of the time and/or energy.

Tesla is another great example of the marketing claims getting ahead of the engineering capabilities.
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They are out competing Tesla. To make something really cheap compromises must be made. Is quality one of them? Probably but I bet that if they wanted to compete in a market where quality was preferred overpriced their quality would be impeccable.

BYD was selling 500k units a month at the end of 2024! You can’t be profitable if you have a lot of warranty issues! That’s a lot of vehicles! Total US vehicle sales bounce around from 1-1.5 million per month!
 
GM is shutting down one of its manufacturing plants in China. Their cars are considered to be of lower quality and thus having trouble competing in the Chinese market.
 
Has China improved capabilities in the last 25 years? Of course. Do they compete more effectively than 25 years ago? Of course. Would I purchase a Chinese-branded product that costs on the order of $20-40,000 of my own money? No - not yet. Sorry guys, I've been inside the belly of the Chinese design and manufacturing beast and while it is impressive for cost and scale reasons, their rampant substitution of cheaper or counterfeit parts, disregard for quality control and/or precise product documentation, and willingness to overlook just about anything if the price is cheaper is a big concern for me. Might that be better in 10 years? Sure, it probably will be. I'll let other people buy the first Chinese-brand cars imported into the US (that a trusted Western brand isn't standing behind) and then we'll see how it goes.

Having said that, would I be worried if I worked for a US or European car company? Absolutely.
 
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China will manufacture to the purchaser's spec. Ask for cheap and they will provide cheap. They are very capable of making good products that last and are safe. I have a 10 yr old Makita 1/2" lithium drill that has been a real workhorse and flawless. I thought it was Japanese, but they just specced out the requirements. There are a lot of Chinese mini-splits installed. The parent company, Midea, is the world's largest manufacturer of heat pumps I think. That said, am I likely to ever own a Chinese car? Probably not, though I have a Korean car now and never thought I would.
 
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I'm with @DBoon on this one. I've bought enough Chinese stuff off of Amazon to know that everything seems to be made as cheaply as possible. Quality, what's that. I bought a solar light a couple years ago that lasted maybe two days after I hung it up. They begged me in broken English to not leave them a bad review on Amazon.

This article popped up on my news feed a few days ago about Chinese cars and automakers. One excerpt from the article that made me wince a little:

Another example: the brace that fits behind the instrument panel and bolts below the A-pillars in most vehicles. In Chinese EVs or a Tesla, that brace might be made of plastic or a combination of thin metal with plastic brackets. In a Detroit 3 EV, the brace is likely to be made of thick aluminum, a costly carryover from combustion vehicles. This, Woychowski says, is an example of legacy automakers moving too slowly.
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I will gladly pay more for a car that meets NHTSA crash standards, and is made out of metal vs plastic.
 
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My buddy was talking the other day about how BYD was blowing everyone away in terms of EV tech and cost. He had heard that their MSRP were 1/3 of Tesla's for the same quality car.

I pointed put that Tesla is building and selling EVs in China in volume, while legacy makers are all struggling there. They are rolling out their best tech and their newest assembly methods in Shanghai first.

I said that Chinese buyers buying Tesla's in volume means that there isn't a 3:1 price/value discrepancy with BYD there.

Ofc, Tesla prices in China are lower than US, but that can be currency and cost of materials, not nebulous 'tech' or know-how.

So, overall, I think Tesla is keeping up with Chinese brands, even if they lag a bit rolling that tech to Europe next (also competing with BYD) and then to the US dead last (bc of the dearth of competition here).

Of course, I've been saying the same here for years... I'm a broken record.

So if you want to see what price/value/durability factor would be on a hypothetical Chinese EV built in the US from US materials and to US safety standards... just go test drive a Tesla. It'll be close.
 
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woodgeek said:
So if you want to see what price/value/durability factor would be on a hypothetical Chinese EV built in the US from US materials and to US safety standards... just go test drive a Tesla. It'll be close.
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Well said. China has close to a decade lead in many areas compared to the US. We are behind! Your experience ordering items from Amazon or Temu because they were cheap should not stand as evidence to over all quality. But rather the priority you place on those items you purchased.
 
Chinese market performance for Tesla does have a contributing factor for driving "a western car", just like Mercedes... - or Pizza Hut for that matter. No one claimed those were brands with a quality to be jealous of, but the psychology does make them sell in (urban) China beyond what their relative quality would suggest they should.
 
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