Blaze King install puzzle

[Highbeam]

I came back in and tested it again. Now there is a down draft again, not as much as when I opened it up initially, but still pushing back the match flame. So I put the hairdryer in the opening for ten seconds and the match flames were going up again, and were still going up a few minutes after that. I suspect that the flow got reversed when an upstairs sliding door was open for awhile.

I'm hope this amount of negative pressure, if a hairdryer can change it, and the flue pipe is still cold, can be overcome by the BK on slow burn.

I would expect any issue to mostly present itself during a cold start. This would be an issue with any stove hooked to that chimney or none at all. Once even slightly warm, you have shown that the flue flows in the right direction. Out of habit, I squirt some torch heat up the flue of both of my stoves before turning the torch onto the kindling to start a fire.

 

[stoveliker]

I would expect any issue to mostly present itself during a cold start. This would be an issue with any stove hooked to that chimney or none at all. Once even slightly warm, you have shown that the flue flows in the right direction. Out of habit, I squirt some torch heat up the flue of both of my stoves before turning the torch onto the kindling to start a fire.

^^ That. I do the same.

 

[Slate Dale]

^^ That. I do the same.

I unplugged the pipe and tested it again this morning, and the match flame and smoke goes up immediately without any hairdryer prep. I think when the stove is connected to the pipe, and the stove door is shut, there might be no problem even if all the doors and windows were opened upstairs.

 

[Slate Dale]

I'm trying now to get the much shorter BK-manufactured "classic" base for the stove (instead of making my own custom base or setting the stove directly on the floor) and add a short 6" horizontal section of stovepipe, and then it appears everything will meet or exceed the BK manual's specs for installation. There will actually be more than 6" clearance in the rear from the concrete wall and about 28"' of stovepipe vertical rise, and more height from the stove top to the ceiling than the manual calls for, but I have fire-proof insulation mounted against the ceiling over the stove anyway. The dealer who looked at the place in the beginning, and said the stove would fit, and the insert installer both thought I was over-worrying when I said I wanted to mount fireproof insulation on the ceiling overhead just to be extra safe because heat rises.

I also plan to have a professional installer check and install this stove, and sign the warranty papers, as per BK protocol, as was done with the other BK stove (insert) upstairs - and yes, I also talked to the home insurance agent months ago, informed them very clearly about the removal of the old oil boiler and the two wood stoves replacing it. There are so many legal and regulatory requirements, and manufacturer's rules and requirements for everything we do.

 

[Slate Dale]

A question unrelated to the basement stove: Can rockwool or fiberglass insulation be used to fill up the open space around a flexible chimney liner after damper removal, in a conversion for an insert? A metal block-off plate, followed by vermiculite cement poured on top of the plate would make a good fireproof air seal, but are rockwool and fiberglass also safe and effective? Fiberglass can burn and it melts at a lower termperature than rockwool, but I read that rockwool also burns. I'm ready to do one or the other.

 

[stoveliker]

Fiberglass cannot be used. Block off plates and insulation around inserts is commonly done with rockwool to my understanding.

 

[Slate Dale]

A question unrelated to the basement stove: Can rockwool or fiberglass insulation be used to fill up the open space around a flexible chimney liner after damper removal, in a conversion for an insert? A metal block-off plate, followed by vermiculite cement poured on top of the plate would make a good fireproof air seal, but are rockwool and fiberglass also safe and effective? Fiberglass can burn and it melts at a lower termperature than rockwool, but I read that rockwool also burns. I'm ready to do one or the other.

I have everything ready that's needed for the block-off plate and cement option, including a steel plate custom-cut to pattern, and it fits, but I'm thinking the liner will always need to be able to move up and down a little so that I can disconnect the adapter end from the stove and slide out the stove for cleaning and inspection, and sometimes replace the bypass door gasket.

l would need to move the liner up and down frequently as the cement hardens, to make sure it doesn't stick so it remains mobile. But vermiculite cement tends to flake and dust off and will find any crack such as a little space around the liner, to constantly fall down on and around the stove. I could use regular cement that wouldn't flake or dust off, but if the chimney were ever to be converted back to a regular open hearth, regular cement would be hard or impossible to remove. Vermiculite cement feels like styrofoam and is easy to remove.

Or maybe I should just pack it with fiberglass or rockwool, and then add the plate, and no cement, but it won't be as airtight and heat will be lost up the chimney.

 

[Slate Dale]

Fiberglass cannot be used. Block off plates and insulation around inserts is commonly done with rockwool to my understanding.

Yes, I thought fiberglass might not be good. But is it not legal? I pulled out the fiberglass that the installer used, weeks ago, when I checked the job afterwards, because I didn't like how insecure it looked being stretched across that much space with no support. I also bought and put on a liner-to-appliance adapter to connect it to the stove, because the way it was connected it could hardly be removed and the stove could not be pulled out for cleaning or inspection. The professional installer who was in a hurry cut the chimney liner a little too short and then figured out a way to make it reach the stove by using a wrong fitting. So I had to buy and add a little piece of chimney liner and a liner-to-liner connector fitting. I added the extra piece at the top of the liner (which was very heavy and hard for me to pull up alone, kneeling on the chimney) and then let the liner down toward the stove. Now everything fits perfectly and it is very easy to disconnect the appliance adapter and pull out the insert whenever needed. I also spent a lot of time making patterns to create a pattern for the block off plate and had it cut in a shop, 1/4 " steel. Now I need to decide whether to use cement (and which kind of cement) or batt insulation (apparently not fiberglass) above the block-off plate. Almost done, maybe.

 

[stoveliker]

It doesn't matter if it (fiberglass) is legal (it's not) - it's unsafe.

 

[bholler]

I have everything ready that's needed for the block-off plate and cement option, including a steel plate custom-cut to pattern, and it fits, but I'm thinking the liner will always need to be able to move up and down a little so that I can disconnect the adapter end from the stove and slide out the stove for cleaning and inspection, and sometimes replace the bypass door gasket.

l would need to move the liner up and down frequently as the cement hardens, to make sure it doesn't stick so it remains mobile. But vermiculite cement tends to flake and dust off and will find any crack such as a little space around the liner, to constantly fall down on and around the stove. I could use regular cement that wouldn't flake or dust off, but if the chimney were ever to be converted back to a regular open hearth, regular cement would be hard or impossible to remove. Vermiculite cement feels like styrofoam and is easy to remove.

Or maybe I should just pack it with fiberglass or rockwool, and then add the plate, and no cement, but it won't be as airtight and heat will be lost up the chimney.

Just use Rockwool it's much easier. You really won't need to pull the insert though

 

[Slate Dale]

It doesn't matter if it (fiberglass) is legal (it's not) - it's unsafe.

Yes so much for some (I'm sure not all) professional installation service. You pay to see how it shouldn't be done, and learn to correct it yourself afterwards.

 

[stoveliker]

If they used rockwool, it is legal and safe..

 

[Slate Dale]

Just use Rockwool it's much easier. You really won't need to pull the insert though

I would need to pull it out when the bypass door gasket needs to be inspected or replaced, and there may be other reasons. The way the stove was installed it could hardly be disconnected but now with an appliance connector it's easy, so I could sweep into a bag instead of into the stove, although I would usually sweep into the stove.

I don't have any rockwool yet. It costs $50 to $80 at Lowes and I already have bags of vermiculite and Portland cement on hand. Still deciding. Thanks, and happy new year!

 

[bholler]

I would need to pull it out when the bypass door gasket needs to be inspected or replaced, and there may be other reasons. The way the stove was installed it could hardly be disconnected but now with an appliance connector it's easy, so I could sweep into a bag instead of into the stove, although I would usually sweep into the stove.

I don't have any rockwool yet. It costs $50 to $80 at Lowes and I already have bags of vermiculite and Portland cement on hand. Still deciding. Thanks, and happy new year!

You can do the bypass gasket from inside the stove. Do not pour vermiculite cement ontop of the block off plate

 

[broberts]

With the stove going in the basement I assume there is a lot of vertical height of pipe outside.
If outside pipe is double walled stainless it will keep the stack air hot
and with lots of height you should get lots of draft so I would use the pedestal and give it a try.

 

[Slate Dale]

Do not pour vermiculite cement ontop of the block off plate

I've read elsewhere, actually in several places, it is the preferred practice. I need to look for the links. But as I mentioned in an earlier comment, I'm concerned about vermiculite dust flaking off and getting through the crack around the liner where it goes through the plate.

Regular cement or fire-clay based cement would not crumble or flake off but would be difficult to remove if someone ever wanted to convert back to a regular chimney hearth.

I won't fill the entire flue, just enough to secure the plate and make a better air-seal. The flexible liner is already insulated.

But the other flue, with the rigid liner, is completely filled with vermi-cement, topped with regular cement.

Thanks for your ideas and advice.

 

[Solarguy3500]

When i install my insert and block off plate, I plan to use a rope gasket like you would use on a stove door to seal the gap around where the liner comes through the plate.

Would that work for you? It allows movement and with rockwool above the plate, you wouldn't need to fill the area with vermiculite.

 

[bholler]

I've read elsewhere, actually in several places, it is the preferred practice. I need to look for the links. But as I mentioned in an earlier comment, I'm concerned about vermiculite dust flaking off and getting through the crack around the liner where it goes through the plate.

Regular cement or fire-clay based cement would not crumble or flake off but would be difficult to remove if someone ever wanted to convert back to a regular chimney hearth.

I won't fill the entire flue, just enough to secure the plate and make a better air-seal. The flexible liner is already insulated.

But the other flue, with the rigid liner, is completely filled with vermi-cement, topped with regular cement.

Thanks for your ideas and advice.

I have been doing this a long time. Been to many trade shows workshops conventions etc. I can tell you that absolutely is not the preferred method. It's actually the first I have ever heard the idea proposed and I see nothing to be gained by it

 

[Slate Dale]

With the stove going in the basement I assume there is a lot of vertical height of pipe outside.
If outside pipe is double walled stainless it will keep the stack air hot
and with lots of height you should get lots of draft so I would use the pedestal and give it a try.

The stove pipe collar opening on the King 40 seems very tight. The male end of the telescoping vertical section wouldn't go in at all. After a little crimping it could be forced in only half an inch. I was looking to buy a heavy duty hand tool, but today I took it to a place that has a crimping machine, and after three times around on the machine, it looked crimped enough. Brought it home and now it fits perfectly, still a little tight but better than loose, and I was afraid that too much crimping might cause metal fatigue.

 

[bholler]

The stove pipe collar opening on the King 40 seems very tight. The male end of the telescoping vertical section wouldn't go in at all. After a little crimping it could be forced in only half an inch. I was looking to buy a heavy duty hand tool, but today I took it to a place that has a crimping machine, and after three times around on the machine, it looked crimped enough. Brought it home and now it fits perfectly, still a little tight but better than loose, and I was afraid that too much crimping might cause metal fatigue.

You should have gotten an appliance adapter

 

[Slate Dale]

Thanks. When I find the links, some texts and some videos, that I read and looked at, I'll post them here.

I would expect that installers do about 100% batt insulation installations, and that very few use block-off plates or wire mesh or otherwise support the stuffed-in batt insulation. Apparently cement and vermi-cement installations are specialty work or mostly done by "overkill" do-it-yourselfers. One source I read suggested a complete vermiculite fill from bottom to the top of the chimney, regardless of whether a flexible liner is pre-insulated, just to "keep the flexible liner nice and straight inside a wide chimney flue."

 

[Slate Dale]

You should have gotten an appliance adapter

If you mean for the BK 40, I could still add one at the end of the telescoping section. Is there a problem with going into the telescoping directly from the stove?

Or do you mean that the installer should have used an appliance adapter for the Princess insert? In that case, I already got one and changed it myself.

I'm concerned now, is there a problem with using a male end of telescope instead of appliance adapter to connect to the King 40?

 

[bholler]

Thanks. When I find the links, some texts and some videos, that I read and looked at, I'll post them here.

I would expect that installers do about 100% batt insulation installations, and that very few use block-off plates or wire mesh or otherwise support the stuffed-in batt insulation. Apparently cement and vermi-cement installations are specialty work or mostly done by "overkill" do-it-yourselfers. One source I read suggested a complete vermiculite fill from bottom to the top of the chimney, regardless of whether a flexible liner is pre-insulated, just to "keep the flexible liner nice and straight inside a wide chimney flue."

Ok I am just telling you what the industry best practices are. What you are proposing will offer no benefit and cause a massive headache if anything needs changed down the road

 

[bholler]

If you mean for the BK 40, I could still add one at the end of the telescoping section. Is there a problem with going into the telescoping directly from the stove?

Or do you mean that the installer should have used an appliance adapter for the Princess insert? In that case, I already got one and changed it myself.

I'm concerned now, is there a problem with using a male end of telescope instead of appliance adapter to connect to the King 40?

Yes I am talking about the king. There is nothing wrong with using the pipe directly on the stove if it fit. But it didn't and now you have modified ul listed pipe which voids the listing

 

[Slate Dale]

Yes I am talking about the king. There is nothing wrong with using the pipe directly on the stove if it fit. But it didn't and now you have modified ul listed pipe which voids the listing

I was told by the company selling the telescoping pipe that it could be cut to length if a little too long, and that the male end could be crimped a little more if necessary. We also discussed the heavier-duty 3-blade hand crimping tool that they recommend and sell to do that.

This is the only crimping I've needed to do besides a slight crimp for one of the rain cap ends. I was not aware that it was a regulatory issue to crimp the end of a stove pipe about 1/8 inch. The company that sells the pipe also makes custom lengths, and can custom-crimp them, but it would have been a lot more expensive. The machine crimp I got looks beautiful and fits the BK collar perfectly.

Fortunately I haven't needed to cut any pieces of stove pipe shorter than they were when I received them. It must be legal to drill holes to attach stove pipe, liner and fittings where holes are not pre-drilled, but now I 'm thinking there may be strict rules about how many holes (I've been doing four holes evenly spaced around) and at what positions. There are so many details involved in making a stove installation legal! I'm very careful about what screws to use (only the exact size specified in the BK manual) to attach to the BK stove collars. However the installer used screws of a much longer length than BK specified for attaching the insert, so I took them out and replaced them with screws of the BK manual's specified length. And all the screws and rivets I've used are stainless in case that's a requirement.

Thanks for your good information. Thanks for being very thorough and forthright!