Encore Non-Cat Overfires

[cmcramer]

Glad to join your Forum: excellent discussions! My one month old VC Encore non-cat connects via 6" flue collar to 6 feet of single wall stove pipe then 25+ feet of Metalbestos (sp.?) chimney - all straight up, ending slightly above my roof's peak. Never a low-draft problem in 20 years of woodstoves. Encore's surface reaches 500-600 degrees, and it usually holds a very consistent temp. And yes, I hear the 'roar' or 'rumble' as I close the damper on a very hot fire. It gradually goes away....

...BUT, when I re-load a very hot stove that contains 3-4 inches of red hot coals, fill the firebox as full as I can with dry hardwoods, allow that new wood to ignite for 6-8 minutes before closing the damper, keep the primary air set at its lowest, the temp of the burn STILL increases to the point where part of the stove glows red! And I can't turn the thing down any lower - I just wait 20-40 minutes for the red glow to subside. OVER FIRE!

What part glows? I believe it's called the "Outer Back" - it's the part the flue collar bolts into. It's only thin sheet steel, but I assume the cast iron "Inner Back" is glowing, too....I just can't see it. An area about the height of the flue collar, and about one inch wide, on both sides of the flue collar, glows red.

Called my Dealer, who contacted a VC/ CFM Field Rep. Dealer faxed me a letter from CFM's Sr. Tech Advisor, John Davidson. Mr. Davidson says that, yes, 'rear cast assemblies' on some Everburn stoves are glowing red. but, "The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issues." (I'll post the full text of this letter if anyone is interested.)

Yes, Mr. Davidson, but doesn't glowing red constitute a WARRANTY issue? OVERFIRING VOIDS THE WARRANTY! Not to mention...what happens when that part warps after the VC 3-yr cast iron warranty expires?

Meanwhile, 2 questions, please: Is it pretty much accepted by the woodstove industry that glowing red cast iron results in shorter life expectancy of that cast iron? And, would the experienced folks here recommend I install a damper in my flue pipe so I can close it slightly and slow down this overfire condition?

Thank you very much from Way Upstate New York - Lake Effect Snow Country!

 

[BrotherBart]

When my old stove pulled that trick, twice, it ended up in the back yard on blocks smoking ribs.

 

[Roospike]

Sounds like its about time VC addresses these issues.
This statment is kinds in left feild "rear cast assemblies’ on some Everburn stoves are glowing red. but, The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issues.”

I agree with BrotherBarts statement. (Did you say smoking ribs , BUDDY !? )

Also, Welcome to the hearth forum cmcramer.

How long has your new VC forge been doing this cmcramer ? Is that the end of it from VC and your dealer or are they getting back to you with more help and information?

 

[cmcramer]

I've owned the stove one month - red glow has happened throughout that time.

Dealer says that VC Field Rep will contact me - perhaps come see the stove - in 2 or 3 weeks. (...Show Me....)

I'm polishing my "Letter-of-Complaint" to VC/CFM.....and I have a form from New York State Attorney General's Consumer division. This situation - a properly operated woodstove that obviously violates its own warranty parameters - must be a legal issue. I'm keeping my powder dry...

A $1895 BBQ is a little expensive for my taste.

 

[Roospike]

I've owned the stove one month - red glow has happened throughout that time.

Dealer says that VC Field Rep will contact me - perhaps come see the stove - in 2 or 3 weeks. (...Show Me....)

I'm polishing my "Letter-of-Complaint" to VC/CFM.....and I have a form from New York State Attorney General's Consumer division. This situation - a properly operated woodstove that obviously violates its own warranty parameters - must be a legal issue. I'm keeping my powder dry...

A $1895 BBQ is a little expensive for my taste.

Wow , I hear ya there. Its a pickle for sure.
Also you would think with glowing parts of the stove would change the distance to combustibles , what ever the back of the stove is rated for it sure in the hell isn't rated for "glowing red".

Be careful.

 

[Gunner]

Glad to join your Forum: excellent discussions! My one month old VC Encore non-cat connects via 6" flue collar to 6 feet of single wall stove pipe then 25+ feet of Metalbestos (sp.?) chimney - all straight up, ending slightly above my roof's peak. Never a low-draft problem in 20 years of woodstoves. Encore's surface reaches 500-600 degrees, and it usually holds a very consistent temp. And yes, I hear the 'roar' or 'rumble' as I close the damper on a very hot fire. It gradually goes away....

...BUT, when I re-load a very hot stove that contains 3-4 inches of red hot coals, fill the firebox as full as I can with dry hardwoods, allow that new wood to ignite for 6-8 minutes before closing the damper, keep the primary air set at its lowest, the temp of the burn STILL increases to the point where part of the stove glows red! And I can't turn the thing down any lower - I just wait 20-40 minutes for the red glow to subside. OVER FIRE!

What part glows? I believe it's called the "Outer Back" - it's the part the flue collar bolts into. It's only thin sheet steel, but I assume the cast iron "Inner Back" is glowing, too....I just can't see it. An area about the height of the flue collar, and about one inch wide, on both sides of the flue collar, glows red.

Called my Dealer, who contacted a VC/ CFM Field Rep. Dealer faxed me a letter from CFM's Sr. Tech Advisor, John Davidson. Mr. Davidson says that, yes, 'rear cast assemblies' on some Everburn stoves are glowing red. but, "The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issues." (I'll post the full text of this letter if anyone is interested.)

Yes, Mr. Davidson, but doesn't glowing red constitute a WARRANTY issue? OVERFIRING VOIDS THE WARRANTY! Not to mention...what happens when that part warps after the VC 3-yr cast iron warranty expires?

Meanwhile, 2 questions, please: Is it pretty much accepted by the woodstove industry that glowing red cast iron results in shorter life expectancy of that cast iron? And, would the experienced folks here recommend I install a damper in my flue pipe so I can close it slightly and slow down this overfire condition?

Thank you very much from Way Upstate New York - Lake Effect Snow Country!

What are the surface temps when you are reloading ?

What are the surface temps when it is glowing?

 

[Roospike]

Vermont Castings Everburn chart. ( just as long as you stay under orange with your stove ) :grrr:
http://www.marshallarts.co.za/temptable.htm

 

[BrotherBart]

Vermont Castings Everburn chart. ( just as long as you stay under orange with your stove ) :grrr:
http://www.marshallarts.co.za/temptable.htm

And the paint vaporizes at 1223 degrees. Trust me on this. :coolsmirk:

 

[cmcramer]

Surface temp when re-loading = 500-600
Surface Temp when glowing = 600-650

These are approximate, taken with a new $12 thermometer. The surface stove temp is definitely below the 700+ range, that's for sure, when 'blood red' glowing happens.

Now, this condition does not happen every time. It seems that I can avoid it by letting the stove burn down a little longer before refueling, or by adding only half a load of new wood. But I don't want to run my stove like that!

 

[BrotherBart]

Drop a fresh full load of wood into any stove at 500 and all hell is gonna break loose for a while. Do it with me or Spikes 3+ CF fire boxes and you can pick up the chimney cap down the block somewhere.

 

[Roospike]

Yep , with ours your get a hell of a lot of secondary combustion and heat @ 500° with a new load but shouldn't get any glowing parts.

How about rounds , larger splits , hard wood (Oak ) & tighter packed loads. All this will help with longer burn times and controlling fires in the average stove.

Why are you re-loading the stove when its @ 500°-600° ( there are many answers but need to know why you do so. )

 

[BrotherBart]

I used to do it with the old stove sometimes but got tired of re-growing eyebrows.

 

[Roospike]

******************* :cheese: **********************

 

[Harley]

Not to go too far off topic, but hope the discussion on this and other threads answers the question for Elk about the donor stove from VC.

 

[TMonter]

Readily overfiring can also be a sign of wood that is too dry. In discussing stove design with a Quadrafire engineer a few months back at the local stove shop, he told me that wood that is too dry can cause problems just like wood that is too wet.

Makes sense when you think about it.

 

[cmcramer]

Why are you re-loading the stove when its @ 500°-600°

Well, I've been experimenting with different ways to use this new stove, trying to reproduce various real-life situations. Finding out how much heat I can get out of the thing safely is one possible situation. For example, if I need to leave the house to buy a few dozen snow shovels and the stove is running really hot but almost out of wood: it needs to be re-loaded for the long, cold afternoon. How will it perform?

I've also tried different ways to start it; different high air/low air settings; different amounts of time with damper open; trying to use low, slow fires; etc. I'm still learning what this stove does best, and not so best.

So, one way to run the stove is full-out, re-filling it when it still has a bed of 2-3 inches of red-hot coals and surface temp around 500-600. I guess I believe a $2000 stove ought to handle this assignment...but maybe I'm asking too much.

I'll certainly wait longer before I refuel the next few times and watch it closely.

 

[Gunner]

Surface temp when re-loading = 500-600
Surface Temp when glowing = 600-650

These are approximate, taken with a new $12 thermometer. The surface stove temp is definitely below the 700+ range, that's for sure, when 'blood red' glowing happens.

Now, this condition does not happen every time. It seems that I can avoid it by letting the stove burn down a little longer before refueling, or by adding only half a load of new wood. But I don't want to run my stove like that!

I too often do "hot reloads" and sometimes the temp hits 800 or more, and no glowing. I do it cause it's darn cold out and I want to go to bed. Don't intend to stay up and wait for the stove to cool or run a half load and then get up real early to fill again.

 

[Roospike]

Why are you re-loading the stove when its @ 500°-600°

Well, I've been experimenting with different ways to use this new stove, trying to reproduce various real-life situations. Finding out how much heat I can get out of the thing safely is one possible situation. For example, if I need to leave the house to buy a few dozen snow shovels and the stove is running really hot but almost out of wood: it needs to be re-loaded for the long, cold afternoon. How will it perform?

I've also tried different ways to start it; different high air/low air settings; different amounts of time with damper open; trying to use low, slow fires; etc. I'm still learning what this stove does best, and not so best.

So, one way to run the stove is full-out, re-filling it when it still has a bed of 2-3 inches of red-hot coals and surface temp around 500-600. I guess I believe a $2000 stove ought to handle this assignment...but maybe I'm asking too much.

I'll certainly wait longer before I refuel the next few times and watch it closely.

I can understand that and I'll do it too. I was just making sure your weren't loading this way because you couldn't get enough heat for your home in turn being stove too small.

You have a lot of wood burning experience and for $2k i agree a stove should work correct.

 

[elkimmeg]

First of all, we assume you have a good seal at the flue collar/ connector pipe connection?
At 500 degrees and 3 / 4" bed of hot glowing coals after reload it can be dampered down right away. What is happening is the top door is allowing a lot of air exposure to the hot coals while reloading then the damper is left open a few minutes. lot of heat and smoke building up all at once. putting the secondary combustion chamber in over drive.

No you should not be seeing glowing red. I will be talking to VC tomorrow by phone and relay your concerns I can tell you that when I damper down with the Cat encoore even if it let it get to 750 griddle top it starts settleing down and within 10 minutes its back to 600+- and stays there for a long long time.

Another question I have to ask is your ash removal sequence? when reloading do you even out the ash bed and stirr it up? Do you plie the to the rear around the everburn shoe?

 

[cmcramer]

First of all, we assume you have a good seal at the flue collar/ connector pipe connection?

Just a crimped stovepipe jammed into the flu collar. I have read in another thread here the importance of sealing that connection better...so I'm off to the store today. Is furnace cement best?

Another question I have to ask is your ash removal sequence? when reloading do you even out the ash bed and stirr it up? Do you plie the to the rear around the everburn shoe?

Till now, I just add new wood: I don't touch the hot coals/ash bed. But I certainly will if you think it will help. What is your recommended procedure?

Thanks for your interest!

 

[mikeathens]

Hmmmmmmm, CM. alll of this sounds strangely familiar. I am with you that you SHOULD be able to reload when you want to, no matter how many coals are in there. Maybe a problem with the everburn? I NEVER had these issues with my DW catalytic, even under the same conditions. Keep on VC about this. I gave up with my everburn dutchwest and traded it in on a Hearthstone after one full year. I am already happier. I never had any glowing parts, though. I'm sure mine came close. Seal up that flue collar and see if it quells the inferno. I don't have one of these stoves any more, but i'm interested to see if it slows down the meltdown. Hopefully, you'll have better luck than I did getting help from VC tech support...

 

[TMonter]

Why hasn't VC come back on this issue? It seems to me like this is a safety issue as well as a customer service issue and you would think they'd certainly be interested in fixing the problem.

 

[Roospike]

Why hasn't VC come back on this issue? It seems to me like this is a safety issue as well as a customer service issue and they'd certainly be interested in fixing the problem.

I think you hit the key wod there TMonter. There either not interested or dont know how to fix the problem.
With all the issues one would think after contacting VC and the dealers there would of been some kind of fix.

What does it take for a product to become a safty reacall ? Anybody know ?

 

[Highbeam]

I own a Lopi, an old EPA Lopi, I will buy another stove (or three)in my lifetime. At this point, a VC is not in the running. For crying out loud... glowing red is not a safety concern? Is normal? No response from the company? many reputable forum members dumping stoves? No thanks.

 

[cmcramer]

FYI: here is the text of the letter from CFM/VC.

November 3, 2006
Subject: Glowing Rear Components

I am writing this letter in response to reports that parts of the rear cast assemblies on the Resolute Acclaim and some of our Everburn Woodstoves are glowing red. The hot flue gases do hit the sides here while turning to go vertical in the rear lower right and rear lower left of the stoves. On a large load of wood it is normal for these areas to glow while the fire is at its peak (typically one or two hours during a burn cycle) and dull "blood red" glowing may extend upward toward the base of the flue collar. These areas have been reinforced to deal with the excess temperatures that may occur here. The glowing does not constitute any safety or operational issue.

If further questions arise, please contact me.

Sincerely yours,
CFM Corporation
John Davidson
Senior Technical Advisor