Confused

[stoveguy2esw]

ok, now that the contest is over (again) , has anyone given this gentleman any ideas on what size unit will work best for his application , i havent re-read the whole thread, got disgusted and just scanned) anyway, who has ideas (whether cat or non-cat) which size and type will work best for him. jeez peeps, he asked for help not a chest beating contest! i am now going to go back <sigh> and read this thread up to the point it got outta hand and see if we can get this thing moving in a positive direction


EDITk i have done my reading and dug out the size of bills new home (planned size), a unit rated to heat up to 1800-2K SQ ft would actually work well in both situations, 700 SQ FT is small, but uninsulated, therefore bill will need somthing that will heat at least 2X square footage (possibly) to keep temp in that space, obviously looking for a modern unit which will reward him with long burn times as well as required heat output. now there are several units which will fit that bill as 2K sqft is easily attained with most units with 2.0cf firebox and reburn (be it cat or non) system. personal note to bill , go a bit big rather than small in your zone IMHO, anyway, the deal with cat vs non cat is this in my opinion (being an owner of a 2.4cf cat unit rated at 2200 sq ft cat stoves tend to be a bit more cumbersome to operate , they do require a strong draft, and are usually slow starters compared to older smoke shelf units. non-cats are usually a bit easier to operate, i do think some cat units do give longer burn times, but i do NOT think they are excessively longer, i have personally had 11 hour burns where my catalist was in the active range(above 500# F ) but i have also seen personally our 30-nc series units burn for that long as well. the 30 is a larger firebox 3.5 vs 2.4, but the wood load was pretty much the same as the 30 is loaded only to the top of the bricks where the 24 i have at home can be stuffed to the rafters. if you are experienced with operating a cat unit then you will know how they perform and likely would be happy with one, if not then you may not be. my worry is the statement that you would prefer somthing that gives heat fast, that says non cat to me. anyway, the guys will im sure chime in on the virtues of the units they prefer, to you i would ask , listen to their descriptions, to the guys Please dont get into the chest thumping again, lets do what we do best i hope you find this helpful bill, let me know if i can be of service in the future

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

its saturday, we can thump our chest as much as we like. this is the 4th page of this thread and thats usually when things get alittle off topic LOL.
Now if this thread lasts untill monday.. we will have to get all serious again, but i think there is enough information in these four pages for bill to get a idea of what he wants.

 

[Roospike]

Bless me father for today I have found out I have sinned. 30 years of wood burning over 150 cords burnt which saved me nearly 20,000 gallons of oil. Over 100 house lots cleared 3 miles of roads and today I found out I was doing it wrong, with the wrong equipment, wrong stoves and wrongfully operations. It has been pointed out to me by a two year burner and another novice burner I have done wrong. But luckily, for penance, they are going to set me straight with a few Hail Marys

I taken a deep breath cleared my mind waiting for your instructions

Not sure who your talking about ole' ELKer , it doesn't make sense to me but it is kinda cute at best.

I for one have been burning wood for well over 16 years so i guess it would be funnier if one knew what or who you were talking about.

Sounds like something maybe up ? PM me or give me a call if one needs to talk.

I still stand by my original post before being attacked by the 2 GPH police and the cat vs non cat debate started (again)........

Lot of good choices out there..........

 

[BrotherBart]

I still stand by my original post before being attacked by the 2 GPH police and the cat vs non cat debate started (again)........

Lot of good choices out there..........

No kidding Spike. After hanging around this place for a year I think the question would be "Are there any bad choices?". There are a hell of a lot of good wood stoves out there. Fitting your stove to your heating/installation requirements and ensuring the service level you might need look like the only questions to me.

 

[begreen]

I think poor Bill may be long gone from this babel.

 

[Hogwildz]

Roo I don't know where you get your logic but the worst gph that passes EPA regs is like 7.5
the cat bombustors stoves are designed to channel smoke over the hot coals called horrizontal burning
Even before the smoke makes into the secondary combustion chamber part of it gets burned off passing threw the hot coal bed
The secondary air is channeled around the fire box jacket and that too is superheated A summilar method of introducing air to burn tubes it is pre heated. The pre heated smoke and pre heated air arrives in the secondary combustion chamber where it passes threw a hot cat combustor as it passed threw it burns off the particulates generatiog more heat from smoke combustion. At that point the particulates that are left enter the chimney The Epa Labs then setup filters to remove the particulates and measures what accumulates on the filters.

Just like your stove and all EPA stoves a good vollume of smoke is burned off before secondary combustion in tubes bafflets or burn chambers occures
50 GPH is never being subjected to final burning. Yes initial startup with the danper open more than 7.5 gph exits all stoves,
Older Non EPA stoves used bafflets to slow the smoke path exit. The longer the smoke stayed in a hot stove the more of it was burned

Your math is ok in your percentages But where did you get the 50 gph to begin with.

Getting bck to mike's original question an intrepid cat s or cat Dutch west stove was recomended, because smaller fire box stoves equiped with cat combustors burn longer and produce a longer productive heat range.
It just so happens they burn cleaner. A fire box size of 1.25 cu ft usually will burn up its load in less than 3 or 4 hours Slow down that burning process and extract more BTUs out of secondary burning, increases the productive lenght of the burn. The cat combustor does this best. VC had two identical stoves in this range a non cat Intrepid and a cat intrepid. For years the non cat Intrepid could not compete with its cat brother. VC dropped the non cat Intrepid line. Point being the manufacturer realized the cat model out preformed the non cat stove in the small fire box range. I still say the Intrepid II is the finest area wood stove in its size range That's my final answer and I sticking with it

Not lost is for days the question was asked why some stove models did not burn cleaner. no explanation were rendered but a side tract trying to limit the importance of cleaner burning by arguing the insignificance of a couple grams. But no technological explanation was ever given just a bunch of side stepping. you asked me technical question about cat combustor light off temps I supplied the technical data you expounded floating 304 ss fire boxes but never addressed the primary question. If ETB is soo good then how can 20 year old stoves burn cleaner or Let me re word it stoves tested 20 years ago tested cleaner than EBt stoves of today. So what is the hype about EBT if that technology can not burn cleaner that 20 year old technology.
Many other stoves modern stoves burn cleaner some that are 3x cheaper burn 2x cleaner I'll make it easy for you to answer for over a yera you extoled the superiority of the PE stove and you believed your own a assertions, When someone pointed out these stoves may not have measured up in cleaner burning you had no answer. I mean you are being blowaway by Englander What is England doing that PE should be? Why can't EBT be fine tuned or why hasn't PE done this? Also BlazeKing has done this in a larger firebox. Agin you also forget EBT is only found in the Summit line, that the rest of the manufactures line has not been enhanced. Why is this? nyou know there is nothing wrong with admitting one does not have the answer.
that's why PE engineering should come front center and address the issue just as Englander has and Vc has. I also suspect efforts to produce cleaner burning stoves inhibits draft and makes them more draft sensitive. Thus not as user friendly. Having a .7GPH stove is useless if common people can't learn how to opperate it. I thgink we agree there.
the other problem you have is comming to grips with, the fact all cat stoves out preform your EBT stove. If youattack another one's efforts to build the cleanest stove ever tested By the EPA you better start preparing to explain why yours burns far dirtier You lob a gernade in my direction better expect one will return. btw you Summit insert owners ther is also anothe s insert bigger and badder made by Buck, the 91 so you have more than Blaze king to worry about

I looked on Blaze Kings site, and saw NO Insert that was larger than a Summit. Freestanding yes, Insert....I didn't see it.

 

[elkimmeg]

I bowed out of this post because I carred it too far, objectivity was lost. I was not helping anyone and lost my objective helping others

 

[Bill]

I havn't lost faith and I am taking everyones opinions seriously. I gues I just don't want to make another bad stove purchase, wifes gonna kill me.

I went out looking at VC this weekend and asked a lot of questions.

So what I would really appreciate now is a sincere recomendation on a quality stove that meets my needs. One that will help get the house up to livable temperatures and one that's better than TV to watch.

If I go with a larger box, burned smaller full throttle fires be practical? I am concerned about creosote also.

The little stove I have now has irritated me since I bougt it because the fire box is so small. Extremely hard to load up for overnight burns.

So what stoves that are designed right and would fit my needs?

Thanks
Bill

 

[elkimmeg]

bill lets narrow it down to practicaliyy what do your dealers offer that is in your projected price range be cat or non cat and of the dealers the one you are most confortable with his choices
lets debate actual models you may purchase not ones offered hundreds of miles away

Maybe mis size is a good suggestion mid size 35000 btu to 50,00
One does not have to argue the merits of a corvete to go grocery shopping Or a Hummer either

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

buy one size larger then the brocher tells you... and pick any stove, from any manufacture, that a local dealer sells, and you should be fine.
Cast iron, steel, or soapstone. they all have there advantages. Cat vs non cat, they both have there advantages. more importantly if its sized right you will be happy. You dont want to buy to big and run it cool, you dont want to buy to small and run it hot. You want a stove that is just right.
You pick..
VC
Pacific Energy
Hearthstone
Jotul
Quadrafire
New Englander
Harmon
etc etc etc...

 

[Todd]

If your looking to burn 24/7 I recommend soapstone. Check out Hearthstone or Woodstock. You can go with the larger soaps because they won't blast you out of the room like most large steel or iron stoves.

 

[Roospike]

So you have a 500° steel stove and a 500° soapstone stove ..........the steel stove is a hotter 500° ? I thought 500° was just that ...........500°

Where is the magical "blast you out of the room heat" coming from on steel at the same temp?



If it was true then Soapstone stoves have bad heat transfer and would take a lot more wood to heat ones home.

 

[Roospike]

If one owns a Soapstone stove and has run a steel stove in the past that couldn't control it then thats not a fact , that user error or a cheap stove.

If one burns only soft wood and cant control a stove then I'm sure a Soapstone will make up for user error and or less then good fuel but again that is not fact on one VS another stove.

The only "steel stoves" that i could think of that may blast you out of a room is a pot belly stove or a barrel stove , these are not home stoves one would compare to heat there home to a soapstone stove.

Again USER ERROR could be defined as a home owner buying the wrong size stove for there home ( undersized ) and burning the crap out of it to keep there house warm. a undersized small stove in your living room running at 900° trying to heat the house is user error not a bad stove.

I like soapstone stoves but the lack of control is the one thing i didnt like so i didnt go with one.

MSG , List all the quality steel stoves you have owned in your home and blasted you out of the room .....................

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

i never said steel stoves will blast you out of a room. Im saying that soapstone stoves have a different feel to them.
You have owned two soapstone stoves, and you cant tell the difference in the heatwaves off of stone vs steel? I sure can. I dont have them in my home but i have burned differnt models at work.

 

[Roospike]

Also notice the only people that say anything about blasting you out of your home with heat or harsh heat from a steel stove are Soapstone owners.

I have run many steel stoves and i have never had a problem with a steel stove putting off harsh heat or over heating a room. ( with the exception of a barrel stove a pot belly stove )

Is some one is heating there house and the stove room is getting way too hot and the rest of the house is cold then thats not a stove issue , the same soapstone stove at the same surface temp is going to do the same thing , it user error or the home isn't set up correct to transfer the heat properly.

As a side note , when one say soapstone stove VS ..........whatever stove i automatically figure a quality stove vs a quality stove and not a soapstone stove vs a cheap heating box.

Its been a long winter boys and girls........ :vampire:

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Im not into the soapstone vs steel debate, nor am i saying that any other stove other then soapstone are a junk box. Dont forget that i sell all three main types of stoves. Its common knowledge in this industry that the three types of stoves offer different heating properties. EVERY stove has a place, and a fit, in everyones home. Thats why we ask questions here to qualify peoples needs when they ask opinions on stoves.
If i thought that soapstones stoves were the only way to go, well then soapstone stoves would account for 90% of my sales instead of 28%.
Im a fan of PE, im a fan of quad, lopi, etc.. But the information below is what is tought, sold, and preached in the fireplace industry.

the is a quote from:
(broken link removed to http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/horadiantconv.htm)

"The individual walls that form the firebox of a stove tend to focus the radiant energy at their centers, and the heat radiates straight out from that point. This is one reason cast iron is so often used to make radiant heaters: the raised designs cast into the plates create curved surfaces that diffuse the straight-line radiation, making the stove more comfortable to sit near. Perhaps the ultimate example of radiant stove design is the traditional cast iron pot-belly stove: its round shape and ornate castings provided even heat radiation in every direction, without creating any "hot spots" in the room.

Plate steel stoves tend to generate uncomfortably intense radiation from the center of each firebox wall, because there are no raised areas or rounded shapes in the flat plates to diffuse the focused radiant energy. Fortunately, plate steel stoves lend themselves particularly well to the attachment of convection shells to reduce the intensity of the heat radiating into the room. This is why most convection heaters are made from plate steel. Note that this reduction of radiant transfer doesn't affect the net heat output: the heat is still delivered to the room, in the form of heated air.

Soapstone is an ideal material for a radiant stove. Because soapstone will only warm to about 500 degrees no matter how hot the fire inside is, soapstone stoves create a very gentle radiant heat, and are easier to sit near. It might seem that some of the heat from an 800+ degree fire must be lost if the stone only lets 500 degrees through, but that's not the case: the heat is stored in the stone, which will continue to radiate at comfortable levels for hours after the fire has gone out (long after a cast iron or plate steel stove will have gone cold)."

 

[Todd]

Fact is soapstone pound for pound holds twice the heat or btu's that steel does which means a more even heat. Less peaks and valleys during the burn cycle. Maybe blasting you out of the room was a little strong, but I've burned 6 steel stoves and 2 soapstone stoves over many years, and I can definitely feel the difference between the two.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

Fact is, there is a stove that fits every ones needs. If one was so much superior then another then we would all be burning one type of stove. Every ones needs, tastes are different. And the stoves are different to match what people need/want.

 

[Roospike]

Alright , I'll come half way ( German ya know ) to say there is a different heat from cast, plate steel to Soapstone .....

When comparing "quality" built stoves i think the difference is very minimal of heat transfer from one to the other to the point of a hot pocket in the room.

Yes , "blast you out of the room" was the fuse but i can agree to heat transfer will be a little different. again , if the cast or steel stove is overfired but lack of a quality stove or user error then a soapstone stove will pad the problem only allowing XXX amount of heat transfer to be released into the room. The holding of heat is the plus of soapstone and the control of over fire to heat the room , the down side "to me" is if i want a 800° stove transfering high heat when its minus 20° outside i have that choice with my steel stove , the soapstone limits that choice to the user. Being i heat 24/7 with 100% wood heat i need the full control of heat output from my stove and i like the option to heat my home when it 50° out side to minus 20° and can run the stove surface temp from 300° to 800° + for the needed heat and burn clean the whole time.

As for the "time out" ........ I think a lot of people are thinking of a time out from winter and stoves and i agree. see thread "are you ready for summer" https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/6905/

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

:kiss:

 

[Roospike]

GROUP HUG ! .........................

er..........a..........I mean....... "another round fer my friends"

 

[Bill]

I thank everyone for your time and experience. I guess looking at stoves is as enjoyable as looking at classic cars, you want them all.

Just an update remember that my cabin is very cold when we get there, somewhat drafty, and no basement.

My wife likes me to get it hot fast and enjoys warm rooms.

I have a small stove but it doesn't burn as hot or long as I would like.

We both like Hearthstone looks, I can get the biggest one for 15% off, means it cost less than the smaller units

She likes the Napoleon 1900 in enamel because the salesman told her how fast it gets hot and how much wood it holds

And we looked at a Dutch West with a tiny chip, priced very right.

I realize that oversizeing a stove is not a good idea, but I have my wife involved in this decision, so if she isn't nice and hot than I'll have to listen to the nagging. Her fear is if I get to small of stove that it wont be any better than what I have and why should I get a new one.

So any help in this decision will really help me make the right choice.


Thanks

 

[BrotherBart]

For getting up to temp fastest you aren't going to beat a steel stove. Period. Paragraph.

If I was walking into a cold cabin after a long drive then the last thing I would be thinking about is the warm even heat of a soapstone stove two hours from now. Or how cute the cast stove looks and will be hot in an hour or so. I would be like your wife "Warm this place up! Now!"

Steel. For when it ain't furniture, it's heat.

 

[Hogwildz]

For getting up to temp fastest you aren't going to beat a steel stove. Period. Paragraph.

If I was walking into a cold cabin after a long drive then the last thing I would be thinking about is the warm even heat of a soapstone stove two hours from now. Or how cute the cast stove looks and will be hot in an hour or so. I would be like your wife "Warm this place up! Now!"

Steel. For when it ain't furniture, it's heat.

Agreed, the gentleman said two things that stood right out to me. He wants fast heat & the lil woman wants lots of heat. Sounds like 2 basics to base his options on.
Not to knock the Soapstone, but I don't think it goes in either of these categories. Of course, I could be wrong, lord knows I am enough.
And none of you fools better try and hug me, unless your female, a handshake & beer will do fine
Don't make me go Neanderthal LOL

 

[stoveguy2esw]

Gentlemen, each type has its place (even martys masonary heater) bottom line is simple, price, quality(which is pretty much equal across the board in all our stoves) each unit has good and not as good points, so descripyions are in order. steel stoves heat faster, soapstone holds heat longer and are more forgiving in loading differences and such, we have made that clearcast iron reburn units like VC and SUMMIT are able to give a little of both, great units i agree, essentially in my mind i do not think type of unit will degrade what our friend bill is looking for. i would say that there is no "perfect solution" to what he is looking to do ,as the 2 applications are far apart. i think personally he should look at the future application as the major factor and probably lose a little inthe interum, is there disagreement in this?