CFM Vermont Castings Dutchwest Everburn Non-Cat Owners Discussion and Review Thread!

[BJ64]

About the 'tater chips.

BIL stated they were from the refractory. I am wondering if the chips could be some mineral from the ash that was vaporized then condensed back there to flake off in chips.

We opened up a large water tube type boiler at work for refractory repair. I pointed out some chip like materiel scattered about downwind of the burn chamber that had peeled from the refractory. The explanation was that in our location, the natural gas has some small amount of mineral in it. Since the unit had run 24/7 burning about 700 CFM for two years, the mineral had collected and flaked off over time. I asked why it stuck to the refractory and not the iron piping and the answer was electrical charge. At those temps the mineral has the same electrical charge as the piping does, causing the mineral to pick other areas to stick to while it is repelled from the piping.

We know that wood ash is various mineral. Do you think the chips you observed could be something similar to what I observed in the boiler?

On a side note. The chips were not the reason the refractory was being repaired.

 

[RedRanger]

This thread should be turned to ashes, just like VC`s warranty`s.. Talk about beating a dead horse to death/ :-/

 

[BurningIsLove]

Its certainly possible.... a few pages back in this thread I had suggested the same possibility, that it was collected soot/material that was too large to be sucked through the refractory, collected, and then became large enough to flake & fall off (yes, this thread is a monster, but its a nice reference to only have to look in one thread vs. piecing together dozens of them)

It would be interesting to find a 24x7 owner of this stove (or similar design) willing to take their stove apart and examine this firsthand.

 

[Diabel]

Its certainly possible.... a few pages back in this thread I had suggested the same possibility, that it was collected soot/material that was too large to be sucked through the refractory, collected, and then became large enough to flake & fall off (yes, this thread is a monster, but its a nice reference to only have to look in one thread vs. piecing together dozens of them)

It would be interesting to find a 24x7 owner of this stove (or similar design) willing to take their stove apart and examine this firsthand.

She's way too hot right now :lol:

 

[BJ64]

(yes, this thread is a monster, but its a nice reference to only have to look in one thread vs. piecing together dozens of them)

.

I agree. There is a lot of info good for down draft stove owners in this one thread.

 

[tradergordo]

About the 'tater chips.

BIL stated they were from the refractory. I am wondering if the chips could be some mineral from the ash that was vaporized then condensed back there to flake off in chips.

I don't know, it was just reported here that a VC engineer acknowledged the phenomenon and called it "scaling" (although maybe that doesn't actually clarify anything). But wouldn't you see something similar in ANY other stove? These chips are like cement. Sure seems like refractory material to me, but who knows...

My dealer got back to me, he said "My understanding is that the original warranty is not being honored by the manufacturer on units purchased prior to Jan 1, 2008. If you have a warranty claim on the refractory components you mentioned, we will offer replacement parts to you at reduced cost. We would ask that you return the defective parts for inspection. There have been very few problems with that stove that I am aware of."

 

[BurningIsLove]

Are they requiring you to send in the parts FIRST for examination, then determining if there is

A) a defect for which they'd help ya out on cost of replacing
OR
B) claiming that you overfired and now you're stuck with materials that probably would have been broken from removal, shipping, or inspection

Or are they willing to take your claim at face value, ship you new refractories for which they share part of the cost, and asking that you send in the old refractories?

Devil in the details! My dealer said I had to submit detailed photographs first to be considered, but that's as far as we ever got in the process before they went dark on me.

 

[tradergordo]

I'm not sure how it works - but I think the dealers make a profit on replacement parts, so I assume what he meant is that perhaps they would sell the parts to me at their cost instead of the usual marked up price. But really I don't know. I also assume they want to see the broken part for the benefit of helping their other customers (so they know what to look for) and possiby to report the problem to Vermont Castings which I think is the normal procedure.

 

[CTBurner]

SE CT
Total Posts: 26
Joined 2008-08-03 First I want to thank evertone here, I love this forum.

I have been burning our VC Encore everburn for 2 weeks now, I am glad I took BEGREEN’S advise and moved down to the encore vs the defiant. Anyway We had 5/6 nights here where it got down to 40 degrees and so I tryed to acheive everburn. First night I know I had an insufeicent coal bed so I got the rumble for 5 mins, After watching Gordo’s video . the next night I had a good 2-3 inch coal bed, got the temp up on stovetop tp 650 and engaged everburn. had a nice 5 hour burn. since then I have been getting 6 hour burns, with air shut down. A couple of times I stalled but I asked myself why and it was either not enough coal bed or not enough temp. I am very happy with this VC. I would like to extend my burns to 7 hours and believe I can bt packing in more wood. I am burning well seasoned oak. I was real scared after I bought the stove in july and then found the forum only to read all the bad press. Maybe I just got lucky so far. I am very thankful for this forum, I have learned much and Gordo’s video’s are great, I believe he has a Dutchwest but is similar to Encore/defiant, same principle. I have learned you need coal bed,the right temp, good seasoned hardwood and its easy.

 

[ICY99]

Here is a link to a diagram of everburn from the Dutchwest Japan website:

(broken link removed to http://www.dutchwest.co.jp/stove/shokubai_zu3.html)

 

[bsa0021]

Can someone give me their opinion of my stove (Dutchwest 2478). I took the following pictures from the top after removing the flue collar. I don't think the hole in the middle should be there. My question is what would happen if I contiue to burn with the refractory this way? Is this safe? I am waiting on the dealer to take a look at my stove. I don't run my stove as hot as the video posted on this site but I have burned 24/7 the past two years and about 50% of the time the first year. I sure didn't start burning wood to save money only to spend $400 every 2 years in replacement parts. I would guess at the 5/6 year mark I will have to replace the internal cement pieces as they are showing minor crumbling (not from physical abuse). IMO this stove was very poorly designed.
The first pic is straight down from the top (flue collar removed).
2nd pic is from the top but to the left of center. There are some cracks in this area as well.

 

[Diabel]

bsa,

These are not pretty pictures :bug:

The picture on the right hand side...the rounded edges are likely caused by a vacuum hose. When my stove was ready for its initial cleaning I had the job done by a professional he simply shoved the hose through the damper & slightly rounded these edges too. As for the pic on the left had side oh my Is it possible that the hole was caused by (again) a chimney sweep....shoving the brush too deep?

 

[tradergordo]

Yea, sorry BSA - would be nice to know what caused the damage, but regardless, your stove is in very bad shape. Personally I would want to call VC tech support to see if its still OK to use the stove in that condition, no one here (and probably not your dealer either) can tell you if its safe. Perhaps the only danger would be warping the cast iron that the now missing refrectory material is supposed to be protecting. However if you warp the cast, things could get even worse and more expensive to repair later.

 

[bsa0021]

I had a professional sweep clean the stove after the first year. I watched them clean it and I know they didn't remove the flue collar and they couldn't have run the hose down the sides (they didn't reach in that far. When I cleaned it I only brushed down to the 45 which is 3 ft. above the stove. I removed the flue this year to see how bad it is. I had a large pile of refractory chips and creosote covering the hole. VC should have given some type of directions (in the manual) for cleaning procedure if this was fragile and could potentially be damaged by a professional or owner. My feeling is that they designed a product that requires high cost replacement parts in an unreasonable time frame. Shame on them for their design, shame on me for buying it.

 

[tradergordo]

While I agree that the design leaves lots to be desired, and the fragile materials are inexcusable - in their defense, at least the Dutchwest manual does describe how to clean it and tells you to be careful not to hit the refractory material. They DON'T tell you anything about the accumulation of "chips" or anything about having to remove the shoe which will also have these cement like chips on top of it. Failure to clear away this debris every year would definitely impact the stove's performance. They also don't give you any ideas on how to determine when you need to replace the refractory material (yea, the stuff that was supposedly covered by a lifetime warranty that no longer exists!)

I had a professional sweep clean the stove after the first year. I watched them clean it and I know they didn't remove the flue collar and they couldn't have run the hose down the sides (they didn't reach in that far. When I cleaned it I only brushed down to the 45 which is 3 ft. above the stove. I removed the flue this year to see how bad it is. I had a large pile of refractory chips and creosote covering the hole. VC should have given some type of directions (in the manual) for cleaning procedure if this was fragile and could potentially be damaged by a professional or owner. My feeling is that they designed a product that requires high cost replacement parts in an unreasonable time frame. Shame on them for their design, shame on me for buying it.

 

[bsa0021]

Not in my manual dated 7/04. I have very generic cleaning directions. Taken from manual: "Run brush up and down the liner so that any deposits fall to the bottom of the chimney where they can be removed through the clean out door". No mention of the refractory in the cleaning section. tradergordo: What date is the manual that you are reading? If they changed the manual and did not notify the previous owners, I would think the liability is with VC.

 

[bsa0021]

Of course, none of this really matters (unless your in the market for a new stove) since I know about the warranty woes with this company.
The key here is this information hopefully will prevent someone from making the same mistake that I did (& others) of buying from VC.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Despite the warranty woes, less than perfect design, steep learning curve, etc., I still wouldnt say I regret my decision several years ago to buy my stove. It throws more heat than my house needs, has exceptionally long burn times, looks darn nice, etc. Even catalytic owners of less impugned stoves have to replace their refractories from time to time. People w/ burn tubes have to replace them quite frequently from what I've read....the list goes on.

As for the manuals....nothing in life is free. When I buy a new car, I dont expect the owners manual that comes w/ the vehicle to have all the nuances of maintenance required. One has to expect to buy a Chiltons book, check forums, etc. to get the whole picture. The same is true for an investment like a wood stove. Sure, it would be nice to have it all in one place, but the level of effort to find & download the maintenance manual isnt all that difficult.

 

[bsa0021]

Sorry, I have to disagree. First concerning manuals, whom is going to know better how to service the product than the engineer/manufacturer? Trial and error by the owner is not how to encourage repeat customers If you read owners manuals for cars they are very careful to note what practices are unaceptable. A good example the RX8 does not allow Sythetic oil while many other high performance cars recommend it. Could you imagine if Mazda never mentioned this in their manual?
Second, I have no issue with the manner which my stove heats the house. I have no operational issues only durability/parts cost and poor information on how to clean my stove. If I can use the car analogy again, if I had to spend 1/3 the cost of my car to repair it after three years I would never buy from that manufacturer again. Maybe you don't mind replacing your car's engine after 45K miles but I don't. My stove was $1200 and the everburn is $400. Now if I had proper cleaning techniques in the manual and the everburn cost $100 every 5 years, yes this would be acceptable.

 

[BurningIsLove]

Apologies, I should have been more clear. I was referring to the DW-published manuals on how to service the stove which I thought were very well detailed (links posted on this site in countless threads). Yes, would sure be nice if they included the service manuals with the stove so an owner didnt have to search for them separately. But the ones the manufacturers do publish I thought were a great reference.

As for repair, for me the jury is still out on what the long term cost will be for maintenance. Knowing that refractory material is fragile and needs to be cleaned w/ care is one of those things that ANY modern EPA stove owner should know before attempting a self servicing. To use the car analogy, it's like not cleaning mud off the gelcoat w/ steel wool. You're absolutely right that the default shipped manuals should be more thorough, but again, I found that most stove manufacturer's manuals leave a whole lot to be desired. They just havent caught up w/ what we've come to expect from something like a car manual. The manuals are an owners manual w/o the fine details required for a servicing manual.

 

[bsa0021]

I am not sure what the difference is between the owners manual and the service manual. My manual contains info on putting the stove together, installing and cleaning but the cleaning was not detailed and if "Diabel" is correct after reviewing my pictures, the "professional" sweep should have known my stoves' cleaning procedure. Also, if cleaning was more involved, they should have stated that the service manual should be consulted or dealer should clean the stove etc. just as other manufacturers manuals.
I still believe that if a company is truely concerned about their name/customers, they will take reasonable precaution to ensure that the product they represent satisfies the customer. When you drop the ball in design and properly informing the customer and then increase your prices two/three times on parts, it begins to look like they designed an inferior product to make income off of the failed parts.
Sorry if I seem difficult, but greed and lack of integrity is creating more problems than any of us can handle.

 

[branchburner]

If I can use the car analogy again, if I had to spend 1/3 the cost of my car to repair it after three years I would

... you would be driving a VW! Great performance, when they perform... but I switched to Toyota decades ago. I'd rather drive a VW, but I'd rather own a Toyota.

So if VC is the VW of stoves, who's the Toyota?

 

[bsa0021]

No VC is the YUGO of stoves. Or you could say... on a summer night I can hear my everburn crumbling. See I still have a sense of humor. My brother-in-laws 2 passats have been great.

 

[branchburner]

No VC is the YUGO of stoves. Or you could say... on a summer night I can hear my everburn crumbling. See I still have a sense of humor. My brother-in-laws 2 passats have been great.

I don't think it's just VC's everburn that's crumbling, but it sure doesn't look like they'll be the ones to perfect downdraft technology!
One friend's Passat blew an engine in its first year, another friend's new Camry just died (WHAT ?!?) - but that's all anecdotal. Just take a look at all the little dark circles in Consumer Reports - that's a lotta black eyes!

 

[bsa0021]

Hey, maybe we could get the Consumers Union to test and rate wood stoves. It would be interesting to see what their testing would reveal. I think the red/black circles are informational input from subscribers cars. This would work on stoves as well.