Didn't Save As Much Oil As I Thought I Might (Year 1)

[Dieselhead]

I run a tankless for hot water. Same living situation as you guys. Uses nothing for propane its 98% efficient and only runs when we call for hot water. It does take up to 45 seconds to get the warmed water to faucets depending where it is in the house. I'll deal with that anyday instead of having all that stored hot water doing nothing but costing me money 80% of the time.

 

[btuser]

No, I did not run those numbers in advance. We are much warmer, but not sure if it is really worth so much work.

I did the same thing. 5k plus extras and you have to wonder if it would have been cheaper/easier/safer to get a part time job making minimum wage or collecting scrap metal. I process about 1 cord from our property a year and burn 2-3 cord/year. Got a great "wood guy" who tops me off every other year. We keep the house at 60 and if you want it warmer "we" start a fire. At $4/gallon it's a lot more fun to burn wood than it's current price of <$2. First year with the stove I was burning unseasoned red/white oak while the price of oil was $1.50 gallon. That was stupid.

Oil is really the only (fossil fuel) option for us. Local propane pushers are outrageously expensive in my area. I ran numbers for hot water using propane but after factoring peak load and the cost of tank rental/purchasing it didn't add up. I'm very happy with my oil supplier to the point I rarely even check around for pricing anymore. We bought an extra tank so I can load up after the dip in January and late Spring. Saves around $1-200/yr.

If you look into an on-demand hot water maker, then maybe a new control for the boiler, something with pre/post purge and adjustable differential. I bet with some modest changes you could save another 50-100 gallons/year. Just don't do what I did: I attempted to convert our original boiler (tankless coil) to a cold-start with indirect. It ended up leaking all over the place whenever it cooled down.

Your setup is likely not a warm-start boiler, but heating guys are known to be superstitious. I've seen them install the same square peg into different sized round holes "so I know I'll have the parts on my truck!" A lot of shops would rather see the customer burn an extra 100 gallons/year than risk problems like undersizing or sooting up during the shoulder seasons. It takes about 1/2 gallon/day of oil to keep a boiler hot regardless of how much hot water it's making.

 

[davidmsem]

I did the same thing. 5k plus extras and you have to wonder if it would have been cheaper/easier/safer to get a part time job making minimum wage or collecting scrap metal. I process about 1 cord from our property a year and burn 2-3 cord/year. Got a great "wood guy" who tops me off every other year. We keep the house at 60 and if you want it warmer "we" start a fire. At $4/gallon it's a lot more fun to burn wood than it's current price of <$2. First year with the stove I was burning unseasoned red/white oak while the price of oil was $1.50 gallon. That was stupid.

Oil is really the only (fossil fuel) option for us. Local propane pushers are outrageously expensive in my area. I ran numbers for hot water using propane but after factoring peak load and the cost of tank rental/purchasing it didn't add up. I'm very happy with my oil supplier to the point I rarely even check around for pricing anymore. We bought an extra tank so I can load up after the dip in January and late Spring. Saves around $1-200/yr.

If you look into an on-demand hot water maker, then maybe a new control for the boiler, something with pre/post purge and adjustable differential. I bet with some modest changes you could save another 50-100 gallons/year. Just don't do what I did: I attempted to convert our original boiler (tankless coil) to a cold-start with indirect. It ended up leaking all over the place whenever it cooled down.

Your setup is likely not a warm-start boiler, but heating guys are known to be superstitious. I've seen them install the same square peg into different sized round holes "so I know I'll have the parts on my truck!" A lot of shops would rather see the customer burn an extra 100 gallons/year than risk problems like undersizing or sooting up during the shoulder seasons. It takes about 1/2 gallon/day of oil to keep a boiler hot regardless of how much hot water it's making.

Thank you for the great thoughts......the system is twenty years old now.....at least I have good data and different perspectives to approach the issue.

You guys are great and it is great to be part of these conversations.

 

[fire_man]

Go buy a GE Geospring heat pump hot water heater from Lowes. They are practically giving them away after the rebates in CT. I got mine on sale from Lowes for $100 after the rebates. $900 cost -$400 Energize CT rebate - $400 federal rebate.

Do some homework before buying a GE Geosprings. They seem to have reliability problems. I've never seen an Amazon rating so low.

 

[billb3]

Do some homework before buying a GE Geosprings. They seem to have reliability problems. I've never seen an Amazon rating so low.

Not much better at Lowes.
But still it is a promising technology.
Especially in warmer areas.

 

[gyrfalcon]

Family is just my wife and I. Both of us work full time. Thermostats kick back automatically.

I have an in ground 500 gallon propane tank that I could use for hot water as well.....if the furnace goes I may switch to propane.....have not researched that yet.

Ah, there you go. It's the hot water heater. I went through this several years ago, and ultimately decided to put in a good old-fashioned electric hot water heater, and over the course of 12 months, I now pay WAY less for hot water than I did when my super-duper "high efficiency" oil boiler was handling the job.

I don't know whether that "hot water on demand" thing actually saves money for people with central heat, but it sure cost me extra money as a wood-burner.

On the other hand, the cost of heating oil this year has plummeted, so it's much less of an issue than it was the last few years. But the price will go back up fairly soon.

 

[BrotherBart]

Everything I have read about the on demands tells me that the blast of electricity when they are called on more than makes up for the idling cost of a plan old electric water heater. Just two of us here and the cost of the Energy Star hot water heater is squat.

I can't imagine having a boiler fire up just because I load the dishwasher.

 

[Dieselhead]

That's why he should get a propane fired one

 

[moey]

No surprise. Your using a flame thrower to heat water. It like driving a semi across the country.

 

[btuser]

Electric DHW heaters as well as indirects have the advantage of no central flue to contribute to standby losses. An electric hot water heater will hold it's temp much longer than a propane one, so even though propane is cheaper it may not be worth certain additional costs (running gas line, tank rental fee etc.). The real advantage to gas has always been make up time. A gas fired, 40 gallon HW heater averages about 35k btu, which converts to around 8000 watts when you assume 100% efficiency. That's at least 2x your average electric model.

I'm looking at getting a point-of use electric model for my parent's in-law apt, something I can run in series. It's at least 60' from the boiler and they have to run the water for a few minutes just to get hot water in the kitchen. It will probably be a wash $ wise but may be worth it for the convenience. Just have to figure out where to stow the little sucker.

 

[Brian26]

Do some homework before buying a GE Geosprings. They seem to have reliability problems. I've never seen an Amazon rating so low.

2 years and my only issue was bad elements because I never used them and ran it in heat pump only mode. GE sent upgraded replacements for free. Even if mine blew up today I wouldn't care as it already saved me probably 20 times the $100 cost in power savings. 500 watts to run the compressor vs 4500 elements.

Not sure where you got that amazon rating from as I searched Amazon and only 2 reviews came up. The lowes one is almost 5 stars.

 

[beatlefan]

Winter 2013 spent $4500 on propane. That's for a forced air furnace and hot water for 4 people in a 2500 sq.ft. home. Bought a 30-NC and now heat entirely with wood. Now I can go one full year on 300 gallons of propane. This year my fill-up cost $300 to heat water.

 

[davidmsem]

2 years and my only issue was bad elements because I never used them and ran it in heat pump only mode. GE sent upgraded replacements for free. Even if mine blew up today I wouldn't care as it already saved me probably 20 times the $100 cost in power savings. 500 watts to run the compressor vs 4500 elements.

Not sure where you got that amazon rating from as I searched Amazon and only 2 reviews came up. The lowes one is almost 5 stars.

(broken image removed)

My boiler needs to run even in the summer. One year she stopped working in the summer and the five sections were not as tight together when cold and she was slow leaking on the floor. Perhaps I can run the furnace at a lower temperature. All great thoughts .....I'm reading about new boiler and water systems options for the house as the system is twenty.I'll hopefully be ready to make a good decision when the time comes, which is sometime between twenty and thirty years of use from what I read.

 

[billb3]

2 years and my only issue was bad elements because I never used them and ran it in heat pump only mode. GE sent upgraded replacements for free. Even if mine blew up today I wouldn't care as it already saved me probably 20 times the $100 cost in power savings. 500 watts to run the compressor vs 4500 elements.

Not sure where you got that amazon rating from as I searched Amazon and only 2 reviews came up. The lowes one is almost 5 stars.

That water heater price in Ma:


if you don't qualify for the "up to $750 rebate" you may never recoup the initial investment.
and if you look just to the right of the yellow stars there are 202 reviews, of which pretty much parallels the results at Amazon's one glowing 5 star review and one absolutely dismal review which would be zero stars if Amazon's rating system allowed for such.

With Lowes and Home Depot you can't assume the price you are seeing at your zip code/store is the price someone else will see at another zip code

 

[billb3]

My boiler needs to run even in the summer. One year she stopped working in the summer and the five sections were not as tight together when cold and she was slow leaking on the floor. Perhaps I can run the furnace at a lower temperature. All great thoughts .....I'm reading about new boiler and water systems options for the house as the system is twenty.I'll hopefully be ready to make a good decision when the time comes, which is sometime between twenty and thirty years of use from what I read.

If you weren't using a zone to make hot water all Summer you could adjust Aquastat start/stop limits to keep the boiler a little bit less warm.

When I replaced my boiler it was 35 years old, in need of replace/rebuild and I wanted a cold start I could leave off in the Summer along with more efficient plus oil was almost at $4/gal which changed the payback time. compared to what it is right now.

 

[Niko]

I think you need to look into getting a Wood stove vs a insert. Or leave your insert and add a stove somewhere else. I have a 3000 sqaure foot house, 5 bedrooms, its not a true open concept but i do have some large rooms. My stove heated my whole house with some fans helping blow the heat around. Granted my downstairs was usually 80-90 so the heat can be 68-75 upstairs.

I will be adding another king ultra in a year upstairs or so so both stoves will run a low setting which means 30 hrs plus burn times. I know 2 stoves is overkill and more expensive. But pretty much my stove has already paid for itself from last years super cold we had.

Also we lost power a couple of times. In that case a stove will do one hell of a better job then what a insert will do.

 

[Wisneaky]

That water heater price in Ma:
View attachment 163035

if you don't qualify for the "up to $750 rebate" you may never recoup the initial investment.
and if you look just to the right of the yellow stars there are 202 reviews, of which pretty much parallels the results at Amazon's one glowing 5 star review and one absolutely dismal review which would be zero stars if Amazon's rating system allowed for such.

With Lowes and Home Depot you can't assume the price you are seeing at your zip code/store is the price someone else will see at another zip code

How long do those water heaters take to heat a whole tank? My LP water heater will heat the whole 50 gallon tank from cold to 140 degrees in less than 20 minutes.

 

[billb3]

How long do those water heaters take to heat a whole tank? My LP water heater will heat the whole 50 gallon tank from cold to 140 degrees in less than 20 minutes.

I've had NG and standard electric water heaters and the recovery time on NG ( likely the same as LP ) was 2 to 3 times faster.
But the point with a heat pump is to sip electricity to make and maintain 50 gallons of hot water. If a 50 gallon won't work for a family of four or more because you use hot water faster than you can make it you get a 80 gallon. Or adjust your living habits. As fuel costs rise these types of heaters will likely become the norm.
Right now some fuel costs are "artifically " low.

 

[Elle]

I don't know how many gallons of oil I used but I spent about $1500 heating hot water from May-September with oil. That led me to get an instant on water heater and turn it off during the summer. Then I got the wood stove, so no need for oil at all unless it gets like -10 or so.

 

[btuser]

My boiler needs to run even in the summer. One year she stopped working in the summer and the five sections were not as tight together when cold and she was slow leaking on the floor. Perhaps I can run the furnace at a lower temperature. All great thoughts .....I'm reading about new boiler and water systems options for the house as the system is twenty.I'll hopefully be ready to make a good decision when the time comes, which is sometime between twenty and thirty years of use from what I read.

Honestly that sounds like it may indeed be a warm-start boiler. The Boilermate is fast approaching it's lifespan as well. You could maybe save an additional 100-200 gallon/year by upgrading the whole shebang but I don't see how people get lower than that. I'm just not that vigilant.

From personal experience once a boiler settles into a routine it doesn't like learning new tricks 20 years later. Making changes to your DHW supply may necessitate other changes as well. FYI: a 5 section boiler is a very big boiler for residential. Most boilers have historically been sized not with a heat load calculation, but by looking at the rating on the previous boiler and adding 25%. Back in the 1900s during the flue pandemic it was suggested that coal boilers be sized large enough to heat a house during the coldest day of the year with all the windows open. Then came the btu/sqft rule of thumb for your area, which soon butted heads with increasingly efficient windows/doors and insulation. Add to that the erroneous notion of having to simultaneously heat DWH while maintaining 72F indoor temp during -20F and most boilers are 2-3x bigger than necessary, leading to short cycling and increased standby losses. Things are changing, but the old ways die hard.

 

[drz1050]

As was mentioned earlier, you saved a lot more than you think. Have to compare apples to apples... 60 degs on the oil vs 70+ with wood... last winter was also exceptionally cold.

 

[davidmsem]

Honestly that sounds like it may indeed be a warm-start boiler. The Boilermate is fast approaching it's lifespan as well. You could maybe save an additional 100-200 gallon/year by upgrading the whole shebang but I don't see how people get lower than that. I'm just not that vigilant.

From personal experience once a boiler settles into a routine it doesn't like learning new tricks 20 years later. Making changes to your DHW supply may necessitate other changes as well. FYI: a 5 section boiler is a very big boiler for residential. Most boilers have historically been sized not with a heat load calculation, but by looking at the rating on the previous boiler and adding 25%. Back in the 1900s during the flue pandemic it was suggested that coal boilers be sized large enough to heat a house during the coldest day of the year with all the windows open. Then came the btu/sqft rule of thumb for your area, which soon butted heads with increasingly efficient windows/doors and insulation. Add to that the erroneous notion of having to simultaneously heat DWH while maintaining 72F indoor temp during -20F and most boilers are 2-3x bigger than necessary, leading to short cycling and increased standby losses. Things are changing, but the old ways die hard.

Yes, it is a warm start boiler.....my bad if I said otherwise. Not easy to wrestle with big changes like this, but they are in the offing. One heating specialist suggested propane and running it at very low temperature since the two of us don't put large demand on the system, especially now with the insert.

 

[beatlefan]

I don't know a thing about boilers, but be careful if you switch anything to propane. I'd compare propane dealers in Ohio to small time crime bosses. Not sure how it works in your area though.

 

[btuser]

Yes, it is a warm start boiler.....my bad if I said otherwise. Not easy to wrestle with big changes like this, but they are in the offing. One heating specialist suggested propane and running it at very low temperature since the two of us don't put large demand on the system, especially now with the insert.

Any new boiler is going to have an outdoor reset that will modulate to the outdoor temp. One advantage of propane over oil is a yearly service for nozzels/filters is not mandatory. You should have it checked out regardless but there's less maintenance with gas vs oil so you save some of the higher cost/btu with oil. That of course goes away when you start paying for tank rental fees. Most companies won't fill another company's tank, and if you drop below a certain usage they start charging you rent. We had a pool heater when we first moved and never used it. I quickly got a letter telling me I owed $120 if I wanted to keep them. Then they screwed me on the balance when I told them to come get the tanks. Grrrrr. Don't like propane.

Propane will probably be cheaper for a long time regardless what happens with the price of oil.

 

[davidmsem]

Any new boiler is going to have an outdoor reset that will modulate to the outdoor temp. One advantage of propane over oil is a yearly service for nozzels/filters is not mandatory. You should have it checked out regardless but there's less maintenance with gas vs oil so you save some of the higher cost/btu with oil. That of course goes away when you start paying for tank rental fees. Most companies won't fill another company's tank, and if you drop below a certain usage they start charging you rent. We had a pool heater when we first moved and never used it. I quickly got a letter telling me I owed $120 if I wanted to keep them. Then they screwed me on the balance when I told them to come get the tanks. Grrrrr. Don't like propane.

Propane will probably be cheaper for a long time regardless what happens with the price of oil.

Thanks BTUSER, I own an in ground 500 gallon that I put in for the backup generator. Maybe propane for the on demand hot water and a oil furnace that can turn off in the summer (does that dictate a cold start boiler?, one that can go down to room temperature?)