Blaze King install puzzle
- Thread starter Slate Dale
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Slate, Have you considered installing this stove in the living space ??
I think you’d be much happier with the results..
Your pipes wont freeze if you are mostly below grade !!
I think you’d be much happier with the results..
Your pipes wont freeze if you are mostly below grade !!
Thanks for your response. I'm not an easy quitter as you can tell,a nd
Regarding "you reminded me of the short ceiling height": There is more than the minimum requirement for the stove and the stainless rigid pipe through the wall is also within code.
Re: "take the stove back to the dealer": That appears not be possible. After it turned out that the dealer stopped installing woodstoves and cannot make a delivery "that far away" (one hour) either ( even though I offered to pay more for delivery) I broke my leg and couldn't drive for months, but recently was able to drive again and picked it up myself. Meanwhile the dealer called to say it "must" go "because nobody buys these stoves" (I assume he meant large BK 40's not all BK models) and said maybe it could be moved to another location (just as far away) and I could pick it up there. Note that I never asked to be refunded for it, nor considered it. But the dealer must have assumed I would be thinking of asking for a refund, and didn't want to be "stuck" with a model that is not an instant seller.
Re: "Perhaps, changing the focus of this thread might be: Which stoves will work with my installation parameters":
I've been considering buying a THIRD Blaze King this year (I bought a new Princess insert for the fireplace upstairs this summer, which was installed by the manual instructions, perfectly) and then I could use this one in another building that lacks (and needs) a woodstove and has a much higher ceiling so the pipe could go straight up. If not a Blaze King Princess I would consider some other slow-burning CAT stove with a large firebox. But from my research, BK is the best. But a Princess would not give quite as much heat and long burn as I wanted in the basement, to heat the house, so I'm back to thinking.
If I had got the base that I asked for: "the least expensive, without the ash pan" that would help me meet the minimum 2 foot vertical rise requirement. I do currently have a little over two feet rise with the unit setting on the floor. With the short base, instead of this high one, a slight floor depression (not just under the stove of course but all around it) would definitely tweak it.
Regarding "thermostat responsiveness to radiant heat off surrounding solid (masonry) structure": I'm not sure what you mean. If I have the necessary clearance, does the masonry surface near the stove also need to be covered with insulation? Or do you mean that the wall would radiate heat back to the unit? How do people use these stoves in basements?
I should add regarding "without a tested base changes all the necessary clearances to combustibles"that it's a wide open area and it's all bare concrete. I suppose that the floor might be a little warmer underneath, being in closer proximity, but the heat would probably drop off away from the stove since the uninsulated concrete-over-earth floor is a "heat sink."
Regarding "you reminded me of the short ceiling height": There is more than the minimum requirement for the stove and the stainless rigid pipe through the wall is also within code.
Re: "take the stove back to the dealer": That appears not be possible. After it turned out that the dealer stopped installing woodstoves and cannot make a delivery "that far away" (one hour) either ( even though I offered to pay more for delivery) I broke my leg and couldn't drive for months, but recently was able to drive again and picked it up myself. Meanwhile the dealer called to say it "must" go "because nobody buys these stoves" (I assume he meant large BK 40's not all BK models) and said maybe it could be moved to another location (just as far away) and I could pick it up there. Note that I never asked to be refunded for it, nor considered it. But the dealer must have assumed I would be thinking of asking for a refund, and didn't want to be "stuck" with a model that is not an instant seller.
Re: "Perhaps, changing the focus of this thread might be: Which stoves will work with my installation parameters":
I've been considering buying a THIRD Blaze King this year (I bought a new Princess insert for the fireplace upstairs this summer, which was installed by the manual instructions, perfectly) and then I could use this one in another building that lacks (and needs) a woodstove and has a much higher ceiling so the pipe could go straight up. If not a Blaze King Princess I would consider some other slow-burning CAT stove with a large firebox. But from my research, BK is the best. But a Princess would not give quite as much heat and long burn as I wanted in the basement, to heat the house, so I'm back to thinking.
If I had got the base that I asked for: "the least expensive, without the ash pan" that would help me meet the minimum 2 foot vertical rise requirement. I do currently have a little over two feet rise with the unit setting on the floor. With the short base, instead of this high one, a slight floor depression (not just under the stove of course but all around it) would definitely tweak it.
Regarding "thermostat responsiveness to radiant heat off surrounding solid (masonry) structure": I'm not sure what you mean. If I have the necessary clearance, does the masonry surface near the stove also need to be covered with insulation? Or do you mean that the wall would radiate heat back to the unit? How do people use these stoves in basements?
Re: "if the basement location is not a negative pressure zone":
There is excellent outside air movement into this basement, thanks to two original basement windows and an overhead door (insulated but still leaky) at one end. Besides, it is an early-1960's house. Newer windows, but far from airtight.
That's not good from a heating standpoint. Did you do the draft test on the flue?
BKVP
Minister of Fire
Or do you mean that the wall would radiate heat back to the unit? Yes, precisely. If the back of the unit is less than 6" from the brick or solid wall behind it, it can mess with the thermostat.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
Let me address the elephant in the room here. If you install a heater in your home other than as tested and directed in the manual, and you have an insurance claim for any reason, you are going to lose. It's a simple, "sorry, claim not covered, because you did not have it installed as directed in the manual". We hear it all the time......
The issue here is that the situation is not covered in the manual. If going by the manual's illustrations, changing to 45s instead of up to a 90 and then out is not covered either. No manual can cover every install variation and most just cover the typical situation.
A common example is that most manuals tell the owner not to overfire the stove with absolutely no guidance on what that means and no definition of how to measure.
It needs to heat the basement as well as the upstairs and heat rises. There is already a Princess insert upstairs, but heat doesn't travel very far sideways without fans to move it down the hall and into rooms. The insert also requires electric for good output, not great in a power outage. The BK 40 appears to be the best choice for the main heat source, and no electricity needed. I had considered building a VERY long-burning "Russian" thermal-mass masonry stove in this location, but that would be overkill for all but the coldest weather because it takes days to cool down after fire is out. I considered outdoor boilers, secondary-air wood stoves, coal stoves (we have anthracite in this area) and everything else. Just down to figuring out the installation for best performance, and of course to meet code, insurance and BK's UL-listing requirements....
Is anybody going to get all excited about the "fact" that this is an attached garage?
BKVP
Minister of Fire
Venting is not part of the clearances safety test established at the time the unit was tested.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
If a manual shows only a 90 degree turn above the minimum 2 foot vertical rise, would a 45 turn followed by a short 45-angled stretch followed by another 45 turn inside the wall (where it goes up into the flue) void the UL listing and cancel an insurance claim? I had planned to minimize turning as much as possible and would have no horizontal at all, only at least the required minimum two-foot vertical, followed by a 45 turn and a short (less than three foot) 45-angled stretch to a second 45 turn, and then up the flue. The new, rigid stainless lined, vermiculite-insulated chimney more than meets code and is of sufficient height as per the BK installation requirements. The stove also has the required clearance to the ceiling above, and the height of the pipe protruding through the wall is within code.
So it looks like I need to get it off the floor, and on the right BK base, the short one, instead of this tall one. I'll need the right base.
It's a residential house basement of course, not a garage. Yes it's obvious why wood stoves and automobiles shouldn't be together.
You know, you've heard in writing from the owner of the company to not install their stove. That is end of story. Plus, it sounds like you have no dealer support now. Since you purchased the stove the price has gone up a lot. Sell it while the market is strong. You may even be able to make a profit. Also, the advantage of the King is low and slow-burning. It sounds like you are going to need the opposite, that is high output heat in order to overcome the losses due to the uninsulated basement and air leakage. At that point there is greater advantage to installing a stove with much higher output potential. This is one of the reasons why we don't have a BK stove. There are other very good stoves to use as an alternative. Take a look at the big Regency F5200 as an alternative. It provides a lot more top-end heat.
I'd like to hear about any stoves that are better than BK, but realize it's not necessary to sell this stove (I'm the worst salesman, giving everything away) because this BK could be moved to the other, smaller building that also needs a stove, where a pipe could go straight up through a hole cut in the roof, and there is over 8 foot ceiling height so I could easily use this tall pedestal.
I've done more measuring since I talked to someone, actually not just one, but two technical people, at BK the other day. Based on my conversations then, and even at the beginning of this thread yesterday, I suppose it did sound impossible. But now I think it can be done by: (1) turning the wall-connecting 45 angle sideways, instead of down at the wall, which would produce a very short 6 inch horizontal, followed by a 90 degree instead of a 45 down into the vertical stovepipe, which would (2) move the thermostatic control box in the rear from 4 inches to 10 inches from the wall, which is 4 inches more than the required minimum, and it would also (3) barely meet the 2 foot minimum vertical stovepipe rise requirement, but only IF I have the shorter BK base, instead of this high one that I got.
I don't think I have no dealer support now. I do trust them and try to put myself in their business shoes and see how hard it is for dealers to find and keep professional installers, and provide or arrange secondary shipping to a customer, and know all the answers to technical questions, or even have time to find the answers, when they are selling high volume of all kinds of heating appliances of all different brands.
But now I discovered this forum where I can be in touch with people who have experience with everything, and have good answers. Thanks to all of you for responding and I learned a lot, especially for being tipped off that I have the wrong base, which was the most obvious but never dawned on me.
Everything works out for the best in the long run, and I'll keep you posted when it does. And yes, I've given up on the idea of using it without a base, or with a non-BK base. Aside from pure curiosity, I don't need to know anymore how it might perform without a base, which was my main thrust in starting this thread.
kennyp2339
Minister of Fire
Give it a shot, if it doesnt work then you know and sell the stove for something else.
FYI the 90 elbow will make things inherently worse as far as draft, smoke roll out when the door it open and stove gasses saturating the already dense door gasket and sending odors inside the house.
FYI the 90 elbow will make things inherently worse as far as draft, smoke roll out when the door it open and stove gasses saturating the already dense door gasket and sending odors inside the house.
Uh Oh. I just did some testing for negative pressure with some matches as you had suggested earlier, and there seems to be a consistent downdraft, blowing the match flames downward. When I was on the roof looking down the flue, there seemed to be warm air from the basement rising through the flue, so I assumed there was some positive pressure, but definitely not as much as the strong flow of warm air that always comes up the flue from the hearth on the second floor when I leave it open.
Since I had the end of the pipe protuding from the wall plugged for a long time and the pipe was quite cold, I thought maybe if I give it more time now that it's open it might warm a little, and maybe the air flow would reverse. So I waited and I tested with a few more matches and the result is the same. So I have negative pressure, and any stove I put here would need to fight that. Now what?
I had assumed since the basement was a lot warmer than outdoors that the air had to go up to the flue, especially since there are air leaks from outdoors around the door into the basement there had to be enough incoming cold air pressure to make the relatively warmer basement air rise up the flue . But it appears now that the chimney that is over 20 feet long and rises above the highest part of the roof, is being used like a straw to suck cold air down into the basement. All windows and doors are closed upstairs and the flue to the hearth upstairs is also closed. This is another problem I did not expect.
Could be local geography; hills, trees, other things (tho protruding beyond the ridge is good).
May also be easily reversed using a propane torch.
Finally, if you have a lot of air leaks upstairs (and including the attic), your house will act like a chimney, and suck in air thru what it can on lower levels.
Also, was there a bathroom fan, dryer, or range exhaust on?
May also be easily reversed using a propane torch.
Finally, if you have a lot of air leaks upstairs (and including the attic), your house will act like a chimney, and suck in air thru what it can on lower levels.
Also, was there a bathroom fan, dryer, or range exhaust on?
There is no best stove and BK certainly is not the best for every situation. There are many stoves that are better depending on the install situation and the user's preferences.
That was my initial concern, I'm glad you tested. It's not uncommon for basement installs. I didn't want to see you getting into a draft reversal situation with the lower output temps of a pure cat stove. Next, take a hair dryer or propane torch and try warming up the flue for 5 minutes and test again. If that works then a stove, then a stove that runs hotter and in which it is easy to do this may be the best solution.
I agree; the best stove is the one that works with the circumstances, does so safely, and provides heat in the way that satisfies the owner.
There is better and worse in built-quality, but there are many brands that are good there.
Also, I am a basement heater (getting heat to my main floor from the stove in the basement), and I think that having that "reservoir" of heat there (air and -in my case finished- construction) helps even out the heat input on the floors above. As such, having a stove with the very even output that the BK is may not be necessary; the basement functions to make the heat input smooth.
Given the poor insulation, and the less frequent observation of the stove, I would look for a big firebox.
There is better and worse in built-quality, but there are many brands that are good there.
Also, I am a basement heater (getting heat to my main floor from the stove in the basement), and I think that having that "reservoir" of heat there (air and -in my case finished- construction) helps even out the heat input on the floors above. As such, having a stove with the very even output that the BK is may not be necessary; the basement functions to make the heat input smooth.
Given the poor insulation, and the less frequent observation of the stove, I would look for a big firebox.
I waited some more and no change, so I tried the hair dryer up the pipe and the flow reversed almost instantly. Match flames going up instead of down. I'm going to wait again for a few minutes and see if it reverses again. Thanks for the hair dryer tip.
I came back in and tested it again. Now there is a down draft again, not as much as when I opened it up initially, but still pushing back the match flame. So I put the hairdryer in the opening for ten seconds and the match flames were going up again, and were still going up a few minutes after that. I suspect that the flow got reversed when an upstairs sliding door was open for awhile.
I'm hope this amount of negative pressure, if a hairdryer can change it, and the flue pipe is still cold, can be overcome by the BK on slow burn.
I'm hope this amount of negative pressure, if a hairdryer can change it, and the flue pipe is still cold, can be overcome by the BK on slow burn.
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