EPA - New Rules, Many Stoves will become obsolete

[jtakeman]

The biggest part of the rule that I'm excited about is the fact that all stoves will now have to state their efficiency. No more default 78% and hide away the real numbers. This will help some models and hurt some others but many makers hide the fact that their stoves (and we are talking about very well known brands here cause I've seen the redacted documents) are simply very inefficient. Anyone know of an insert that was recently resigned? Just sayin...

Yep, I though that default chit was bogus! Glad the stove I bought has an actual number! I was suprised at some of the brand names that used the default even! But, I bet there could still be some loop holes that give the brands an in even if they can't meet standards.

Are they just looking at exhaust emissions(particulate)? With some of the stoves I have seen the heat exchangers seem to be sub par and can't figure how they could meet standards in they tighten the grip on overall efficiency.

 

[RKS130]

What's going to change? Particulate filters?

Rule of Thumb: If the government is involved they will screw it up. Just sayin.

 

[vinny11950]

this subject is beyond my knowledge, so i will ask the question from more knowledgeable members:

are the target numbers of 2.5 and 1.3 achievable and reasonable in the 12 year cycle they are proposing?

my pellet stove info states EPA tested 2 grams per hour, though it does not say at what setting.

 

[Bioburner]

Colorado should implement these rules first. Things have went to pot there. New meaning to Rocky mountain high!

 

[tjnamtiw]

Yep more tolatarian government.The epa has caused more financial ruin to this country than just about anything else.

Right on, Bob. Be glad you don't live in Riverton, Wy They didn't just take away their stoves. They gave the whole darn town to the Indians! What does the EPA have to do with that? We are lost! I hope everyone in Riverton has plenty of guns and ammo!

 

[richg]

They got to be very careful considering the price of pellets has increased over 20% in the three years i have been burning and looks to continue. With the time and effort that is needed to heat this way without substantial savings the sector will come to a screeching halt.

Pellets are at the lowest prices I have seen in a long time. Not sure if you were heating with pellets during the Great Pellet Panic of 2008, but that was a treat. Pellets were $350.00+ per ton and that was if you could find them. Crazy people were paying $500.00 per ton on Ebay. Pellets used to be around $190.00 per ton pre-Katrina, and then immediately spiked to $220-$275.00 post Katrina. The local big box stores in NJ are currently selling them for around $200-210.00 per ton which is pretty reasonable, especially when you consider that adjusted for inflation, $190.00 in 2004 equals $235.00 today. Saving money is nice but is not assured when heating with pellets as pellet prices generally move in tandem with petroleum prices.....oil prices spike, so do pellets. The general recovery in residential homebuilding bodes well for pellets as that will provide a more reliable source of high-quality sawdust. When the residential market tanked, pellet mills had to use alternate sources including whole logs and wet chips. Not good.

As for the proposed EPA regs, well, they don't affect stoves that have already been installed. Several manufacturers including Blaze King and Woodstock are already making wood stoves with insanely low emission rates...the Blaze King Ashford 30 produces .97 grams per hour. the manufacturers who have to watch their backs include the el-cheapo stoves that barely pass EPA regs as they currently stand.

 

[Bioburner]

Right on, Bob. Be glad you don't live in Riverton, Wy They didn't just take away their stoves. They gave the whole darn town to the Indians! What does the EPA have to do with that? We are lost! I hope everyone in Riverton has plenty of guns and ammo!

Ammo disappeared over a year ago. Back to bows and arrows

 

[DamienBricka]

I personally am not a fan of to many regulations (I left France for that reason 33 years ago). I think the big problem is the lack of education. I hear people complaining that Wood stoves are dirty to operate (that could be true if it is not operated correctly) but I see cars on the road that are polluting also . I also see these same people not practicing what they preach.

 

[tjnamtiw]

I personally am not a fan of to many regulations (I left France for that reason 33 years ago). I think the big problem is the lack of education. I hear people complaining that Wood stoves are dirty to operate (that could be true if it is not operated correctly) but I see cars on the road that are polluting also . I also see these same people not practicing what they preach.

Amen! Same goes for those who refuse to use coal stoves because of their misconception that they are dirty. They are remembering the old monsters down in the basement and don't realize what a modern coal stove is like. And they want to save the world by not polluting. Tell me how maybe 100 million households or less are going to save the world when billions of other households are heating and cooking with buffalo and camel dung or burning OUR COAL that we are shipping to them instead of using ourselves? You're right > STUPID PEOPLE who long ago forgot how to think for themselves and believe whatever they are told over and over.

 

[velvetfoot]

Do the proposed regs affect coal?

 

[DamienBricka]

Amen! Same goes for those who refuse to use coal stoves because of their misconception that they are dirty. They are remembering the old monsters down in the basement and don't realize what a modern coal stove is like. And they want to save the world by not polluting. Tell me how maybe 100 million households or less are going to save the world when billions of other households are heating and cooking with buffalo and camel dung or burning OUR COAL that we are shipping to them instead of using ourselves? You're right > STUPID PEOPLE who long ago forgot how to think for themselves and believe whatever they are told over and over.

I remember several years back Al Gore saying we had to save the planet by conserving energy but the same year a reporter found out that he had more then 10000 lights decorating his house for Christmas. I also remember the former Ecology Minister Mr Mer (Of France) telling the French people to conserve energy by getting smaller cars when he has driving a gas guzzler SUV. These individuals are hypocrites but they run our contries.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Do the proposed regs affect coal?

Good question. Buy one now and you're grandfathered in. My cookstove is rated at 88% efficient.

 

[tjnamtiw]

China uses 1305 million metric tons of bituminous coal for electricity generation per year. I use 400 pounds of anthracite per year. Uhhh, lets divide 400 by 2,871,000,000,000 and see who is doing the most polluting............... They have already outstripped their supply and had to shut down power plants until they could get US coal.

 

[DamienBricka]

China uses 1305 million metric tons of bituminous coal for electricity generation per year. I use 400 pounds of anthracite per year. Uhhh, lets divide 400 by 2,871,000,000,000 and see who is doing the most polluting............... They have already outstripped their supply and had to shut down power plants until they could get US coal.

Why are you dividing 400 by 2,871,000,000,000. By my book they spend 2.5 times more then you do that is assuming you live home alone.

 

[chken]

First, these are proposed standards for the future. They won't effect existing stoves.

As with any new proposed regulation, it's a wait and see. We have to see what the effect will be upon mfrs of wood and pellet stoves. What will they have to do to meet the new standards, and what will they charge consumers.

I don't see the new standards as being all that onerous. They propose 2 ways to meet the new standard, one: starting at 4.5grams/hr, then 1.3grams/hr in 5 years. I think it's fair to say any pellet stove selling on the market today meets 4.5grams/hr. Most are probably in the 2grams/hr range. My Piazzetta is 2.3grams/hr. I know there were better performers when I went shopping, in the 1.x gram/hr range. 5 years is plenty of time for mfrs to improve their stoves.

The second possible implementation of the new rule seems even easier, is 4.5grams/hr now, 2.5 grams/hr in 3 years, and 1.3grams/hr in 8years! Again, that's plenty of time. My existing stove would meet that rule even if it were sold new 7 years from now.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

First, these are proposed standards for the future. They won't effect existing stoves.

As with any new proposed regulation, it's a wait and see. We have to see what the effect will be upon mfrs of wood and pellet stoves. What will they have to do to meet the new standards, and what will they charge consumers.

I don't see the new standards as being all that onerous. They propose 2 ways to meet the new standard, one: starting at 4.5grams/hr, then 1.3grams/hr in 5 years. I think it's fair to say any pellet stove selling on the market today meets 4.5grams/hr. Most are probably in the 2grams/hr range. My Piazzetta is 2.3grams/hr. I know there were better performers when I went shopping, in the 1.x gram/hr range. 5 years is plenty of time for mfrs to improve their stoves.

The second possible implementation of the new rule seems even easier, is 4.5grams/hr now, 2.5 grams/hr in 3 years, and 1.3grams/hr in 8years! Again, that's plenty of time. My existing stove would meet that rule even if it were sold new 7 years from now.

I have a better plan, start out with the current crop of me regulate you folks and reduce by 50% each year.

 

[DamienBricka]

I have a better plan, start out with the current crop of me regulate you folks and reduce by 50% each year.

I have no idea what you are talking about

 

[velvetfoot]

Regulate the regulators.

 

[DamienBricka]

Regulate the regulators.

I personally would fire them all.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Regulate the regulators.

You got it.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I personally fire them all.

Well I am slowly, 50% gone each year.

Why are you dividing 400 by 2,871,000,000,000. By my book they spend 2.5 times more then you do that is assuming you live home alone.

He doesn't live home alone and that figure he has you calculating shows what his consumption represents of the amount China is burning. .

 

[DamienBricka]

Well I am slowly, 50% gone each year.




He doesn't live home alone and that figure he has you calculating shows what his consumption represents of the amount China is burning. .

lol

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

lol

Take that big number and lop off the last 9 zeros and divide it by 1.3 and you have the per ca-pita coal burning rate in pounds in China.

Take tj's figure and divide by 2 to get the same figure for his case.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Why are you dividing 400 by 2,871,000,000,000. By my book they spend 2.5 times more then you do that is assuming you live home alone.

Je ne comprende pas? Spending?? That's the number of POUNDS of coal they use. I am/was showing how much of an impact I have on world pollution versus China. Multiply the number of people like me by 100,000 and it's still nothing!

And this is going to the ash can.

 

[DamienBricka]

Je ne comprende pas? Spending?? I am/was showing how much of an impact I have on world pollution versus China. Multiply the number of people like me by 100,000 and it's still nothing!

And this is going to the ash can.

I agree with you 100%