BK Ashford 30 questions

[webby3650]

How can you tell by looking at the outside?

Just from experience. Single wall pipe should be a minimum of 18" from a combustible. It's extremely unlikely that you ever have any issues, but technically it's not correct. Either a pipe shield or double wall pipe is what would be needed to correct it. BK recommends double wall on all of their stoves for the best performance.
The cat will not always glow. It's very dependent on the amount of smoke it has available to burn. It also will be much more active when its new, after a while it will be much more predictable.

 

[Shane Collins]

Just from experience. Single wall pipe should be a minimum of 18" from a combustible. It's extremely unlikely that you ever have any issues, but technically it's not correct. Either a pipe shield or double wall pipe is what would be needed to correct it. BK recommends double wall on all of their stoves for the best performance.
The cat will not always glow. It's very dependent on the amount of smoke it has available to burn. It also will be much more active when its new, after a while it will be much more predictable.

That's too bad. In the manual the only clearance I can see from the wall to what I believe is the center of the stovepipe, not the outside edge is 16.375 inches. There is an asterix and a note below saying : "check local codes and pipe manufacturer for pipe clearances. In Canada, 18" clearances from single wall pipe is required." Nothing about in the US. I assumed 16.5 inches was fine as that's more than the manual says.

Also the only reference to double walled pipe is : "Blaze King recommends the use of double wall pipe and two 45 degree elbows instead of a single 90 elbow." That to me reads as only in the situation you're going out the wall you need to use the double wall pipe for the chimney connector. Or is it somewhere else in the manual and I missed it?

So other than the pipe shield, the only other way is to install a double wall pipe as the chimney connector?

 

[begreen]

Single wall pipe is not recommended for this stove. Regardless, in the US it must be 18" from any combustible surface including drywall.

Have to ask why it is not rotated 45 deg for a corner install instead of parallel to the wall?

 

[Shane Collins]

Single wall pipe is not recommended for this stove. Regardless it must be 18" from any combustible surface including drywall.

Have to ask why it is not rotated 45 deg for a corner install instead of parallel to the wall?

Why does the manual say 16.375 inches from the stovepipe to the wall? That's pretty misleading unless I'm reading it wrong.

Also, where does it say that single wall pipe is not recommended for this stove? I can't seem to find that in the manual.

I wanted it rotated 45 degree in the corner but where the pipe would have gone through the ceiling it would have hit a joist. So to make it fit it would have had to stick out into the room more than I wanted and the hearth pad would have had to stick out into the doorway next to the stove. I really wanted the hearth to end in line with the wall and the only way to do that was to have it parallel to the wall.

 

[Shane Collins]

You've got me worried now. I checked the manual I have in hand and online :

(broken link removed to http://www.blazeking.com/PDF/manuals/en/wood/OM-AF30%20E%20V1.02.pdf)

The only references I can find to double wall being required are for mobile home, residential close clearance and residential alcove installations.

"Mobile Home, residential close clearance, and residential alcove installations require a 6” listed double wall close clearance chimney connector, with matching listed factory built chimney suitable for use with solid fuels and conforming to, ULC629 in Canada or UL-103HT in the USA."

"Chimney connector must be double wall close clearance type with either ULC629 or ULCS610 designation. Single wall pipe is not allowed in Mobile Homes or in Alcove Installations."

Mine follows the clearances stated in the manual. On page 11 the clearances are shown. My installation being parallel to the wall should be the second image with D being the stove pipe clearance. It looks to me that the line is from the center of the stovepipe, not the outside edge and it says 16.375. It does say in Canada if using single wall pipe it must be 18 inches but nothing about the USA. Though it does say check with local code. And I assume that's where it says 18 inches?

Even if that is the case why do they show it as being 16.375 inches without stating you're required to have double wall pipe? That seems pretty misleading to me.

 

[webby3650]

They say that because that's how the stove is tested. The stove itself is what they are testing, not the pipe. If you want to have the stove set at the minimum clearances, then you need to use pipe that tested for this. If single wall is being used, then the chimney would need to be installed so the pipe is 18" from the wall, then the stove set under it.

 

[Shane Collins]

They say that because that's how the stove is tested. The stove itself is what they are testing, not the pipe. If you want to have the stove set at the minimum clearances, then you need to use pipe that tested for this. If single wall is being used, then the chimney would need to be installed so the pipe is 18" from the wall, then the stove set under it.

Ok, well thanks for that. Better to find out now. Who would you say is at fault? I paid 900 dollars to have the stove installed professionally and it seems it wasn't done correctly. Should I have specified they used double wall pipe or should they have known? Surely they should have known that if single wall was used it should be 18 inches from the wall.

Also, I'm not 100% sure it's single. Maybe it is double? Or maybe I'm just hoping. Is the only way to know by looking inside? They are mailing me the reciept so I don't have on hand what materials they used. I'm pretty sure it's single though.

If I'm the one who has to change it to double walled, is it a difficult job to do? and is it possible without taking apart the whole chimney?

Thanks.

 

[jeff_t]

Is there 10.75" on the side? If that's 12" tile, it doesn't really look like it.

 

[Shane Collins]

Is there 10.75" on the side? If that's 12" tile, it doesn't really look like it.

On the side there is 10 and 5/8 inches to the wall. 1/8 less than it should be I guess, surely that's not a big deal? The tile is 13 inch.

 

[Highbeam]

Be green did not say single wall is not allowed for this stove. Just that is is not recommended. Single wall is very much allowed for your stove, I've never seen a stove where single wall is recommended.

When you install a stove you are doing two installs. The stove and the chimney. Each has install requirements and you failed to install the pipe correctly. Got the stove right though.

If there was a fire today and it burned your house down, your insurance could deny the claim since your install is illegal.

Swap to double wall. Should be easy. Some sweeps take the flue apart every year for cleanings.

 

[Shane Collins]

Be green did not say single wall is not allowed for this stove. Just that is is not recommended. Single wall is very much allowed for your stove, I've never seen a stove where single wall is recommended.

When you install a stove you are doing two installs. The stove and the chimney. Each has install requirements and you failed to install the pipe correctly. Got the stove right though.

If there was a fire today and it burned your house down, your insurance could deny the claim since your install is illegal.

Swap to double wall. Should be easy. Some sweeps take the flue apart every year for cleanings.

I didn't install the stove, I paid to have it installed. I never thought or suggested that he meant single wall was not allowed, just that I see nowhere in the manual stating I had to use double walled pipe.

 

[Highbeam]

The manual doesn't say you have to use double wall. Single wall is allowed. You misread bg's statement.

 

[Shane Collins]

The manual doesn't say you have to use double wall. Single wall is allowed. You misread bg's statement.

I've been told on here that single walled isn't recommended and double walled is recommended.... I see this nowhere in the manual. That's all I'm saying. I cannot find anywhere in the manual that recommends I use double walled. The only reference that I guess would apply to me is "residential close clearance" Which it wasn't supposed to be. I want to know who is at fault here. Surely the "professionals" who installed the stove should have known that a single wall pipe has to be at least 18 inches from the wall. If closer double walled pipe must be used. So that makes me believe the fault is the installers?

 

[Highbeam]

The installer is at fault. It has nothing to do with your stove or its install manual/requirements. The law requires 18" for single wall.

The way I would approach is to ask them whether they used single or double. They say single, and you say that you thought so to but then questioned yourself because single wall at less than 18" would be illegal and your insurance company would void your coverage.

 

[webby3650]

Earlier you quoted the statement in the manual that says they recommend double wall pipe. It says they recommend double wall pipe and 2 45's instead of a 90. It's not saying if you have an offset to use double, simply that double wall is recommended.
They want you to use double wall because cat stoves have cooler exhaust temperatures than a non cat. When running on low they sometimes have the tendency to lose their draft.It's just more efficient, you don't have to use it though. Provided you have at least 18". I would offer to pay for the double wall, if they come out to install it on their dime, they should have known this.

 

[Highbeam]

All vertical install like this will require just the one slip section of double wall at about 175$. An adapter at each end and you're done. The ceiling box and class a above are unchanged.

I have your same install situation at 10" clearance to the wall and am happy with double wall. Double wall is a better pipe with stainless steel inner liner and better performance. The double wall keeps heat in the pipe for better draft, less creo, and is more durable for a longer life.

The stove heats the space, not the pipe.

 

[Shane Collins]

Thanks for your advice and help. Thanks for pointing out the fault, Webbby. I still feel the use of double wall pipe should have been stated a little better but that's just me and I believe what you're all saying.

I'll contact them tomorrow and offer to pay the difference if they come and install it fixing the problem. Hopefully they wont argue with me.

Apart from this problem the stove worked very well yesterday and last night. It's now too hot in here and I've opened all the windows. I put 5 splits on before bed and put it on 2. It's now 16 hours later and the cat thermometer is still in the active zone. If you want it to die out do you just shut the thermostat off? and when you do that should I leave the bypass open or closed?

One more thing, last night I was hearing what sounded like water dripping down the chimney pipe and hitting the stove. It was 1 drip every 10-20 seconds or so. It sounded like a droplet of water hitting the stove then sizzling away. It wasn't raining outside but it was close to freezing. Something I should be concerned about?

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Highbeam]

So when you load the firebox of an efficient and long burning stove you'd better be ready for the heat. You can turn the bk down lower than just about any stove on the market but there is no off switch.

 

[Calentarse]

Thanks for your advice and help. Thanks for pointing out the fault, Webbby. I still feel the use of double wall pipe should have been stated a little better but that's just me and I believe what you're all saying.

I'll contact them tomorrow and offer to pay the difference if they come and install it fixing the problem. Hopefully they wont argue with me.

Apart from this problem the stove worked very well yesterday and last night. It's now too hot in here and I've opened all the windows. I put 5 splits on before bed and put it on 2. It's now 16 hours later and the cat thermometer is still in the active zone. If you want it to die out do you just shut the thermostat off? and when you do that should I leave the bypass open or closed?

One more thing, last night I was hearing what sounded like water dripping down the chimney pipe and hitting the stove. It was 1 drip every 10-20 seconds or so. It sounded like a droplet of water hitting the stove then sizzling away. It wasn't raining outside but it was close to freezing. Something I should be concerned about?

Thanks again for all the help.

I agree with you, Shane. Seems to me the information regarding pipe clearances and pipe recommendations should be a little clearer.

Nevertheless, seems like an easy fix. I suppose your dealer painted that pipe black? They'll probably need time to paint your new double wall unless you can buy it that way.

 

[webby3650]

Connector pipe all comes painted black.

 

[Shane Collins]

It should be an easy fix as long as connecting into the support box doesn't need anything big doing to it? I assume from what others have said it doesn't. They do come painted black so that shouldn't be a problem. I'll go in and see them in person later. I prefer to talk in person rather than over the phone. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Thanks again for pointing out the issue Webby and thanks all for you advice and help.

 

[Shane Collins]

Ok, so I called the shop and they said that 16 inches is the code. Now somebody is wrong and from what I can find, unless locally here in VT it's different, they are wrong. Does anyone have any idea where I can find the local code or who I should call? I have a feeling if I call them back again and say on the internet it says... they aren't going to buy that. I can't seem to find anything official that's recent. Any idea what I should look for/who I should call or how I should proceed?

 

[Calentarse]

I have a turn in my stove pipe and I don't think I'm to code either...I had someone inspect my setup and he told me it had to be 18 inches too. What's with these people in the business of installing stove pipe and not knowing US code?

 

[Shane Collins]

I have a turn in my stove pipe and I don't think I'm to code either...I had someone inspect my setup and he told me it had to be 18 inches too. What's with these people in the business of installing stove pipe and not knowing US code?

No idea but I'm pretty annoyed at this now. Not sure how to progress or who to talk to. I could just take the easy way out and buy the double walled pipe and install it myself which I know I can do. But after paying 900 dollars to have it installed "professionally" by certified installers I feel I shouldn't have to.

Every place I've looked seems to say the same thing - 18 inches. Most of the code information sheets are from previous years though. I have no idea how long they stay valid and get updated. I fear if I walk in with the 2007 Vermont fire and safety code they'll laugh at me saying "that's 7 years old"

 

[Calentarse]

No idea but I'm pretty annoyed at this now. Not sure how to progress or who to talk to. I could just take the easy way out and buy the double walled pipe and install it myself which I know I can do. But after paying 900 dollars to have it installed "professionally" by certified installers I feel I shouldn't have to.

Every place I've looked seems to say the same thing - 18 inches. Most of the code information sheets are from previous years though. I have no idea how long they stay valid and get updated. I fear if I walk in with the 2007 Vermont fire and safety code they'll laugh at me saying "that's 7 years old"

Yea, I don't blame you for wanting it perfect from professionals. An all too familiar story unfortunately. And everything would be fine until you had a house fire (whatever the cause) and then they claim you're uncovered since it wasn't to code. Maybe someone on here can chime in with something in print to help you out.

Can you call, use your 2007 code and then ask for a more recent one if they shoot it down? I'd imagine explaining these scarios with them might get you somewhere...

worst case scenario you could draw up a contract and have them agree to cover any damages should something occur with regard to a fire and your insurance company did not cover it because of the clearance of the stove pipe...likely to never happen but you'd be covered. They may also come offer to fix it after that request...