englander 25 pah issues

[SmokeyTheBear]

I will attempt to explain the difference in temperature.
Heat exchangers transfer heat. Seems self explanitory. But heat is not measured in degrees. Temperature in degrees = amount of heat x specific heat of the substance / mass of the substance.
So there is a small volume of very hot air moving on one side of the heat exchanger and a larger volume of air moving on the other side of the heat exchanger. Since the air on both sides has basically the same specific heat (the amount of heat needed to raise the temperature by one degree) the output temperature will be

output temperature = input temperature x input volume / output volume

If the combustion blower is moving 80 CFM and the convection blower is moving 200 CFM and the firebox temperature is 450 (made up numbers) The convection temperature would be

450 x 80 cfm / 200 cfm = 180

This would be for a heat exchanger that is 100% efficient. Unfortunately heat exchangers are not and account for most of the stoves inefficiency. So we take the 180 and multiply it by the efficiency rating (typically 76%) and get an output of

180 x 0.76 = 137

So your 150 output sounds reasonable. Reducing the convection setting will increase the air temperature, but will reduce the efficiency and the amount of heat transfered. Heat exchangers work best with the biggest difference in temperature input to output.
That concludes the physics lesson for today. I hope that I have helped you to understand heat transfer better.
Harvey

Then we add the impacts of ash in the works and remember that the air flows on both sides of that exchanger are variable and it isn't just the blower setting in some cases finally ending up with all kinds of things that contribute to readings taken on the same model of stove not being always close.

 

[Harvey Schneider]

dear ohio
it seems when my unit is running more properly I'm showing the same temps on my oven kitchen stove hanging over the louvers as you. sometimes I get it almost to 170 when the firebox is approaching 475 as measured on the left side as you do with a wood stove thermometer. the remote is set to keep the main area around 70 and it does that for what I would say is 15 hrs then with the build up of soot and inefficient burning the temps go down. the firebox running at 300 and the air at maybe 110. btw, I balance a heavy piece of metal on the door to radiate up more heat. that's the silver bar in the photo below the oven thermometer.
where I'm at now: unit on mode 3-settings 1,6,1 ran for about 15hrs before sooty burning is slowing it down.
View attachment 147526
I'm after the oak this morning. will remove the sock over the end hoping as smokey has suggested, leaving it open will allow more fresh air to b drawn into the unit and result in optimum combustion. when the unit is cool enough will try the dollar test too.
as you can see from the above pix this morning after about 15 hrs of continuous burn the glass is most sooted up with a small ashy center pattern like a u. heat production low and combustion low temp as well.
hey ohio:
sounds like you're working yourself to the bone. as to the thickness of gasket material, I'd suggest definitely running a nice bead of silicon sealer to attach it. that way its flexible enough to make up for irregularities and still create a snug fit.

If ash and soot are causing your problem, you might consider switching to softwood pellets. They burn cleaner and produce much less soot. They are not a cure for a rich burn (not enough air/oxygen) but they do keep my stove much cleaner than any hardwood I have burned.
This year I am burning LG Granules in my MVAE and I can go twice as long between cleanings. This stove isn't fussy about fuel or cleanliness so I am able to clean it once every two weeks instead of every week. After two weeks I can still see the fire clearly through the window. With hardwood it was obscured in about four days. YMMV.

 

[smelm0]

thanks harvey for the physics lesson. so what I think I can take away from it is:
at my basically highest temp of 425ish I'm getting 150 air exit temps which is about right. ohio believes that his unit when on full has a firebox heat of 6-700 degrees which would produce hot air in the 180's which is where I would like it to b when I require it.
the only time I remember my unit running hot in the 175 area was with another brand of pellets, that is, natures own. when I complete removing the hose from the oak and do the dollar test, I'll load a bag of it in and eval.
again, thanx to all for advice. I know its not a harman but it should work a whole lot better than this.

 

[slvrblkk]

Can you post a close up pic of the burnpot with all the ash on it?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Oh noes, not that.

 

[smelm0]

Can you post a close up pic of the burnpot with all the ash on it?

sorry already spatula'd away into the ash pan for dumping the mostly smoldering pellets which by description were piled up to the shute. makes me think the poor combustion also is out of synch with the fuel delivery so it over time builds up a mound on the shute side and essentially suffocates itself. will post a pix tomorrow of the burn pot. just hoping that removing the sock from the end of the oak will restore enough air intake to get this girl cooking and the burn pot will b minimally filled with ash, etc.

 

[slvrblkk]

I want to see if air is bypassing the burnpot and escaping between the pot and the cradle. Easy to tell once the ash piles up around the pot.....should look like a "volcano" all the way around the pot with no clean edges. It should not look like the pic here, it should have ash all the way around the lip.

 

[smelm0]

ok slvrblkk. tomorrow I'll post a pix of the burn pot.
as to today. running in mode3: 1,4,1 with blower 9and heat setting7 and remote on on off setting withh a 1 degree swing. here goes:
as to ohio burner and acammer: yes the door gasket failed the dollar test and the unit was bought 10/19/14 which is why I resisted thinking it. must have been defective from the get go( was it made on a fri?) and worsened over a month's use. thought I'd see the light by replacing it. used 5/8 gasket with silicon sealer from lowes($12). when you do ohio, you'll need a very sharp narrow chisel, a scraping razor and, if you have, a dremel with a sanding disk or wire wheel to get the old stuff off and have a clean surface. did mine and the dollar stayed snug but my fire still not hot nor bright enough and still producing soot. funny that the firebox gets to 425 in .5 hr. might reach 450 in another .5 hr but I think that's about it and if left going will only soot itself deteriorating over time.
next, as smokey advised, just removed the sock I had on the end of the oak to try to let in as much air as possible. did notice a yellowish deposit on the sock but still the unit is not running any differently. flame still looks ok in the beginning but when full gets more orangy and lazy. soot then begins to form 1st at the hinge side top left and then seems to work its way around the bottom and then completes a circuitous route encircling edges, closing up towards the center.
later on tonight, a diff pellet will take over, natures own, which ran much hotter than green supreme does.interested to c if something in my setup changes. I will not break down the combustion fan which is a good bet as of now but I don't have a gasket for it and won't chance doing without it. if the co. were more responsive I might but not the way they are.
will c if the other pellet makes a change and eval then
again thanx to this community and their insights and input. without your efforts, I would have given up a long time ago.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Well if your burn problems are what slvrblkk is looking for signs of, all of the good air in the world ain't (sorry Muriel may you rest in peace) going to help with the pile up, which also needs to be eliminated to allow the good air to actually get into the act.

But that is his story to tell.

But while you are waiting ask yourself why is that sock getting yellow?

 

[smelm0]

hey smokey
just thinking.... new door gasket.... removed sock over oak..... cleaned out vent pipe...still have a lazy burn and smoke exiting the flue on roof... what's left but the combustion fan. is it slow? is that what you're pointing to? its the only thing I've not really addressed. if it runs free and full should pull air in and out at the right pace I'm assume. the flame should be optimal and no yellowing of the sock on the oak. if its sluggish due to deposits it won't pull at the structured pace. is that what you want to tell me?

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

hey smokey
just thinking.... new door gasket.... removed sock over oak..... cleaned out vent pipe...still have a lazy burn and smoke exiting the flue on roof... what's left but the combustion fan. is it slow? is that what you're pointing to? its the only thing I've not really addressed. if it runs free and full should pull air in and out at the right pace I'm assume. the flame should be optimal and no yellowing of the sock on the oak. if its sluggish due to deposits it won't pull at the structured pace. is that what you want to tell me?

I'll let slvrblkk tell the story, but he has somewhat given it away in his last post, you should be able to connect the dots.

 

[slvrblkk]

If you've been running your stove all day you should already be able to tell if you have air bypassing the burnpot. You SHOULD have ash buildup all the way around the burnpot without any areas missing ash.

Another thing to check...I know the stove is new BUT......make sure that you can visibly see a gasket between the burnpot cradle and the back wall if the stove AND make sure that the mount bolts are tight.

If these check out ok we'll move to the combustion blower.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You'd be surprised about what's left even after slvrblkk takes a good look at that photo you are going to take for him, there are more things to look at and to clean.

The exhaust blower is one of them but more on the cleaning side because of ash than being slow. Speaking of which do you have some spare gaskets around as you might need a few over the course of a burn season.

ETA: He who is being discussed has shown up

ETA: I'm out of here for now got other stuff to do.

 

[slvrblkk]

Oh yeah, mental note.......must check ashpan seating and gasket too.....

 

[smelm0]

you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that. I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore.
beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.

 

[smelm0]

you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that. I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore.
beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.

you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that. I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore.
beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.

you two seem to have a history but if I have to parse thru what I can glean beyond riddles is:
maybe my burn pot is not seated as well as it should b. a dremel with a sanding disk should address that.
maybe the combustion blower is dirty and needs to b cleaned. as I've said I don't have the replacement gaskets but can purchase them if need bd though I'm partial to this cause, if any.
so where do we start. I guess with the burn pot but have doubts about that. I can order the combustion gaskets but think I'll b off 1/1 to fla and won't really have a chance to complete that chore.
beginning to think return and refund is the best option with my time and strength constraints.

Oh yeah, mental note.......must check ashpan seating and gasket too.....

dear slvrblkk
ash pan tight

 

[slvrblkk]

dear slvrblkk
ash pan tight

It might be tight but it doesn't mean air isn't being sucked in somewhere...just throwing that out there. As the stove is running you can "sort of " test it by opening the ash pan and see what the flame does. It should go very lazy when you open the ash pan and very active when it's closed back up.

 

[smelm0]

It might be tight but it doesn't mean air isn't being sucked in somewhere...just throwing that out there. As the stove is running you can "sort of " test it by opening the ash pan and see what the flame does. It should go very lazy when you open the ash pan and very active when it's closed back up.

450 on the firebox. totally sooted up on the glass. don't feel like cleaning it up now as I'm tired but if I open the door, the flame becomes a hell of lot lazy and then perks up when closed.
on my end, still thinking sooty combustion fan. not sure where you or smokey are?

 

[smelm0]

here the beast b. found a little energy and opened the ash pan a bit and the flame degraded some till I closed it shut. this is the kind of flame I'm experiencing and am not sure what or where but at 425 I think we should b doing a hell of lot better and cleaner. the combustion fan, which I've not cleaned is the last leg, has not been cleaned. I assume that it exhausts and pulls new air into the burn chamber. seems to a knucklehead like me the heart and soul of this dynamic. I'll await your feedback.

 

[slvrblkk]

That glass gasket is very unusual. Is that the way the stove came? Where did you get the stove from?

 

[smelm0]

That glass gasket is very unusual. Is that the way the stove came? Where did you get the stove from?

back when I thought the glass might have been leaking so I used some fiberglass to rim it from the outside to c if that helped.
not 100% about the glass gasket but after a time I don't think its the issue. here's what the flame looks like after 6 hrs of burn. notice the build up of unburned pellets feed side. over time this condition will worsen and more pellets will accumulate creating a sort of pyramid upward to the feed. then it will overfill the area and begin the process of suffocation.
the is the extent of my issue and the stoves poor performance.
hope you can help

 

[smelm0]

back when I thought the glass might have been leaking so I used some fiberglass to rim it from the outside to c if that helped.View attachment 147596
not 100% about the glass gasket but after a time I don't think its the issue. here's what the flame looks like after 6 hrs of burn. notice the build up of unburned pellets feed side. over time this condition will worsen and more pellets will accumulate creating a sort of pyramid upward to the feed. then it will overfill the area and begin the process of suffocation.
the is the extent of my issue and the stoves poor performance.
hope you can help

do you think its the glass gasket at fault?

 

[slvrblkk]

Glass gasket? doubt it but it's always a possibility.

Double check gasket between gradle and back wall.

Burnpot, from what can be seen looks ok. When you can and stove isn't running, see if that pot "teeters" a lot in the cradle y pushing on the corners of the burnpot.

If you completely take the OAK of the back of the stove, does anything improve? Check the OAK tube going into the stove to make sure nothing got jammed or shoved into it.

Just throwing some stuff out there.

 

[smelm0]

ok . stove from depot.
will check tomorrow to c if the burn pot teeters in the cradle or not. can prob clean with dremel if there are deposits on its underside preventing good seating. will also detach the oak and c what that results . think that's about all you want to know. just been thinking on my own that the combustion fan seems to b the heart and soul of this operation and keeping it fully cleaned and at the right speed where it pushes out the vent gases and pulls in fresh air might just b the entire enchilada. what are your thoughts on this dynamic? just want you to remember that renewing a door gasket and opening the oak without a mesh hasn't achieved anything in the way of flame performance. I know you and I are still thinking leak somewhere which is degrading the burn.

 

[smelm0]

ok . stove from depot.
will check tomorrow to c if the burn pot teeters in the cradle or not. can prob clean with dremel if there are deposits on its underside preventing good seating. will also detach the oak and c what that results . think that's about all you want to know. just been thinking on my own that the combustion fan seems to b the heart and soul of this operation and keeping it fully cleaned and at the right speed where it pushes out the vent gases and pulls in fresh air might just b the entire enchilada. what are your thoughts on this dynamic? just want you to remember that renewing a door gasket and opening the oak without a mesh hasn't achieved anything in the way of flame performance. I know you and I are still thinking leak somewhere which is degrading the burn.

just quickly removed the oak and nada. I guess its the pulling which is not there?