Cars? sedans.

[bassJAM]

Yes I'm going to claim that some 3 series are in the reach of most people. Many people buy a honda accord for over 30k, a toyota camry for over 30k (blows my mind), nissan maxima, vw passat etc. Yet, you can get a bmw 320i for low 30's, just give up some of the stupid crazy options and you have the best handling car for 30 grand.

M3, no that is out of reach for most people. But, If you are leasing you can surely get a 328 xdrive, loaded for a reasonable monthly payment, and NEVER have to worry about maintenance.

If you're getting a 320i in the 30k range, you must REALLY want to be driving a BMW. I'll admit their handling is hard to touch, but to keep the price from approaching the 40's you'll be giving up a lot of options the other cars will offer just for a base, stripped, BMW that handles well (and will never touch the long term reliability). I can't see any scenario where getting a BMW is more practical than a cheaper Japanese car. Personally, if I were looking that level of car I'd take the dated G37, or probably even a TL even though I have a strong opinion that a luxury sports sedan should not be front wheel drive.

 

[ironspider]

If you're getting a 320i in the 30k range, you must REALLY want to be driving a BMW. I'll admit their handling is hard to touch, but to keep the price from approaching the 40's you'll be giving up a lot of options the other cars will offer just for a base, stripped, BMW that handles well (and will never touch the long term reliability). I can't see any scenario where getting a BMW is more practical than a cheaper Japanese car. Personally, if I were looking that level of car I'd take the dated G37, or probably even a TL even though I have a strong opinion that a luxury sports sedan should not be front wheel drive.

You said it yourself, cheaper. There is no question if you buy An Acura you are buying a nicer honda, if you are buying an Infiniti you are buying a Nissan. Same chassis mostly the same parts just nicer wood and leather and more chrome. When you are buying a BMW you are buying a BMW, not a gussied up jap car.

Look I'm not talking practical, practical is buying an accord or Camry and driving it until the wheels fall off. I like to live a little, a car isn't a piece of metal to me, it's also a toy.

 

[Retired Guy]

I beg to differ, BMW's and Audi's both have horrible long term quality issues and at the 10 year mark have as many creaks and rattles.

There is a reason the German cars lose value more quickly than their other counterparts.

A high dollar performance car that lasts a few years and is fun to drive, and then promptly becomes a maintenance headache while cool does not inspire confidence in their engineering capabilities in my book.

Neighbor has a 2 year old Mercedes and when nearly brand new had a fog bulb light fail and needed to replace the entire assembly. if it weren't under warranty the part would have been nearly $300.

 

[jharkin]

Wow, I missed a lot...

I'm still digesting, but I have to say I'm with T and others re: German reliability. Of course the 3 series wins the 10 best over and over... its a phenomenal car to drive (or it was till they ruined it with electric steering). I've always owned Japanse cars, but was seriously looking at finally jumping over to something like a 3 last year. In every other department but reliability (performance ,styling, etc) I just love the German design asthetic...

.... Problem is I just cant get past the reliability problems... If I could afford a 3 as a weekend fun car Id do it, but just not willing to risk it for a daily driver family hauler. Before I got married I lived with two roomates. I had an Acura, roomate #1 an E36 BMW M3, roommate #2 a B5 Audi S4. I drove all 3, while my car was the least fun it also spent the least amount of time in the shop. That Audi had annual water pump jobs just like clockwork. Another friend of mine is an Audi fanatic and has had multiple A6s. But he has admitted to me every single one has stranded him at least once.

A lot of folks mention the free scheduled maintenance or extended warranties to compensate, but I just dont want to deal with the inconvenience of those frequent dealer trips. Read bimmerfest or any other German car forum and look for all the stories of people waiting weeks with a loaner for parts from Germany, or stranded roadside due to failed coils and injectors etc. And discussion about lemon law claims. Granted its the minority with problems who are the most vocal, but if you look at the statistics in JDPower or Truedelta the numbers dont lie..... Germans get hammered.

"Mike Millers maintenance schedule" to the contrary, the problems with German cars aren't from a lack of changing fluids. The issues are often around overstressed and overly complex electronics -particularly injectors, coils, ecu's, window regulators, door locks - and too much plastic in critical spots like the cooling system. No amount of oil changes and radiator flushes will prevent these failures.

I would drive an 80s vintage German car in a heartbeat. I wouldn't want to own a modern one. I'd like to see them get back to building rock solid dependable cars because frankly the Japanese offerings do put me to sleep behind the wheel, even as I go to buy another one. But as long as the majority of their owners lease and dump the car every two years they probably don't have much incentive to improve reliability. The market they are selling to is buying for performance and luxury, not reliability; and they know it.

Porsche knows how to deliver performance with reliability. It seems like Mercedes is slowly coming around. I'd love to see BMW, Adui/VW, etc do so also. Ive often thought that if took a BMW or Audi, swap the ZF slushbox for a Honda manual tranny, replace all the plastic bits with metal and all the Continental/Bosch electronics with Nippondenso.... well you might just have the worlds perfect sedan!

 

[TMonter]

Yes I'm going to claim that some 3 series are in the reach of most people. Many people buy a honda accord for over 30k, a toyota camry for over 30k (blows my mind), nissan maxima, vw passat etc. Yet, you can get a bmw 320i for low 30's, just give up some of the stupid crazy options and you have the best handling car for 30 grand.

M3, no that is out of reach for most people. But, If you are leasing you can surely get a 328 xdrive, loaded for a reasonable monthly payment, and NEVER have to worry about maintenance.

Lots of smart people don't do monthly payments and again we are back to reliability. The 300 series BMW doesn't even make the map on reliability or longevity. It comes in slightly better than average reliability

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/BMW_3-Series/Reliability/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/toyota/camry/cost_of_ownership/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/bmw/3_series/328i_sedan/176/cost_of_ownership/

Look at the cost of ownership. Almost double that of a Camry and double the depreciation hit.

From my perspective, most people are going to be better off with the Camry. As people have pointed out, a car for the most part is an appliance that gets you from point a to b.

 

[firefighterjake]

I like how this thread went. Gets a good snapshot of various ways to look at different cars. I live a very sheltered life. we could afford a $40,000 car pretty easy. But the better half has about 25,000 in mind.I almost got her talked into trying the Audi Quattro out.but I'll be surprised if that happens. We're at a good place because of her common sense pending

Sounds like your wife is a lot like mine . . . I'm the one who usually has to push her into buying something . . . and even then she is reluctant to spend much money on herself.

And just like you . . . we are in a good place financially because of her habits . . . many of which have rubbed off on me.

 

[begreen]

Been buying lipgloss and nail polish lately?

 

[begreen]

Our most recent purchase is a Chevy Volt. It has surprised me how much fun it is to drive. With the low center of gravity due to the battery location, it is a blast. I put better tires on it right away and they make it even sweeter. On the Volt forums there are several beemer drivers that have switched over and say it handles as well. It's giddy feeling l to have a car that sticks like glue to the road and is as silent as a Rolls Phaeton. This car is not for everyone but it fits our driving needs well. The fun factor was unexpected and a delight. In sport mode, when you tell it to get up and go, it goes.

 

[ironspider]

Lots of smart people don't do monthly payments and again we are back to reliability. The 300 series BMW doesn't even make the map on reliability or longevity. It comes in slightly better than average reliability

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/BMW_3-Series/Reliability/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/toyota/camry/cost_of_ownership/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/bmw/3_series/328i_sedan/176/cost_of_ownership/

Look at the cost of ownership. Almost double that of a Camry and double the depreciation hit.

From my perspective, most people are going to be better off with the Camry. As people have pointed out, a car for the most part is an appliance that gets you from point a to b.

Boy where do I start with this one: "lots of smart people don't do monthly payments". Lots of smart people would disagree including your accountant if you have a business or the financing is low. With rates the way they are, sometimes it's "smarter" to keep your money in the bank.

I would expect the cost of ownership of a BMW to be three times the cost of a Camry. It's three times the car, the Camry is a boring appliance, the BMW is an exciting machine.

It's all what you want out of a car. I wouldn't be caught dead in a Camry, and as a "smart" person, I make payments when it's financially beneficial....ask your accountant!

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Our most recent purchase is a Chevy Volt. It has surprised me how much fun it is to drive. .

Great to hear. Iv been following these things since their inception. They are on my Bucket list of things to buy just for fun(using no gas is fun). Im glad to see this car take off and become widely adopted.
Keep us posted on your experience. I visit the gm-volt site almost as much as hearth. Do you still have the Prius? Iv heard a lot of volt buyers are former prius owners.

 

[ironspider]

Lots of smart people don't do monthly payments and again we are back to reliability. The 300 series BMW doesn't even make the map on reliability or longevity. It comes in slightly better than average reliability

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/BMW_3-Series/Reliability/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/toyota/camry/cost_of_ownership/

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/2012/bmw/3_series/328i_sedan/176/cost_of_ownership/

Look at the cost of ownership. Almost double that of a Camry and double the depreciation hit.

From my perspective, most people are going to be better off with the Camry. As people have pointed out, a car for the most part is an appliance that gets you from point a to b.

I also need to address your cost of ownership. According to your source the BMW is 44000 over 5 years where the Camry is 30000, so the cost per year to own a great car over a basic POS Jap car is only 2800 more. Come on, if you wouldn't pay an extra 2800 per year to drive a BMW over a Camry you certainly don't deserve one.

 

[begreen]

Great to hear. Iv been following these things since their inception. They are on my Bucket list of things to buy just for fun(using no gas is fun). Im glad to see this car take off and become widely adopted.
Keep us posted on your experience. I visit the gm-volt site almost as much as hearth. Do you still have the Prius? Iv heard a lot of volt buyers are former prius owners.

Prius is gone. It was a reliable economical car, but very boring and not too comfortable for trips.

 

[begreen]

I also need to address your cost of ownership. According to your source the BMW is 44000 over 5 years where the Camry is 30000, so the cost per year to own a great car over a basic POS Jap car is only 2800 more. Come on, if you wouldn't pay an extra 2800 per year to drive a BMW over a Camry you certainly don't deserve one.

That seems a bit arrogant. We're not talking Yugos here. $2800 per year is not chicken feed, especially when raising a family. A large majority of people are very happy with their Japanese cars. Reliable, economical transportation without surprises has high value too. Not everyone is an enthusiast.

PS: I own a German vehicle too. It is the most over-engineered vehicle I have ever owned. And as all those relays etc. age, it is getting to be the most expensive vehicle I own too.

 

[Hills Hoard]

its interesting reading this thread from an australian perspective...

Here is an insight into what australians are buying....

Top 20 Best-selling Vehicles – 2013

1. Toyota Corolla – 43,498
2. Mazda 3 – 42,082
3. Toyota HiLux – 39,931
4. Hyundai i30 – 30,582
5. Holden Commodore – 27,766
6. Toyota Camry – 24,860
7. Mitsubishi Triton – 24,512
8. Holden Cruze – 24,421
9. Nissan Navara – 24,108
10. Ford Ranger – 21,752
11. Mazda CX-5 – 20,129
12. Ford Focus – 19,180
13. Hyundai ix35 – 19,086
14. Volkswagen Golf – 17,342
15. Holden Colorado – 17,203
16. Toyota RAV4 – 16,983
17. Mazda 2 – 15,167
18. Toyota Prado – 14,568
19. Ford Territory and Honda Civic – 14,261

 

[ironspider]

Here in the U.S. the best sellers are:

1. Ford F150 of course
2. Chevy Sivlerado
3. Dodge Ram
4. honda accord
5. toyota camry
6. honda civic
7. honda crv
8. nissan altima
9. ford escape
10. for fusion

the list is dominated by jap cars for their affordability, however notice the top three for their utility, NOT affordability. Not everyone, including myself owns a car for affordability. Out of the three cars I own, none will be on this list, none will ever be a jap car unless toyota decides to build another supra (but then again, at that price, you can probably go M3).

 

[ironspider]

That seems a bit arrogant. We're not talking Yugos here. $2800 per year is not chicken feed, especially when raising a family. A large majority of people are very happy with their Japanese cars. Reliable, economical transportation without surprises has high value too. Not everyone is an enthusiast.

PS: I own a German vehicle too. It is the most over-engineered vehicle I have ever owned. And as all those relays etc. age, it is getting to be the most expensive vehicle I own too.

Yes it is a bit arrogant and was meant to be. While 2800 isn't chicken feed, in the world of 25-40K cars it's nothing.

I found myself in a Toyota (whoops) Lexus ES 350, a friend asked me to try to sell it, so i'm driving at about 65 and a car pulls out in front of me. Trying to get that sluggish horribly handling car to do an emergency maneuver was taking my life in my own hands, I almost lost her. That doesn't happen in any BMW as they out perform toyota in any emergency situation. Can you put $2800 per year on that? How about your wife not getting stranded late at night with a flat tire? Even if she can change a tire, lets pray a drunk doesn't lose concentration and plow into the back of her. That doesn't happen in a BMW, they come standard with newly improved run-flats, you just don't stop until you get home. Is that worth 2800 per year for a little piece of mind?

The BMW can stop in an emergency situation in 107 feet from 60 mph, the camry takes a snails pace at 119 ft., that's more than a full car (camry) length, that could be deadly. That's a huge difference, is that worth 2800?

Sorry about the arrogance, but I get all worked up about cars.

 

[jharkin]

Ironspider you really need to chill out chill man. You are showing the kinda arrogant attitude a lot of BMW / Merc drivers I meet in the corporate world have that makes me sick. Drop the superiority vibe OK?

Nobody is debating the bimmer is a fun car, but looked at for practical transportation purposes it looses on most accounts ( cost, reliability, etc). And sorry, but unless you run a small business and can write off the lease, leasing is not cheaper than owning long term... Not by a long shot. The car companies are really good at marketing it though to sell unsuspecting folks cars they really can't afford and keep them trapped into being repeat customers every 2 years.

I'm a car guy too, and if it was a weekender car I'd buy a used M3 or a Porsche Boxter or such. But for transportation my family has to trust daily I wouldn't touch one. I've even met BMW mechanics who feel the same way. Heck even Mike Miller himself doesnt reccomend buying a new BMW in his own tech talk column in the Roundel! (I was a CCA member at one point I've seen it first hand)

 

[hockeypuck]

Joke of the day. What's the difference between a cactus and a BMW?

 

[ironspider]

Pricks on the inside

 

[ironspider]

Ironspider you really need to chill out chill man. You are showing the kinda arrogant attitude a lot of BMW / Merc drivers I meet in the corporate world have that makes me sick. Drop the superiority vibe OK?

Nobody is debating the bimmer is a fun car, but looked at for practical transportation purposes it looses on most accounts ( cost, reliability, etc). And sorry, but unless you run a small business and can write off the lease, leasing is not cheaper than owning long term... Not by a long shot. The car companies are really good at marketing it though to sell unsuspecting folks cars they really can't afford and keep them trapped into being repeat customers every 2 years.

I'm a car guy too, and if it was a weekender car I'd buy a used M3 or a Porsche Boxter or such. But for transportation my family has to trust daily I wouldn't touch one. I've even met BMW mechanics who feel the same way. Heck even Mike Miller himself doesnt reccomend buying a new BMW in his own tech talk column in the Roundel! (I was a CCA member at one point I've seen it first hand)

Understood, however I don't look at or drive cars like an appliance, I don't care about the cost of ownership, I want a fun, exhilarating drive that is also safe.

 

[jharkin]

Understood, however I don't look at or drive cars like an appliance, I don't care about the cost of ownership, I want a fun, exhilarating drive that is also safe.

thanks. I do get that, trust me... its just your tone earlier came off as looking down upon anyone who doesn't feel the same... that's what bugged me and others.

Heck Id be driving something European myself if cars where my only hobby, but right now Ive got a woodstove and and an old antique house that are both the homeowner equivalent a tempramental British car to deal with! Not to mention other time consuming tinkering hobbies.... so I'm busy enough I have to pick my battles. For now reliability wins over fun in my garage.

 

[firefighterjake]

Been buying lipgloss and nail polish lately?

I'm not sure if my wife has ever used lip stick or nail polish . . . she is most definitely not a princess as she is not a dress wearing, nails-need-to-be-done, dress-to-the-9s sort of woman . . . but to me she will always be the most beautiful woman in the world. When she laughs her eyes sparkle . . .

 

[flyingcow]

I'm not sure if my wife has ever used lip stick or nail polish . . . she is most definitely not a princess as she is not a dress wearing, nails-need-to-be-done, dress-to-the-9s sort of woman . . . but to me she will always be the most beautiful woman in the world. When she laughs her eyes sparkle . . .

Looks like she has access to hearth.com too??

Just kidding, happy husband.

 

[firefighterjake]

Looks like she has access to hearth.com too??

Just kidding, happy husband.

Actually she makes fun of me for always being logged on here . . . and if she knew what I wrote about her she would just roll her eyes and say something sarcastic about me being blind or needing to get new glasses.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

I happy with my good old american Silverado ,nobody makes a better one,not british, not japanese. And if there is snow,Yea its a lot of fun to drive. The rest of the year it has 2 ton of wood on the back.