EPA - New Rules, Many Stoves will become obsolete

[stoveguy2esw]

here's my take , and those of you stil running pre - epa stove please don't take offense to what im saying.

rather than implementing more stringent standards (which wont have any effect for decades with woodstoves, sooner with pellet stoves as the turn over rate is higher) why not work harder to bring the current fleet of roughly the 35% of woodburners in north America which are pre-epa units up to the current standard through incentives. say "cash for chokers" similar to state and locally run swap out programs?

if you look at the differential between phase 2 units and non regulated one the differential is massive compared to the gains between the current new stove requirements and the ones coming down the pike. to me this is where real progress could be made faster if you take a quarter million pre epa units off stream the effect would be the same as replacing 2 million phase 2 stoves with the new standard ones if not greater.

 

[BrotherBart]

if you take a quarter million pre epa units off stream the effect would be the same as replacing 2 million phase 2 stoves with the new standard ones if not greater.

But I don't need none of that new stuff. The old stuff works just fine.

Sent from my iPhone

 

[Lake Girl]

Wrong stove lists

What do you mean wrong stove lists?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

What do you mean wrong stove lists?

The EPA is famous for running multiple lists and not all approved devices are always on each one. A lot of those stoves are only there because of being exempt and thus do not meet the new certification standards.

They are allowed by default and a lot them will not be salable as meeting the "new standards".

Being approved is not the same as meeting current certification standards. Funny that

It is a huge play on words. Exactly like the efficiency numbers. Government like a bad neighbor is always there to ....

 

[Lake Girl]

Realize many listed will not meet new standards but it is the current list of "certified". Informative list as has pm values...

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Realize many listed will not meet new standards but it is the current list of "certified". Informative list as has pm values...

I choose to call it an approved stove list since most of the stoves on that list do not meet any certifications and were as Mike mentioned grandfathered by law (but given current stuff going on here in the good ole USofA I'm surprised that they haven't just simply removed all of the exempt stoves and sent around the stove destruction police).

 

[The Grintch]

Another rule to follow by the Nanny!

 

[BrotherBart]

I ain't worried about the EPA. And I retired from an oil company with a couple of exes in its name. And still have a basic ton of their stock.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I choose to call it an approved stove list since most of the stoves on that list do not meet any certifications and were as Mike mentioned grandfathered by law (but given current stuff going on here in the good ole USofA I'm surprised that they haven't just simply removed all of the exempt stoves and sent around the stove destruction police).

I can see us all in line at the police station to turn in our stoves and the cops cutting them up with chop saws.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I ain't worried about the EPA. And I retired from an oil company with a couple of exes in its name. And still have a basic ton of their stock.

One oil spill by that oil company and Big Brother EPA will turn that stock into pretty toilet paper.

 

[BrotherBart]

Two last year. Stock is up 33% in that year. Since when does the EPA control stock prices?

 

[Madcodger]

Holy cow... I go off and do things on a Saturday and when I return some folks have built themselves a bunker and holed up to prepare for an onslaught by imaginary storm troopers. It's a proposed regulation, open for public comment. Take a few minutes, write up your opinion, and let 'em know. Personally, I like the idea of cleaner, likely more efficient stoves. The advantage we can have in the US is technology. Creating regulation that requires better technology supports that advantage.

And as long as I'm commenting, let me point out that we can't do anything about how much coal they burn in China except buy less of the stuff made there and more of the stuff made here. Raise the standards, and you support that AND get some cleaner air as well. But again, the regs are PROPOSED. The nice thing about being in the U.S. is that you get to have a voice somewhere more official than the pellet stove forum. Go use it by all means, and then let's get back to comparing stoves and pellets and arguing about things we can do something about. I haven't had a good OAK argument in 2 or 3 days!

 

[tjnamtiw]

Two last year. Stock is up 33% in that year. Since when does the EPA control stock prices?

Wow, spill oil and make money!! Who would have thunk it? Haven't you noticed, the EPA controls everything, including which towns the Indians are awarded. Riverton, Wyoming. All they need to do is enact new rules to prevent those spills that involve impossible regulations and solid gold valves and pipes. Just kidding.
Now that you're retired, have you noticed you have no time to do all the stuff you did when you worked? (not counting monitoring all the crazies on here!)

 

[MountainSean]

My take on the regulations is that they are a good thing. I am using a twenty+ year old stove design that is over 81% efficient with 1 G/Hour emissions. If a stove that old can meet the requirements that are still years down the road then why can't new stoves be made to that standard? It may affect my thoughts on it that I live in one of those areas where wood smoke is a huge problem in the winter since we are ringed by mountains and have a lot of inversion layers through the season. If the goals were unrealistic or hideously expensive (see some of the EPA coal plant requirements for that) then I might be against them, but the technology has existed to hit the numbers they are looking at for years now at a pretty comparatively low cost.

 

[BrotherBart]

Now that you're retired, have you noticed you have no time to do all the stuff you did when you worked?

Yes. I don't know how that happens.

 

[ZBrooks]

Are there any stoves in production today that do not meet the proposed regs?

 

[ivanhoe]

Holy cow... I go off and do things on a Saturday and when I return some folks have built themselves a bunker and holed up to prepare for an onslaught by imaginary storm troopers. It's a proposed regulation, open for public comment. Take a few minutes, write up your opinion, and let 'em know. Personally, I like the idea of cleaner, likely more efficient stoves. The advantage we can have in the US is technology. Creating regulation that requires better technology supports that advantage.

And as long as I'm commenting, let me point out that we can't do anything about how much coal they burn in China except buy less of the stuff made there and more of the stuff made here. Raise the standards, and you support that AND get some cleaner air as well. But again, the regs are PROPOSED. The nice thing about being in the U.S. is that you get to have a voice somewhere more official than the pellet stove forum. Go use it by all means, and then let's get back to comparing stoves and pellets and arguing about things we can do something about. I haven't had a good OAK argument in 2 or 3 days!

There's not much un-Chinese made stuff to buy anymore. Our governments let go on the reigns to keep manufacturing jobs here for our future citizens so all for CEO's and share holder's fill their pockets. They drove the oil price up before implementing higher gas mileage regulations vehicle's so they could bleed us to death. I do not trust any government officials, I've seen too many corrupted stories and regulations and would be very hesitant to believe it's for the better... Been a proposal, you better get your voice heard or get ready for higher pellet cost in the very near future. I say government should be OAK'ed so we could live more efficiently!

 

[krooser]

TJNAMTIW, What is this Riverton Wyoming thing you talk about ? any articles ???

Riverton (Arapaho: Hóóxonó'oo [6]) is a city in Fremont County, Wyoming,United States that the Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Interior and Department of Justice in early December 2013 declared to be under the jurisdiction of the Wind River Indian Reservation as delegated authority under the Clean Air Act.[7] The city's population was 10,615 at the 2010 census.

 

[Mt Bob]

My take on the regulations is that they are a good thing. I am using a twenty+ year old stove design that is over 81% efficient with 1 G/Hour emissions. If a stove that old can meet the requirements that are still years down the road then why can't new stoves be made to that standard? It may affect my thoughts on it that I live in one of those areas where wood smoke is a huge problem in the winter since we are ringed by mountains and have a lot of inversion layers through the season. If the goals were unrealistic or hideously expensive (see some of the EPA coal plant requirements for that) then I might be against them, but the technology has existed to hit the numbers they are looking at for years now at a pretty comparatively low cost.

Your old stove would never meet the "new testing method standards because manf.will not reproduce "new" old style stoves just for testing,and they will not come to your house for testing.Then the next step is your insurance company."your heating appliance does not meet the new standards,you have to upgrade"Ever wonder why there are no "new " small airplanes?

 

[Harvey Schneider]

Yep more totalitarian government.The EPA has caused more financial ruin to this country than just about anything else.

I have worked in two industries controlled by government agencies. The medical device industry controlled by the FDA and Commercial aviation controlled by the FAA. Trust me when I say that the people at the EPA are rank amateurs, by comparison, when it comes to screwing up an industry. Something happens to ordinary people when you give them absolute power over a thing.

 

[Mt Bob]

I have worked in two industries controlled by government agencies. The medical device industry controlled by the FDA and Commercial aviation controlled by the FAA. Trust me when I say that the people at the EPA are rank amateurs, by comparison, when it comes to screwing up an industry. Something happens to ordinary people when you give them absolute power over a thing.

I believe you have probably seen the worse!Being in the automotive field I can show you why your $10,000 truck costs $55,000,and your older units are being forced into obsolesnce?(sic?) by ethanol.

 

[Doug MacIVER]

Yes. I don't know how that happens.

it will be there tomorrow.

 

[Stevekng]

Wrong stove lists

I didn't see QuadraFire Castile FS or St. Croix Afton Bay.

 

[smwilliamson]

Are there any stoves in production today that do not meet the proposed regs?

Yes. There are many. However. many of them are older designs still in production. The Englander double auger stoves come to mind...those are 30% of my service volume, not cause their bad...just because they are plentiful. Every other person has one it seems. They can still use them, they just need a redesign to comply.

 

[smwilliamson]

Your old stove would never meet the "new testing method standards because manf.will not reproduce "new" old style stoves just for testing,and they will not come to your house for testing.Then the next step is your insurance company."your heating appliance does not meet the new standards,you have to upgrade"Ever wonder why there are no "new " small airplanes?

I have wondered that..it is always a 1983 Cesna or something like that