englander 25 pah issues

[SmokeyTheBear]

ok . stove from depot.
will check tomorrow to c if the burn pot teeters in the cradle or not. can prob clean with dremel if there are deposits on its underside preventing good seating. will also detach the oak and c what that results . think that's about all you want to know. just been thinking on my own that the combustion fan seems to b the heart and soul of this operation and keeping it fully cleaned and at the right speed where it pushes out the vent gases and pulls in fresh air might just b the entire enchilada. what are your thoughts on this dynamic? just want you to remember that renewing a door gasket and opening the oak without a mesh hasn't achieved anything in the way of flame performance. I know you and I are still thinking leak somewhere which is degrading the burn.

I don't want to step on other folks toes who are trying to help.

So I try to let them tell their story.

slvrblkk has been here longer than I have and is actually burning a product from the same company as yours. I've only seen that stove in a big box.

That having been said there are very few differences between how all of these devices work. They are basicly two intertwined air pumps. Both of which function best clean.

The combustion air path is critical for producing heat and it fouls its air-paths.

The stove needs a good supply of oxygen rich air to enter the intake and to make it to the burn pot, then through the pellet pile in the burn pot and continue on through the heat exchanger to the combustion blower where it gets pushed out the vent since the combustion blower can only pump so much air at each setting you can not afford to have air enter the stove.other than that that goes through the burn pile. The only exception is that that goes thorough any air wash system as that is taken into account in the burn program.

That is why gaskets, and any bypasses are critical, along with not making it difficult for the combustion blower to send the oxygen deprived air out of the system.

You shouldn't need a Dremel.

 

[slvrblkk]

If you are going to pull the blower, you will need a new gasket. It is very hard to remove the gasket without destroying that gasket.

 

[CaptSpiff]

If you are going to pull the blower, you will need a new gasket. It is very hard to remove the gasket without destroying that gasket.

Even if that stove is only a month old?

And thank you for suggesting removing the 2" OAK vent at the back of the stove. If this thing is breathing thru a 22' straw, that should be among the first items to be scratched off the problem list. Looks like it's not an issue though.

I don't like the 7' horizontal 3" pipe leading into the fire place flue. No doubt it connects to the 3" flex liner for its 15' vertical thru a cleanout T (another resistance element). That's a long way for the combustion fan to have to push. The relatively cool pellet exhaust never seems to develop the draft of a good hot wood stove, so I think smelm0 got some bad advice about the 3" liner. Might be better off to relocate the stove seven feet to the right and skip the horizontal pipe (as seen in first photo) altogether.

The problem (no disagreement by anybody) is to many pellets in the burn pot vs too little air flow thru the burning pellet pile in the pot. Whether you've got air leaks allowing for air flow around the burn pot, or blocked flow in the exhaust path, or a weak/clogged combustion fan, I'd definitely start looking for a vacuum type leaf blower and take a trip up the roof to meet mr chimney top. Time for the hammer.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

That vent setup falls into the

along with not making it difficult for the combustion blower to send the oxygen deprived air out of the system.

category.

 

[slvrblkk]

Even if that stove is only a month old?

And thank you for suggesting removing the 2" OAK vent at the back of the stove. If this thing is breathing thru a 22' straw, that should be among the first items to be scratched off the problem list. Looks like it's not an issue though.

I don't like the 7' horizontal 3" pipe leading into the fire place flue. No doubt it connects to the 3" flex liner for its 15' vertical thru a cleanout T (another resistance element). That's a long way for the combustion fan to have to push. The relatively cool pellet exhaust never seems to develop the draft of a good hot wood stove, so I think smelm0 got some bad advice about the 3" liner. Might be better off to relocate the stove seven feet to the right and skip the horizontal pipe (as seen in first photo) altogether.

The problem (no disagreement by anybody) is to many pellets in the burn pot vs too little air flow thru the burning pellet pile in the pot. Whether you've got air leaks allowing for air flow around the burn pot, or blocked flow in the exhaust path, or a weak/clogged combustion fan, I'd definitely start looking for a vacuum type leaf blower and take a trip up the roof to meet mr chimney top. Time for the hammer.

He can try it but those fiberglass gaskets Englander uses and not forgiving at all. He should have one one hand so he doesn't get "left out in the cold" so-to-speak. I make my own out of a lytherm type material which I typically reuse multiple times.

I missed the 7' of horizontal...I was taking it as 7' of pipe (vertical) in the chimney until it met the flex liner....but I guess that wouldn't make sense because then how the hell would you get at it in the chimney. I just went through all the posts again and now saw the vent setup in the one pic.....I didn't see the pipe earlier I "assumed" the vent went into the stone behind the stove. Although it does have what looks to be about 20 degrees of rise, that right there is probably what is choking the stove out with 3" vent.

 

[smelm0]

He can try it but those fiberglass gaskets Englander uses and not forgiving at all. He should have one one hand so he doesn't get "left out in the cold" so-to-speak. I make my own out of a lytherm type material which I typically reuse multiple times.

I missed the 7' of horizontal...I was taking it as 7' of pipe (vertical) in the chimney until it met the flex liner....but I guess that wouldn't make sense because then how the hell would you get at it in the chimney. I just went through all the posts again and now saw the vent setup in the one pic.....I didn't see the pipe earlier I "assumed" the vent went into the stone behind the stove. Although it does have what looks to be about 20 degrees of rise, that right there is probably what is choking the stove out with 3" vent.

dear slvrblkk and others
here is this mornings pix. I shut the unit down about 1.5 hrs ago8:30 and its now about 10:30) as it was suffocating itself out any way. as you requested the pellets basically mound up around the burn pot, volcano style, all the way up and even inside the feed shute. now they are still smoldering and creating noxious soot. the door and interior firebox amply reflect same.
as to the vent setup, the mfr the one time we talked thought it wasn't an issue. my complaint at the time was low btu's and because I routed my 3" vent into a 5" liner, the tech thought with a 3" one I'd wick heat off the firebox more slowly. hence, more btus. after I installed 3" all the way to the top of the chimney....same difference.
last night used a diff pellet which previously had burned hotter than green supreme. same diff again.
reading thru your latest comments and here's what I plan for today:
will not attempt a combustion fan removal without gasket. will clean out the firebox, door, ash pan. will open clean out of vent tee in rear and will brush and vac clean. did this yesterday but only takes another few. will remove the vent from the back of the combustion and tape on my shop vac hose. open the front of the unit and let her suck away for 5-10 minutes and then reassemble and keep my tootsies crossed.
will let you all know the outcome

 

[slvrblkk]

Yeah....the volcano is supposed to be ash and not partially burnt pellets. That is a serious air flow issue. You can double check the combustion fan but the underlying problem is more than likely that vent setup. It's asking a lot out of that fan to pull the air in and to push it out of the stove with that setup. Hopefully Mike from ESW sees this thread and will chime in.

 

[smelm0]

Yeah....the volcano is supposed to be ash and not partially burnt pellets. That is a serious air flow issue. You can double check the combustion fan but the underlying problem is more than likely that vent setup. It's asking a lot out of that fan to pull the air in and to push it out of the stove with that setup. Hopefully Mike from ESW sees this thread and will chime in.

hi slvrblkk and others
as I'm typing I have my shop vac sucking as best it can at the exit of the combustion fan. its 3.5 hp with a new filter so its pulling pretty well. I do see some creosote/sticky, hard and tar like in there to an extent. not sure even with a pick ax, I'd b able to clean it perfectly but giving it a shot. might need a total replacement to really have an effect. I'll leave it running for 15 minutes and then close everything up and expect to c at least a wee bit improvement. as you suggest, maybe the vent could b shortened and inclined further by moving the unit closer to the fireplace opening but I was trying to get the unit as close to the middle alley of my ranch house as possible. no one ever suggested that I'd have an issue with exhaust length. see many installs are totally horizontal but much less than approximately 22' of pipe. mfr even thought when we once spoke that I might b experiencing too much draft as in the exhaust exiting too quickly since I had a 5" flue liner at the time...
if I don't see a major improvement today, have decided to return it before my refund window expires as I'm leaving for fla on 1/1. can pick up the pellet stove fissue in late march. after having a good ol' time with this product, I'm doubtful I'm up for a second go round. will consider other brands...
btw, the burn pot sits very nicely in the cradle. just wanted u to know that I've followed all your suggestions. as to moving the unit closer to the masonry, I'd have to make some furniture changes because of incendiary issues and don't think I'm up to it as of yet.
yes, it would b nice to have a responsive mfr but absent that I'm very pleased and thankful that I've found you guys and this forum.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/e3/e33d2e85-03b6-40ef-adb1-cbe6b1e64e87.pdf page 9 your vent is too long for 3" venting.

You can clean that stove's combustion passages till the cows come home the stove is only going to foul its passages up and pile up the pellets.

Until you correct the venting you are going to have nothing but trouble.

I didn't even look to see if there was a horizontal run limit but I suspect there is and general vent installation instructions do not recommend more than a 15 evl for 3" You appear to have at least 14.5 not counting your elbows and such which could add 10 more giving likely an evl of 22.5 to 24.5. The combustion blower will not be able to handle that on most pellet burning stoves, no where near enough power to push the exhaust out of the system.

 

[smelm0]

well it would have been awfully nice if the folks at esw had mentioned something to me when we once chatted by phone about venting limits over a month ago. if as steve and smokey indicate an overly long vent setup is the culprit, what venting setup do you suggest. think I could connect directly to my ss single wall flex pipe for a more vertical 15' run, though the pipe is uninsulated. also since its an old fireplace insert, they'll always b a wiggle in there till it enters the straight section of 12" chimney. prob 12' of that.
after shop vac clean out. the unit got to over 415 at the firebox in .5 hr. the flame is looking more yellow and strong. after an hr at 425 and no soot yet on the glass but as one pix shows, I still have a bit of smoke exiting the flue though less than before. I know it won't last for long the cleaner burning will degrade. just when is the question now. wonder like ohio burner, how long the deeper cleaning option has to b put in effect in order to keep the unit behaving.

 

[smelm0]

well it would have been awfully nice if the folks at esw had mentioned something to me when we once chatted by phone about venting limits over a month ago. if as steve and smokey indicate an overly long vent setup is the culprit, what venting setup do you suggest. think I could connect directly to my ss single wall flex pipe for a more vertical 15' run, though the pipe is uninsulated. also since its an old fireplace insert, they'll always b a wiggle in there till it enters the straight section of 12" chimney. prob 12' of that.
after shop vac clean out. the unit got to over 415 at the firebox in .5 hr. the flame is looking more yellow and strong. after an hr at 425 and no soot yet on the glass but as one pix shows, I still have a bit of smoke exiting the flue though less than before. I know it won't last for long the cleaner burning will degrade. just when is the question now. wonder like ohio burner, how long the deeper cleaning option has to b put in effect in order to keep the unit behaving.

just checked the exit and after an hr and a half and its burning as it should nice and clean. maybe the last of the guck has burned off. hope so. now still have to c how long the clean burn will last....

 

[slvrblkk]

Whoh....is the SS liner bent to a 90 degree out of the cap of the chimney?

 

[Harvey Schneider]

Whoh....is the SS liner bent to a 90 degree out of the cap of the chimney?

I was wondering if anybody else noticed that. OMG! The stove never had a chance.

 

[smelm0]

I was wondering if anybody else noticed that. OMG! The stove never had a chance.

yes harvey and steve, I bent it a bit(about a 45 or more. looks more from below) to keep rain, etc out. can straighten if you prefer but after 2.5 hrs. unit running nice and clean and bright. just wondering when and if the shoe will fall. you gotta believe...

 

[slvrblkk]

That SS flex should just go straight up the chimney and terminate at the top with a vent cap. Something like this or similar:

(broken image removed)

 

[smelm0]

ok steve will look for a cap which at 3" was not easily found locally. will order online and then straighten out what I have. no problemo. just pissed that the door gasket it seems was defective from the get go and created a declining flame over a very short time. wonder if I can get esw to send me out a new combustion fan but I suspect I can even keep the one I have if I manage a new gasket. just wonder how long I have before self pollution takes over. my stove is cooking. mode 3: 1,4,1 settings remote on on off mode.heat is at 7 and blower 9. just wonder when it will go south again and need remediation. think I should gin up a general how to for this particular unit to help others hurdle stuff along the way.
still would like to know your thoughts about an ideal setup in my case. do you think I can just connect to ss flex pipe? should I shorten the dbl wall 3" pipe. you should know now that the 3" dbl wall is very hot and hot gases look for an exit upwardly if possible. might just clean things out on the way up as it does in a regular wood stove?
just getting a bit of ash film on the door glass now after at least 4 hrs. no untoward deposits and not what I haven't faced before. still no soot and no smoke, thank goodness.

 

[slvrblkk]

As far as I know, unless the stove is set in a fireplace or is an insert, you can't have the single wall pipe exposed by code (I'm not a code master though). I think I'm going to refer to pages 11-14 of the Englander manual for install so probably should follow. Basically, if you can remove the entire horizontal run and get the top of the chimney SS flex terminated properly, you are definitely heading in the right direction.

(broken link removed to http://www.heatredefined.com/assets/images/manuals/2855/25-pah.pdf)

 

[smelm0]

hear you steve. at most, I could shorten my exhaust by 4' if I left the unit where it is and pulled down the flex pipe. so far the unit seems to b operating very aok even with a bunch of turns and 22' feet of exhaust. if I moved the unit closer to the fireplace setup prob still couldn't save more than 4'. still not a huge savings.
6 hrs and creating nothing more than fly ash. so I'm not doing anything at the moment to disturb the setup. house at 73 outside 41 and remote still at 72 with a 1 degree swing in on off mode so waiting on it to start up at 71 or at least 70
think you're right about the code and single wall in an interior location a no go. still feeling like keeping the unit if the co. will advance a combustion fan after I spent on a door gasket and then we'll eval. think like acammer that this unit aint a harman but if functioning well enough is an economical alternative.

 

[smelm0]

englander 25 pah guidelines
yes, the co. makes a dvd and an install booklet but we, consumers, have to have better info:
my experience:
bought the unit 10/19/14 and was unhappy from the get go. thought the btu output was more like 25k and less like 45k as stated in the literature.
found the mfr costumer support very bad. emailed them to circumvent the phone and finally received a call back like at 8 in the pm and really felt sorry for the dude.
discussed my situation which at the time boiled down to too much draft as I exhausted my 3“ dbl wall vent to a single wall 5“ flue pipe inside a 12“ masonry chimney. a run of over 22‘.the co. thought I was allowing the exhaust to wick out too fast. I reduced the chimney flue to 3“ and didn’t really see any diff. ok. I started using temp gauges. my firebox was at 425 and air of the louvers at 150. was hoping all along to get the air exiting the unit at 175 plus. this I thought would keep my ranch, 2k sq ft hacienda warmish. but this never happened.
over time it became apparent through lazy orangy flames that I had a leak some where. I resisted thinking of the door gasket as my unit was but a month old but $12 for a gasket and silicon sealer) solved that issue.
I still didn’t have good combustion which in this unit is based on the play of the combustion fan. it draws fresh air and and pushes combusted air out. mine was fouled due to a defective door gasket.
so here’s where we are. shop vac’d the end of the combustion fan. if I had a gasket prob would have just disconnected and cleaned it. but even so, after 15 minutes of vac, and reassembly my unit is running aok.at mode 3, 1,4.1 and at 7 heat and 9 blower. house 72 outside 34.
what can we deduce from all this blather:
make sure all your gaskets pass the dollar bill test
keep your exhaust runs as short and free of turns as you can
the heart and soul of this unit is the combustion fan. it pulls fresh in and pushes burned air out. make sure the ins and outs are not conflicted.
the flame should always appear bunson like whether high or low.
don’t let the pellets run low as this will stop the unit. should have at least a bag in there and if not you should have the pellets centered over the augur.
this unit will hold almost 3 bags but needs daily cleaning.

have a lot of other thoughts on pellet stoves- my friend has a harman insert which burns pellets like the 4th of july. very impressive and desirable. our unit is more like boy scout hot dogs. slow and steady but not the greatest. again, at 1.5 times the cost.... what .... not even sure the harman doesn’t require on average plus trouble shooting.,
but here we be....
just want to say that home depot has been great about this stove. whatever I wanted to do, they were johnny on the spot to fulfill. that’s why I’ve muddled with it. have until l/19/14 to return it for full refund.
so far think I’m going to keep it. not struggling thru the winter in upstate ny but hunkering in fla.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The manual on page 5 says the unit produces 11k to 25k BTUs output, in what literature was or is the 45k stated?

Was it stated as an output rating, pellet stoves were usually rated like oil eater in input BTUs.

At 4 lbs on high and a average of 8600 + or - 500 BTUs per pound you would get an input rating of 34.4 k BTUs + or - 2k BTUs.

The marketing folks would call that 35k BTUs because they don't handle fractions or margins of error due to pellet composition well.

 

[smelm0]

just a final entry in the thread.
a big thanks to steve, smokey(see thumbnail which came with install manual), ohio burner, acammer, harvey and any others I might have omitted.
below is a thumbnail of what the firebox looks like after burning correctly for the last 24 hrs. just some fly ash. at mode 3: 1,4,1 settings and the remote set to 72 with a 1 degree swing. this unit produced consistent temps of 430 abouts. air exiting unit @ 160. 72 inside and 33 on the outs.
oh, what a proper fitting door gasket and a good cleaning can achieve.

 

[acammer]

just a final entry in the thread.
a big thanks to steve, smokey(see thumbnail which came with install manual), ohio burner, acammer, harvey and any others I might have omitted.
below is a thumbnail of what the firebox looks like after burning correctly for the last 24 hrs. just some fly ash. at mode 3: 1,4,1 settings and the remote set to 72 with a 1 degree swing. this unit produced consistent temps of 430 abouts. air exiting unit @ 160. 72 inside and 33 on the outs.
oh, what a proper fitting door gasket and a good cleaning can achieve.

Glad it's producing heat and running clean at last for you. It sounds like a lot of exhaust to push as I now understand your vent setup, but if it's working, it's working. My PAH is running really well, staying clean, and producing pretty good heat - I'm not sure why this unit gets a bad rap but mine seems great. There is definitely more heat to be gained by running the LBA up to 9 and then adding fuel with the LFF until you hit a rich burn. I'm at a LFF of 5 and LBA of 9, and I see 200-210*F at the grill with a magnetic stick on stove thermometer. While this doesn't show actual air temp as the grill is probably driving the temp up some, I know it's more heat because when I run at the stock LFF 1 LBA 4 I get ~180*F testing the temp at the same spot. Just something to consider as it gets colder and the BTU requirements go up.

That "Actual Output" BTU sticker is wild, I'm not sure who produces that rating but is super bogus. The stove maxes out at around a 4lbs/hr feed rate per the manual - my experience confirms this to be accurate. If you figure 8000BTU/lb in pellets at 78% efficiency you get 8000BTU x 4lb/hr x 78% = 24,960 BTU - exactly what the manufacturer claims in the manual. For 45,000 BTUs out of a pellets you need a feed rate of over 7lbs/hr @ 78% efficient - you need a pretty big burnpot and a ridiculous amount of air to pull that off! Was that rating provided by the manufacturer or the store?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You might also get a better deal with a vent system that wasn't so wild.

That is from burning at more than 4 pounds per hour and may reflect what the controller can do in the way of fuel load delivery.

To get that much output the corresponding input would have to be almost 60k BTUs with an exchanger efficiency of 76% or about 6.5 pounds per hour of pellets.

 

[acammer]

You might also get a better deal with a vent system that wasn't so wild.

That is from burning at more than 4 pounds per hour and may reflect what the controller can do in the way of fuel load delivery.

To get that much output the corresponding input would have to be almost 60k BTUs with an exchanger efficiency of 76% or about 6.5 pounds per hour of pellets.

You need a heck of a lot of BTU/lb in those pellets to only feed at 6.5lbs/hr, about 9,200 BTU/lb. If you find those pellets, let me know where I can buy a few bags!

I agree, there may be more feed available on the controller, but there is no way a PAH could feed enough air to burn 7+lbs/hr. I'm running LFF 5 LBA 9 on my PAH(max heat output settings) and I'm nowhere near the BTU, or the feed rate needed to get that output, and I'm maxed out on air. Even with the LFF trimmed up that high I still get about 10hrs on 40lbs, or 4lbs/hr. I would think the max stated feed rate in the manual would be based on the maximum possible heat and trim settings on the controller. Who knows where they got 45,000 BTU from, but I don't see any way the PAH will ever be throwing that kind of heat.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Yes there pellets that top out at 9200 BTU/lb, you likely are not going to find any of them local to you.

There are even pellets that top out close to what coal would but again you aren't likely to find them local to you and those ones aren't approved for use in our stoves.