EV developments

[woodgeek]

I thought Elon was all in on the robotaxi stuff and ditching the Model 2 ? Or did that change over night because the investors starting ditching the stock.

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-scraps-low-cost-car-plans-amid-fierce-chinese-ev-competition-2024-04-05/

Elon likes to keep himself in front of the press and the lime light. Can't say I'm a big fan of his, but he does know how to build successful companies from the ground up. He should probably focus on one company ( SpaceX would be my guess), and then hire competent management staff to run the others.

Elon gets excited about lots of things... the robo-taxis have been a fascination of his for a long time.

AFAIK, Tesla has been planning on building a Model 2 factory in Mexico for awhile, and that was true both before and after the Reuters' scoop on it being cancelled.

 

[sloeffle]

AFAIK, Tesla has been planning on building a Model 2 factory in Mexico for awhile, and that was true both before and after the Reuters' scoop on it being cancelled.

I'll believe it when I see it. The Cybertruck was how many years behind schedule ( now recalled because the accelerator sticks ) and they haven't done a major refresh of any other their other vehicles in how long ?

 

[EbS-P]

Last thing I knew the 4860 cell production was not going well

Panasonic delays Tesla 4680 battery cell production

Panasonic announced that it is delaying volume production of the Tesla 4680 battery cell in order to introduce “performance improvement...

electrek.co

From what I gather in house 4680 was a hedge several years ago. If all the manufacturers were producing what they said there were going to in 2024 battery supplies would be tight. Not the case now. It’s just going in the cyber truck. (Could be wrong).

 

[EbS-P]

I just got to drive 120 miles on the interstate with Teslas newest self driving software. They gave me loaner 2021 Model 3 RWD (I think) even though they didn’t have too.

It was good. Averaged 240 whr/mile at 79 mph with the AC on it was 85 today.

100$ a month is a lot but I’d totally pay for it for a long road trip. Vacation lasting more than a week. Honestly it’s like having a multiple drivers looking at all the mirrors and out all the windows as once. The car has 21k miles on it. The ride was good. Charged faster than I could eat a BBQ sandwich.

 

[woodgeek]

I'll believe it when I see it. The Cybertruck was how many years behind schedule ( now recalled because the accelerator sticks ) and they haven't done a major refresh of any other their other vehicles in how long ?

Agree that Cyber rollout was a disaster of delays (as was the X). Both were overengineered vanity objects IMO.

However, the 3 and Y have been remodelled extensively, the new models are on the road in China now, and have started rolling out in EU. The US gets the new tech/updates last, bc we have the least competitive market.

In the US we have stale Tesla models competing with overpriced compliance cars.

 

[EbS-P]

Agree that Cyber rollout was a disaster of delays (as was the X). Both were overengineered vanity objects IMO.

However, the 3 and Y have been remodelled extensively, the new models are on the road in China now, and have started rolling out in EU. The US gets the new tech/updates last, bc we have the least competitive market.

In the US we have stale Tesla models competing with overpriced compliance cars.

New model 3 is out but doesn’t qualify for tax credit I think. Dealership was not hopping today with sales. First 120 miles In a reasonably priced Tesla. It was good. I haven’t driven much else lately but compared to my parents old Mazda 3 it was way better.

This idea of stale just doesn’t fit how I see my cars. I have an 12 year old RAV 4, and. 13 year old Odyssey and a 7 year old Model X. Yeah they are all stale. But all owned out right. I did like that the Odyssey has the same body from 2011-2018. Exact same. Then in 2019 is got some swoopy sides. Not much different same in 2024. I’d trade price and reliability for freshness any day. Says the guy who just got his warranty to drop another 3k on the Odessey. It’s been a lemon but at this point the transmission is the only thing left original (and the pistons and heards and crank but they all got a good cleaning at 75k miles when the rings got replaced on a recall.

 

[peakbagger]

Wow, Elon is making it up as he goes along https://electrek.co/2024/05/03/read...sending-to-suppliers-amid-supercharger-chaos/

Credibility is important for most business transactions, that letter just burned up a lot of it.

 

[sloeffle]

However, the 3 and Y have been remodelled extensively, the new models are on the road in China now, and have started rolling out in EU. The US gets the new tech/updates last, bc we have the least competitive market.

Changing the steering wheel to a yoke doesn't count as a remodel. Sorry, couldn't pass that one up.

From what I'm seeing from a DuckDuckGo search it looks like they just added some fender flares and called it a remodel. If you can provide some links to their new vehicles designs I'd be interested in seeing them. I *think* the problem with Tesla is, they can't produce quality vehicles ( they'd rank near last in JD Power rankings if Heir Elon would let them survey the owners ) with their current models so how could they build quality into a new or a highly refreshed model. The Cybertruck is a good example of them not being able to do that.

Maybe Elon should spend some time with the engineers over at Lexus / Toyota ( always at the top or new the top of the JD Power rankings ) to see how to properly refresh and build new vehicles and keep high quality standards.

I'm not a Tesla hater by any stretch of the means. I'm all for U.S. companies that employ Americans. But what I'm not a fan of is, a company that sells inferior products to consumers.

 

[peakbagger]

Its pretty standard in the tech industry to release products that are "good enough" to sell. The bugs are then fixed after the sale. The tech industry also is also not known to do well with long term support of legacy products. They would much rather sell new versions complete with new bugs. Tesla has just reverted to its origins.

 

[woodgeek]

Changing the steering wheel to a yoke doesn't count as a remodel. Sorry, couldn't pass that one up.

From what I'm seeing from a DuckDuckGo search it looks like they just added some fender flares and called it a remodel. If you can provide some links to their new vehicles designs I'd be interested in seeing them. I *think* the problem with Tesla is, they can't produce quality vehicles ( they'd rank near last in JD Power rankings if Heir Elon would let them survey the owners ) with their current models so how could they build quality into a new or a highly refreshed model. The Cybertruck is a good example of them not being able to do that.

Maybe Elon should spend some time with the engineers over at Lexus / Toyota ( always at the top or new the top of the JD Power rankings ) to see how to properly refresh and build new vehicles and keep high quality standards.

I'm not a Tesla hater by any stretch of the means. I'm all for U.S. companies that employ Americans. But what I'm not a fan of is, a company that sells inferior products to consumers.

Both remodels are very deep. You can watch the Munro teardowns. The frame went from bent steel to large castings. The power train is all new, higher efficiency. The glass is going to acoustic glass. Suspension is changed. Basically, both 3 and Y are new vehicles using the old badge.

Neither is launched in the US yet. But they are only what is available in China now.

The first gen vehicles were sketchy and did not drive like premium vehicles. The refreshed ones drive and feel very different, and actually cheaper to build.

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[EbS-P]

Wow, Elon is making it up as he goes along https://electrek.co/2024/05/03/read...sending-to-suppliers-amid-supercharger-chaos/

Credibility is important for most business transactions, that letter just burned up a lot of it.

We all just have to put up with it because they are the biggest game in town and all the vendors probably need the Tesla contracts to stay in the black.

Changing the steering wheel to a yoke doesn't count as a remodel. Sorry, couldn't pass that one up.

From what I'm seeing from a DuckDuckGo search it looks like they just added some fender flares and called it a remodel. If you can provide some links to their new vehicles designs I'd be interested in seeing them. I *think* the problem with Tesla is, they can't produce quality vehicles ( they'd rank near last in JD Power rankings if Heir Elon would let them survey the owners ) with their current models so how could they build quality into a new or a highly refreshed model. The Cybertruck is a good example of them not being able to do that.

Maybe Elon should spend some time with the engineers over at Lexus / Toyota ( always at the top or new the top of the JD Power rankings ) to see how to properly refresh and build new vehicles and keep high quality standards.

I'm not a Tesla hater by any stretch of the means. I'm all for U.S. companies that employ Americans. But what I'm not a fan of is, a company that sells inferior products to consumers.

it got interior LED rbg lights rear screen and new “active” suspension dampers. Honestly the old one is as good as anything I’ve driven in the last 10 years for a sedan. Refresh was just compete in china. I don’t need a refresh look or a couple new features I’m looking for value. And by that I reliable and affordable. Yes looks matter. I don’t like the new Camry. I’d choose the accord. But if you want an EV you have to really hate Musk to not get a Tesla. I’m more selfish. I guess. I’m ok with a Tesla until there is a Union made choice that is competitive to the 3/Y.

 

[EbS-P]

Changing the steering wheel to a yoke doesn't count as a remodel. Sorry, couldn't pass that one up.

From what I'm seeing from a DuckDuckGo search it looks like they just added some fender flares and called it a remodel. If you can provide some links to their new vehicles designs I'd be interested in seeing them. I *think* the problem with Tesla is, they can't produce quality vehicles ( they'd rank near last in JD Power rankings if Heir Elon would let them survey the owners ) with their current models so how could they build quality into a new or a highly refreshed model. The Cybertruck is a good example of them not being able to do that.

Maybe Elon should spend some time with the engineers over at Lexus / Toyota ( always at the top or new the top of the JD Power rankings ) to see how to properly refresh and build new vehicles and keep high quality standards.

I'm not a Tesla hater by any stretch of the means. I'm all for U.S. companies that employ Americans. But what I'm not a fan of is, a company that sells inferior products to consumers.

I don’t think Tesla’s are inferior. They had a steep learning curve and the model 3/Y shows what they learned. Elon knows how to engineer quality. Cars don’t need space X quality. He supposedly slept on the factory floor getting the model 3 assembly kinks worked out. He doesn’t need an engineer to tell him how to design it better. He needs 6 different types of engineers to figure out how to make it cheaper. He’s after profit. He’s not making a million mile car even if he says he is. We can’t afford those and don’t need them.

He will strip a company down to see where it falls apart then fix the weak spots. He’s a jerk but you don’t get to that level by caring about your employees or the quality of your products. You care about profits only.

Cyber truck is a technology proving ground. If they can leverage a stainless body, 48 V, drive by wire, with existing tech in the 3/Y cars at a sub 30k price point with 15% or higher margin they could have a nearly unbeatable product for 5 years????

 

[stoveliker]

Many CEOs are jerks, but what shields them is that they don't expose themselves as jerks to the general (consuming) public.
I do think this jerk-exhibitionisting will affect the bottomline at Tesla. I for one will not get one, however good it would be for the environment, because of the way he treats people that help him make a lot of dollars.

 

[begreen]

Many CEOs are jerks, but what shields them is that they don't expose themselves as jerks to the general (consuming) public.
I do think this jerk-exhibitionisting will affect the bottomline at Tesla. I for one will not get one, however good it would be for the environment, because of the way he treats people that help him make a lot of dollars.

Yes, that factors in for me too along with the safety issues of the 100% dependency on the central digital screen, and rougher ride. There simply are better options.

 

[EbS-P]

Many CEOs are jerks, but what shields them is that they don't expose themselves as jerks to the general (consuming) public.
I do think this jerk-exhibitionisting will affect the bottomline at Tesla. I for one will not get one, however good it would be for the environment, because of the way he treats people that help him make a lot of dollars.

Once they have real competition he will be a liability, just like their lack of service centers and appointments. 4 weeks to get mine in and then had to cancel because they couldn’t get it done for 5 days. So I waited another 4 weeks. My Honda called Tuesday. appointment Wednesday, Parts arrived Thursday, done Friday with a profuse apology that they didn’t get it finished Thursday. It was $1700 in labor. That’s about 8-9 hours.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Many CEOs are jerks, but what shields them is that they don't expose themselves as jerks to the general (consuming) public.
I do think this jerk-exhibitionisting will affect the bottomline at Tesla. I for one will not get one, however good it would be for the environment, because of the way he treats people that help him make a lot of dollars.

I wonder if the other companies making EVs are paying Tesla to use their patents.

 

[EbS-P]

I wonder if the other companies making EVs are paying Tesla to use their patents.

There were rumors about licensing their self driving software. I haven’t heard of anyone. And really that getting out wouldn’t help sales. More likely if they do it will be some metallurgical formulation or process. You really don’t what to Tesla poison your well. Not having anything to do with Tesla may be a stronger selling point than any features of their products.

 

[stoveliker]

I wonder if the other companies making EVs are paying Tesla to use their patents.

I think most businesses only would license the IP after they have a technological lead on their competition that they are confident they can sustain for the forseeable future. I don't think that's the case currently (see Chinese BEVs).

 

[woodgeek]

I wonder if the other companies making EVs are paying Tesla to use their patents.

Highly unlikely as their IP is not that valuable. Battery tech is advancing so fast that Tesla is licensing CATL's battery tech, not using their own.

Ofc, the legacy makers are paying Tesla over a billion a year (about what Tesla clears in profit on all other activities) for carbon credits. And will keep doing so until they start to sell BEVs folks want to buy, at scale.

 

[DBoon]

At the end he's a tech bro, and most of his thinking is colored by that.

And a tech bro that has demanded that his investment be increased by the board from something like 18% of Tesla to 30% of Tesla, during a period of declining profitability. Is he jettisoning things that are probably pretty critical to the longer term success of the company because he isn't getting what he wants from the board? Or is he doing this because he needs to show profits to Wall Street lest he get pushed out and/or his net worth (which is what he uses to fund some of his other ventures) collapses?

He should probably focus on one company ( SpaceX would be my guess), and then hire competent management staff to run the others.

A true tech bro doesn't believe that competent managers actually exist, and that is the problem we have here, along with the fact that he has spread himself very thin.

I am no fan of Microsoft (in general), but you have to admire the guy (Bill Gates) who managed it when it was a startup with a few people all the way through to going public and being worth hundreds of billions of dollars in market cap and tens of thousands of employees. Not too many people have the ability to successfully manage a company through that full range of sizes and complexities and product maturities.

 

[woodgeek]

I am no fan of Microsoft (in general), but you have to admire the guy (Bill Gates) who managed it when it was a startup with a few people all the way through to going public and being worth hundreds of billions of dollars in market cap and tens of thousands of employees. Not too many people have the ability to successfully manage a company through that full range of sizes and complexities and product maturities.

I agreed with you up to Bill. The only real skill he had was making money by setting up and defending an exploitative monopolistic practice using stolen tech (both DOS and Windows were unlicensed ripoffs of others work). And using the cash from that to destroy the actual tech innovators in the 90s and early 2000s using misinformation campaigns and massive advertising efforts.

The way we now seamlessly relate to technology around smart phones, with wireless apps for everything... that technology and model existed in the mid 90s, and Bill kept it suppressed with his anti-competitive efforts until iPhone broke the dam he built. He retired as the ship was sinking, and Nadella is the one who has built the current innovative and successful company from Bill's ashes.

Not to mention Bill's repulsive personal behavior. Which is worse than anything I have heard alleged for Musk.

 

[walhondingnashua]

Its pretty standard in the tech industry to release products that are "good enough" to sell. The bugs are then fixed after the sale. The tech industry also is also not known to do well with long term support of legacy products. They would much rather sell new versions complete with new bugs. Tesla has just reverted to its origins.

So the future of EVs is the same as the iPhone...

 

[EbS-P]

So the future of EVs is the same as the iPhone...

Tesla has to the car market what Apple did to the cellphone market. Who will be the equivalent of Nokia?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Tesla has to the car market what Apple did to the cellphone market. Who will be the equivalent of Nokia?

Fiskar

 

[begreen]

Fiskar

As in bankrupt? I was thinking more like BYD, though Tata has come up with a basic EV for India that is interesting.