BK Princess Insert with Uninsulated Liner in CT?

[Dustin]

Lots of assumptions here that installers always do it right. I’ll share a story.

In my first home, I knew nothing about wood heat. I bought an insert and had a liner installed by a certified installer.

At the time:
Installer: this is all you need.
Me: I read about insulation, so I need that? Installer: naaaaah

Then, I came here.

I went into the attic and low and behold, there was framing right up against my block chimney all over the place.

Then, I looked at my liner. Although the chimney had concrete liner as well as the stainless steel, the SS liner literally touched the concrete liner from top to bottom.

So, what happened?

I swept the chimney once a month. I was terrified of having a chimney fire in the liner that would torch off the framing.

AND, my stove was in the center of the house so the block chimney should have been warm enough to keep Creosote accumulation down, right? Wrong. AND I burned properly seasoned wood ( always tested with a MM) in an EPA re-burn stove.

each month I swept thing thing and got piles of yuck. Even though it was a long chimney run I had constant smoke spill and lazy draft until the pipe got nice and warm.

next house, same situation. I did the work myself that time and paid the 250 dollars for the insulation kit. The difference was night and day. Same chimney length, literally almost identical setup, once a year sweep and just gray soot.

My point being. I will never, ever, nor should anyone else ever install a non insulated liner no matter how good you “think” your chimney is. The 250 dollar cost of the kit paid for itself over and over again. Plus, sleeping good at night knowing I met all proper clearances with zero worry.

if I ever have a house with a insert again, and it won’t fit a SS liner with insulation.. I’ll move the stove location. Just not worth the hassle.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

if the chimney cannot compliment a stove due to clearances or other issues you can simply choose a different location and install a metal class A chimney as the outlet.

Also for your case specifically, have you asked for a quote to remove the existing clay liner to accommodate an insulated liner?

In this case there is a three seasons room on the outside wall. There is no room to go out and up.

I didn’t know the clay liner could be removed. That’s an idea. I think I’ll call around.

 

[bholler]

In this case there is a three seasons room on the outside wall. There is no room to go out and up.

I didn’t know the clay liner could be removed. That’s an idea. I think I’ll call around.

Yes the clay can be removed or an oval liner can be used or you could go straight up with a prefab. Lots of options

 

[begreen]

In this case there is a three seasons room on the outside wall. There is no room to go out and up.

I didn’t know the clay liner could be removed. That’s an idea. I think I’ll call around.

There are also ovalized insulated liner solutions if this is a typical 8x12 flue. This often can be used in lieu of breaking out the tiles. That's why I have been asking for the chimney ID.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

I don’t have that info. I wanted the installer to come out and check. He told me it’s probably just big enough for 6” no insulation because of the clay tiles on top looking at it from the outside. He said if they try to wrap it the insulation would be pushed off when they feed it down.

 

[begreen]

Duraliner makes a rigid oval liner that might be applicable for this installation. The insulation is covered by an outer metal jacket.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

Wouldn’t an insulated 6” oval liner be the same outer diameter as a regular 6” insulated liner?

 

[bholler]

Wouldn’t an insulated 6” oval liner be the same outer diameter as a regular 6” insulated liner?

No. It is an oval with an equivalent volume to a 6" round liner.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

In addition to the answer above here is what I found.


Wonder why the dealer didn’t suggest this.

 

[bholler]

In addition to the answer above here is what I found.

View attachment 263433
Wonder why the dealer didn’t suggest this.

Because he is more concerned with making the job quick and easy than making it right.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

I’m glad there is still hope for a wood insert. Thanks for suggesting an oval liner. I’m going to call around tomorrow and see who I can get to install that.

Now for the difficult decision: Blaze King Princess or the Pacific Energy T5. Long burn times and turn down for shoulder season, or simplicity and robustness of the T5.

 

[begreen]

I’m glad there is still hope for a wood insert. Thanks for suggesting an oval liner. I’m going to call around tomorrow and see who I can get to install that.

Now for the difficult decision: Blaze King Princess or the Pacific Energy T5. Long burn times and turn down for shoulder season, or simplicity and robustness of the T5.

Both are good options, just different heating styles and looks. Start out by determining the size of the current chimney liner.

 

[CTkid]

Chances are you don't have the required clearances so you need insulation. There is almost always a way to fit insulation. And if not it can't be done properly and should not be done

Is it still to code if my insulated liner only goes half way up the chimney (15ft flex liner inside a 25ft chimney) ? Thanks

 

[begreen]

Half-code.

 

[kennyp2339]

Is it still to code if my insulated liner only goes half way up the chimney (15ft flex liner inside a 25ft chimney) ? Thanks

You dont want to do that, makes a big mess with creosote falling between the masonry chimney and the liner, then down to hopefully the plate thats installed in the smoke shelf area, and if your really unlucky by burning semi seasoned wood you'll get stinky, sticky liquid creosote running down dripping into the fireplace and on top of the stove. Plus routine cleaning will be a huge undertaking, like the liner would need to be removed, the insert would need to be removed then re-installed.

 

[bholler]

Is it still to code if my insulated liner only goes half way up the chimney (15ft flex liner inside a 25ft chimney) ? Thanks

Possibly if lots of other conditions are met. But it is highly unlikely.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

I had a chimney sweep/repair man come out and take a look. I have a corner fireplace. He said I can’t even get a 6” liner down because of clay tiles around the neck. He will charge me $3200 to break those tiles out on the bottom and install a ~20’ uninsulated liner. He tells me oval won’t be flexible enough to fit, especially when insulated.

Dealer tells me ovals are much more expensive and doesn’t think I need insulation. He hasn’t come out to take a look.

So that would bring the total cost of a blaze king princess install to $8000 or so by my estimate. Ouch... Harmon Pellet 52i installed is $5800. If we were going to stay here 20 more years I’d do it but I’m not even sure if we’re going to stay here 10.

 

[bholler]

I had a chimney sweep/repair man come out and take a look. I have a corner fireplace. He said I can’t even get a 6” liner down because of clay tiles around the neck. He will charge me $3200 to break those tiles out on the bottom and install a ~20’ uninsulated liner. He tells me oval won’t be flexible enough to fit, especially when insulated.

Dealer tells me ovals are much more expensive and doesn’t think I need insulation. He hasn’t come out to take a look.

So that would bring the total cost of a blaze king princess install to $8000 or so by my estimate. Ouch... Harmon Pellet 52i installed is $5800. If we were going to stay here 20 more years I’d do it but I’m not even sure if we’re going to stay here 10.

Tiles around the neck??? I have been doing this a long time and have never heard that term.

Oval liners do cost slightly more. We charge an extra $75 to run it through the ovalizer. And if you use midweight liner it is still every bit as flexible. It really just sounds like none of them want to be bothered with doing it right.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

The chimney repair/sweep said there were clay tiles around the neck. That's what he said. The fireplace sits in the corner of the room, so when you look up through the damper you can see it go up, and then turn to connect to the chimney that sits square with the house. He thought uninsulated would be fine. When I asked about clearances to combustibles he said 6" of brick/blocks is enough and it won't get too hot.

Pretty frustrating working working with these guys, like anything on your house. So hard to know who to trust.

I called one more dealer and they will come out October 2nd. The other chimney sweep is booked out to December. I shouldhave started earlier...

 

[bholler]

The chimney repair/sweep said there were clay tiles around the neck. That's what he said. The fireplace sits in the corner of the room, so when you look up through the damper you can see it go up, and then turn to connect to the chimney that sits square with the house. He thought uninsulated would be fine. When I asked about clearances to combustibles he said 6" of brick/blocks is enough and it won't get too hot.

Pretty frustrating working working with these guys, like anything on your house. So hard to know who to trust.

I called one more dealer and they will come out October 2nd. The other chimney sweep is booked out to December. I shouldhave started earlier...

He clearly doesn't understand or care about the code and why it is in place. I am sorry you are having such trouble finding a good pro.

 

[PelletPractitioner]

Next guy tells me I should step down to 5” through the throat and that I definitely don’t need 2” clearance on an uninsulated liner if it’s clean. He talked some more and I couldn’t even follow his logic. I didn’t bother asking him to come out.

Incompetent people have me leaning toward a pellet insert again. My last shot is if the dearer would come out and take a look himself.

 

[bholler]

Next guy tells me I should step down to 5” through the throat and that I definitely don’t need 2” clearance on an uninsulated liner if it’s clean. He talked some more and I couldn’t even follow his logic. I didn’t bother asking him to come out.

Incompetent people have me leaning toward a pellet insert again. My last shot is if the dearer would come out and take a look himself.

Wow

 

[PelletPractitioner]

I'm spinning off another thread with photos to ask more about running a 6" insulated liner around some bends.

Any hope of fitting a 6" pre-insulated liner up and around these bends?

A chimney sweep / repair man told me he could knock off a few tiles and fit a 6" but not insulated. Damper plate is 5" so I'm guessing he's planning on cutting that out. Could somebody double check his opinion? Fireplace was a gas fireplace in the corner of the house, built in the 70s by an...

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