Cars? sedans.

[TMonter]

Boy where do I start with this one: "lots of smart people don't do monthly payments". Lots of smart people would disagree including your accountant if you have a business or the financing is low. With rates the way they are, sometimes it's "smarter" to keep your money in the bank.

I would expect the cost of ownership of a BMW to be three times the cost of a Camry. It's three times the car, the Camry is a boring appliance, the BMW is an exciting machine.

It's all what you want out of a car. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry, and as a "smart" person, I make payments when it's financially beneficial....ask your accountant!

Leasing or purchasing a new car is ALWAYS a losing proposition. If you want to lease a car because you want to change cars every few years fine, but don't pretend it's a financially smart move, it's not.

If you are claiming the car is to be a toy, one should only pay cash for toys.

 

[jharkin]

Actually she makes fun of me for always being logged on here . . . and if she knew what I wrote about her she would just roll her eyes and say something sarcastic about me being blind or needing to get new glasses.

Sounds familiar........

 

[ironspider]

Leasing or purchasing a new car is ALWAYS a losing proposition.

If you claiming the car is to be a toy, one should only pay cash for toys.

A car is a piece of depreciating equipment so of course you are paying to use it whether you finance it, lease it or pay cash. My point is, for every person there is the right way to pay for a car, cash is not always the best way. Everybody has different situations.

Rather than toy, lets say a multi purpose piece of equipment. I call all my tools toys too, even my tractor is a toy, so is my log splitter.

 

[begreen]

Here in the U.S. the best sellers are:

1. Ford F150 of course
2. Chevy Sivlerado
3. Dodge Ram
4. honda accord
5. toyota camry
6. honda civic
7. honda crv
8. nissan altima
9. ford escape
10. for fusion

the list is dominated by jap cars for their affordability, however notice the top three for their utility, NOT affordability. Not everyone, including myself owns a car for affordability. Out of the three cars I own, none will be on this list, none will ever be a jap car unless toyota decides to build another supra (but then again, at that price, you can probably go M3).

Dominated by the most reliable cars, not the cheapest. The Japanese raised the bar high on reliability. And I for one am glad they did.

 

[jharkin]

Dominated by the most reliable cars, not the cheapest. The Japanese raised the bar high on reliability. And I for one am glad they did.

Yep, and its impressive to see the giant improvements the American automakers have made as well. Its great for the industry.

 

[begreen]

Indeed. Our Volt is the first American car (not truck) that we've owned since 1974. And it's made in Detroit. That feels good.

 

[bassJAM]

Dominated by the most reliable cars, not the cheapest. The Japanese raised the bar high on reliability. And I for one am glad they did.

Dominated by stubborn people who think they need a 1/2 ton truck to commute back and forth to work, followed by reliable cars lol.

Yeah, the American OEMs are starting to catch up, not enough that I'm ready to go back yet. I'm curious how the truck market will pan out since Nissan and Toyota finally got serious about 1/2 trucks too. They already own the compact/midsized market so well that the Big Three have pretty much given up and focused on full size. It could be an interesting battle since Ford and GM do NOT want to have their flagship vehicles stood up, and Nissan and Toyota still have some convincing to do that their offerings will stand up to real work.

 

[Retired Guy]

I have driven on a lot of highways populated with folks that view driving as a sport. Somewhat like swimming with sharks.

 

[ironspider]

I have driven on a lot of highways populated with folks that view driving as a sport. Somewhat like swimming with sharks.

That would be me. When there is traffic, I don't see cars, i see cones.

 

[bassJAM]

That would be me. When there is traffic, I don't see cars, i see cones.

Me too. I don't know the exact amount, but I'm either at or really close to 20 speeding tickets. No accidents though (at least in a car, motorcycle is another story but there isn't a "record" so it never happened!).

 

[jharkin]

Wow, around here with a record like that you'd be riding the bus. 3 tickets in a year and you loose your license. Big hit on the insurance even when you get your license back.

 

[bassJAM]

Yeah, I got 3 in a year once and lost my license for 3 months. My insurance has never been cheap either, I think my first ticket came about a month after getting my license and my record hasn't been clean since. Close to 400,000 miles of driving and no accidents, yet I'm a more dangerous statistic than the soccer mom texting her kids in the lane over or the mid life crisis guy in the Bimmer erratically changing lanes and who just cut us both off.

I really dislike cops and insurance companies.

 

[Retired Guy]

More da

Yeah, I got 3 in a year once and lost my license for 3 months. My insurance has never been cheap either, I think my first ticket came about a month after getting my license and my record hasn't been clean since. Close to 400,000 miles of driving and no accidents, yet I'm a more dangerous statistic than the soccer mom texting her kids in the lane over or the mid life crisis guy in the Bimmer erratically changing lanes and who just cut us both off.

I really dislike cops and insurance companies.

20 speeding tickets! More dangerous than the statistics show.

 

[Treacherous]

if you are buying an Infiniti you are buying a Nissan. Same chassis mostly the same parts just nicer wood and leather and more chrome.

Rear wheel drive Nissan & Infiniti (cars) are still made in Japan if that matters. IMO...the European makes are great until the lease is up or the warranty expires.

I've had a lot of fun with my '07 G35X. The VQ35HR is a major improvement over the VQ35DE. I've already seen a few on the forums with over 200K miles.

 

[rwthomas1]

I beg to differ, BMW's and Audi's both have horrible long term quality issues and at the 10 year mark have as many creaks and rattles.

There is a reason the German cars lose value more quickly than their other counterparts.

A high dollar performance car that lasts a few years and is fun to drive, and then promptly becomes a maintenance headache while cool does not inspire confidence in their engineering capabilities in my book.

You are full of it. Period. I've had VW's, BMW's and MB's (no Audi's). All of them purchased used. All of them owned past 200k, with a few to 300k, and not ONE of them had rattles and creaks. In fact, correctly maintained, they drove "as new". Cars, like anything else need proper care, and most people have no idea. The are forums for every brand where anyone can find everything they need to know about any car. The good, the bad and most importantly how to fix or at least educate yourself so you don't get screwed by the repair shop.

 

[rwthomas1]

The "japanese" (since many of them are made in the country they are sold in) cars do better on a regular maintenance schedule as well. It's more than just requiring attention it's the rapid pace at which past a certain age the German cars seem to require excessive maintenance and not to mention the cost of the parts. Something as simple as a coil pack will often cost 2-3x as much on a german car than a japanese car.

(broken link removed)

Notice the top 10 reliable vehicles, you don't see a single German car in there.

I'm all for performance, but if you can't make a car that performs and is reliable, how in the heck do you expect most people to want to own one.

Again, what are you talking about? Go buy a maf sensor for a Toyota and then go buy one for a BMW. You are more likely to be screwed at either dealer, but you will then find out that the euro parts wholesalers, local and online, have better pricing than what you will find for any Japanese brand. I can buy BMW synthetic oil cheaper at the dealer than the local parts store! Try it yourself, its rebottled Castrol synthetic from Europe for a buck less than anywhere else you can buy it. Brakes for my 540 6speed? How about $75 a wheel, rotor and pads? That's an expensive v8 performance sedan.... Not! Sorry, but when the Toyota needs, it costs at least as much and usually more than any German I've owned.

 

[rwthomas1]

Boy where do I start with this one: "lots of smart people don't do monthly payments". Lots of smart people would disagree including your accountant if you have a business or the financing is low. With rates the way they are, sometimes it's "smarter" to keep your money in the bank.

I would expect the cost of ownership of a BMW to be three times the cost of a Camry. It's three times the car, the Camry is a boring appliance, the BMW is an exciting machine.

It's all what you want out of a car. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry, and as a "smart" person, I make payments when it's financially beneficial....ask your accountant!

Funny, my accountant has always said "Never purchase a vehicle just for a write off, if you need it, sure, but the tax break won't justify the purchase". Funny, I hate payments, all extra money is put towards debt. House, cars and business assets owned outright, small loan on boat, but I triple pay on that. Low overhead is the name of the game.

If you maintain the Camry and the 3 series at their respective dealers, then maybe. But if you purchase a CPO 3 series and service at a reputable independent import shop I'm willing to bet the bummer won't cost that much more.

Granted, no one touches my cars but me, so idk about shops or warranties.....

 

[rwthomas1]

I happy with my good old american Silverado ,nobody makes a better one,not british, not japanese. And if there is snow,Yea its a lot of fun to drive. The rest of the year it has 2 ton of wood on the back.

Funny, I've had 6 gm trucks and they have been hands down the most reliable and cheapest to operate vehicles I've ever owned. Granted, I usually buy the base truck without the bells and whistles so there isn't much to go wrong.

 

[rwthomas1]

Dominated by stubborn people who think they need a 1/2 ton truck to commute back and forth to work, followed by reliable cars lol.

Yeah, the American OEMs are starting to catch up, not enough that I'm ready to go back yet. I'm curious how the truck market will pan out since Nissan and Toyota finally got serious about 1/2 trucks too. They already own the compact/midsized market so well that the Big Three have pretty much given up and focused on full size. It could be an interesting battle since Ford and GM do NOT want to have their flagship vehicles stood up, and Nissan and Toyota still have some convincing to do that their offerings will stand up to real work.

I'm one of those people that actually use their truck for work. The big three own the work truck world. Toyota has made some inroads recenctly , I've seen more of them being worked BUT I've also heard a fair share of bitching about problems with them too. The Tundra should be better given how expensive it is. Titan?! That's not a work truck! Never even seen one on a job site or lumberyard..... There are a lot of those really ugly Nissan vans about however.

 

[Dustin92]

I would recommend you take a look at (don't laugh!) a 2000-2005 Chevy Impala. I have a 2003 and love it. Mine has 174,000 miles and plenty left, 200,000 is nothing on a properly maintained Impala. I even saw one with over 300,000. Mine rides and drives like a luxury car, smooth and quiet, good on gas (I have gotten up to 31 mpg!), plenty of power (mine is the base model with the smaller engine), plenty of interior room and a huge trunk. Mine has almost no rust (I live in Michigan), and what rust it has is surface rust that will be taken care of in the spring. I have never owned a more reliable car either, in a year, 11,000 miles, the only repair it needed was a $20 water pump (and that is with 174k miles). If you look at one, have a mechanic check it out, they can have some issues, but so can any vehicle.

 

[ironspider]

Funny, my accountant has always said "Never purchase a vehicle just for a write off, if you need it, sure, but the tax break won't justify the purchase". Funny, I hate payments, all extra money is put towards debt. House, cars and business assets owned outright, small loan on boat, but I triple pay on that. Low overhead is the name of the game.

If you maintain the Camry and the 3 series at their respective dealers, then maybe. But if you purchase a CPO 3 series and service at a reputable independent import shop I'm willing to bet the bummer won't cost that much more.

Granted, no one touches my cars but me, so idk about shops or warranties.....

Of course you never get one simply for the write off, bit if you need it, lease it.

 

[flyingcow]

I would recommend you take a look at (don't laugh!) a 2000-2005 Chevy Impala. I have a 2003 and love it. Mine has 174,000 miles and plenty left, 200,000 is nothing on a properly maintained Impala. I even saw one with over 300,000. Mine rides and drives like a luxury car, smooth and quiet, good on gas (I have gotten up to 31 mpg!), plenty of power (mine is the base model with the smaller engine), plenty of interior room and a huge trunk. Mine has almost no rust (I live in Michigan), and what rust it has is surface rust that will be taken care of in the spring. I have never owned a more reliable car either, in a year, 11,000 miles, the only repair it needed was a $20 water pump (and that is with 174k miles). If you look at one, have a mechanic check it out, they can have some issues, but so can any vehicle.

We did look at the Impala and Malibu. Comfortable cars. She's not written them off, but still leaning towards the Camry or maybe even Corolla. Might have to take another afternoon and look around. We generally keep vehicles 8 to 10 yrs.

 

[jharkin]

Its funny how German car drivers always seem to get so defensive when their reliability or practicality is questioned, and make excuses like they break down so much because people don't know how to change oil (I still don't know how fluid changes are related to the problematic electronics that plague them but oh well).


Look, guys its perfectly OK to admit they not reliable cars and thats not why you like them. Its OK to admit you buy for the performance and style rather than dependability.


I'll freely admit I buy Hondas for the reliability, trouble free driving and low long term cost, not for the driving dynamics.


Maybe its time for this thread to die, we are a thousand miles off the OP and talking in circles.

 

[jebatty]

Hoping to avoid beating a dead horse, but a word on "properly maintained." As said before, all we have owned since 1986 is 4-cyl Camrys. I do all oil/filter changes and tire rotations myself, every 5000 miles, also replace tires as needed. I skip all scheduled warranty service based on experience: nothing ever goes wrong. About every 60-120,000 miles I bring the Camry in for what would be a 60,000 mile scheduled service, cost for that is about $4-500 currently. That's it.

I figure a car should cost no more than $0.10/mile to recoup the purchase price plus the cost of service/repairs, not including oil/filter, tires, wiper blades, things like that. Our 2005 Camry bought used with 22,900 miles and paid $14,500. Serviced otherwise only three times, all at the dealer, with total cost of $1,330. Total cost + service = $15,830. Mileage now just passed the 185,000 mile mark. Total miles we have owned the Camry = 162,100, the Camry now is 9 years old (18,000 miles/year our ownership), and cost/mile now is less than $0.10. And highway mpg for the 2005 is 32-33.

The BMW 3 series, favorably mentioned in numerous posts, is a highly rated car. New 2014 price is $32-45,000; mpg on a par with the 2005 Camry. Take an average new price of $38,000 for the BMW. On my "cost" scale, I would have to drive this car for a minimum of 380,000 miles just to recoup the purchase price, and the cost of required service over this time period is ???, certainly well over the Camry cost of service. At 15,000 miles/year, that's 25 years of driving just to recoup the purchase price. Own and drive a car for 25 years as primary transportation? Not going to happen. I'm not dishing the BMW, but for good and economical transportation, its a money pit. For fun and enjoyment for the first few years of ownership, maybe can't be beat, but at a very high price.

We all make our choices. My preference as to cars, save the money and retire early; there are many things a whole lot more fun to be doing than spending hours in an expensive car. Now, if you have money to burn, go ahead and do it. I never had that luxury.

 

[jharkin]

On my 11 year old Acura, I have never needed to bring it in for dealer service, ever. I do my own 5,000 mile oil changes and rotations, and every 30k I do the transmission fluid and a flush/fill on the radiator (changes half the fluid). I just put in battery #2 out of habit not that it needed it, and also just changed the serpentine belt thinking after 11 years it just has to be tired, not any symptoms. Brakes Ive done myself a couple times.

Other than that over the past 11 years its only had 4 unplanned issues, all I fixed myself. The secondary O2 sensor burned out around 60k (10 min, $100 part), an electric door lock actuator went a few years ago ($40 and an hours work) and the catalytic converter heatshield rusted out from road salt. Most folks would rip that off but Im anal and bolted on a new one. A couple months ago the idle got erratic, turned out to just be a dirty throttle body that my local indie shop cleaned out and didnt charge me.


The 3 series is actually the most reliable car BMW makes, and gets average or slightly above average ratings in JDPower. 5s and 7s do far worse. Most Hondas and Toyotas on the other hand get 5 start ratings. True that during the BMW warranty you get free service, but they only do 15k oil changes, and people who keep them past warranty usually are enthusiasts who follow the mike miller schedule and end up doing their own intermediate oil changes out of pocket every 5k. Mike millers schedule also calls for a full cooling system overhaul including new hoses, water pump and thermostat at 60k. Most Japanese cars Ive owned you just do the pump when the timing belt comes up at 100k, and that's only for convenience, they rarely actaully go bad. then you have the fact that BMWs dont even have oil dipsticks anymore, the newest ones have ZF sealed trannies that cant get a fluid change without dealer tools, and you cant even replace the battery in one without a trip to the dealer to reprogram the ECU! As a home mechanic all these are a big turnoff to me. And we havent talked about the Vanos problems, failure prone coil packs, the HPFP issues, the Z4s that would have the rear subframe crack around the suspension mounts because the sheetmetal was too thin, and on and on.

If you can get a new one in the 30s you are buying a complete stripper with the "leatherette" aka vinyl interior. If I am buying a car in that range I want real leather, the moonroof, the sport package etc. I was pricing them out a couple years ago and the best I could do in a 328i configuration I liked was low/mid 40s. Its easy to get a 328 into the 50s and a 335 oculd push 60k when you pile on options. Its fun to play around with the configurator and I do have to say if I ever did buy one the European delivery option sounds like an absolute blast. But I just cant justify that with my current family situation


Like Ive said before, for a weekender fun car, Id buy a 3. But it would be a natural aspirated straight 6, 6 speed. Probably an E46 330i.