Biobricks, the economics of them?

[clemsonfor]

Under the advice of a Mod i decided to start a new thread as i hijacked anothers thread, but was quickly seated by the mod and the thread continues to fly its course. Anyway here is a cut and paste of my comment..

I just looked, these things are $4 for a pack of 8 at TSC. Even at the sale price yall say of $3/8, how can this even be cost effective to burn these, esp pure bio bricks. Your talking in a small stove your burning 12 bricks for 10-12 hours that will cost you $6, thats $12/day for the heat. or in a Blaze king king your gonna use about $9 for a load

I can see where they have thier place like the guy who said he was sick and there easy or if you have a huge snow and are trapped in the house and dont have a huge supply of wood at the house and dont want to trudge through 2 feet to the shed. But i was thinking these things are like the size of those duraflame firelogs, but they appear to be more like 8"s maybe?

Firewood has to be way cheaper to even buy it!

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Well, yeah. Of course it's not the most economical way to heat the house. Just like processed food isn't the cheapest way to fuel your body.

They are convenience items.

Matt

 

[wrxtance]

A friend of mine used his stove for ONLY supplemental heat. probably 70% oil and only 30% wood. For him, he bought a single ton of the eco bricks and that lasted him the winter - at his pace. For him, this worked well and he didn't have to lift a finger, no mess, and they fork lifted the pallet of bricks right into his garage.

heating 100% with these (like I do with wood) I too don't see how they could come close. I do use them to jump start my unfortunate semi-seasoned wood this winter...

 

[Dakotas Dad]

The economics of them don't work out for everybody. Simple as that. I bought a few packs this year to play with.

Where I live, they are more expensive than buying firewood, with hardwood delivered at $45 a rick, or $120 a cord. To use the bricks costs half again as much. (Here they can be bought by the pallet at Oschliens for about $2.15 a pack if pre-ordered. Works out to about $200 a cord.

BUT, if your other options are gas/oil or electric, they still win hands down, and many who live in the northeast pay 2-3 times what we do here for firewood split/delivered, while the price of the bricks remains about the same when bought in bulk. If I had to buy my wood, I would in fact consider these, because they are pretty clean, bug free, and easy to work with. Put three pallets in the basement in the fall, and never have to go outside all winter. lol

Here pelltets are pretty popular, among people who don't have, or don't want to mess with wood.. I see it as the same mind set, except with the bricks, you CAN heat without power and can switch to cord wood at any time.

 

[Mainely Saws]

Yes , in southern coastal Maine the average price for seasoned firewood per cord can easily $300 or over . At $240 per ton on sale , the ECO bricks are competitive . I do a mix of cutting my own wood & buying some . I buy a ton on sale to mix in with my cord wood & having an E/W stove they come in very handy for me . A typical load of fuel would be 3 smaller splits E/W , 3 or 4 ECO bricks on top of that N/S & then the biggest splits I can get in there E/W again . The ECO bricks tend to burn longer ( especially in coal stage ) & it makes for a longer fire for me . The bricks store in a much smaller area & are bug free . I wouldn't choose to burn the bricks solely by themselves but they do serve a nice purpose .

Bob

 

[Chettt]

I've tried liking this fuel for a couple of years and I do to some degree but not nearly as much as real wood. Using both the ones from Tractor Supply and this year I bought Gren Heat bricks from Menards I find that in a medium to large firebox 4 bricks equals about two splits in heat output. The brick heat curve is hard and hot for a couple of hours and only so so as it burns to ash. To load 10 or more for an extended burn, you would need to find a way to retard the ignition of most of them until later . With bricks only, it is hard to shut the primary completely down.

I would like to try these in a Jotul 602 or other small box stove.

Menard's price for 20 blocks is $5.00 which is 38lbs of fuel. I think they work as good as the other brands.

With well seasoned wood, my primary use for them is putting one or two in on a cold start and using them like a turbo charger to get the box hot sooner.

 

[spirilis]

It's convenience and also works for those who don't have land to stack firewood, have fussy HOA's, etc. My biggest gripe is the price point is usually a tad above wood pellets when the appliance you burn them in is slightly lower in efficiency than a pellet stove on top of that... I'd rather see the price point equal with pellets or below. But I do burn them exclusively, relying on the heat pump for >35F temps and we enjoy the fires.

Also keep in mind, not all bricks are created equal and I've found a lot of factors come into play--fineness of the sawdust used, species of wood, actual size of the brick, etc. The "WoodBrickFuel" 2lb bricks I burn as kindling b/c they burn hot & fast, expand a lot, hard to get good burn times with them. Not sure what species of wood, I think those are a mix as the mfr pools sawdust from a variety of local businesses. The large "Eco Energy Fuel Blocks" (7-8lb/block) bricks don't expand, burn much slower and actually coal up, giving good burn times. They're made of red & white oak and all sawdust comes from one source, a hardwood flooring mfr. in Kentucky.

 

[ort5]

I think others have made good points. I burn Envi Blocks along with less-than-seasoned cord wood as supplemental heat to my oil burner. I bought 2 cords of "seasoned" wood 2 years ago that still isn't dry! That's the type of frustration that I'm sick of. The wood also has mouse poop, snake skins, bugs, mold and dirt on it. The Envi Blocks have none of that and are bone dry.

Is cord wood cheaper? Perhaps, but not by much when you figure in time and aggravation. I do love the way that cord wood burns when properly seasoned though. You don't get great coals with the brick fuel.

Sometimes I think I should have bought a pellet stove, but then I realize that the stove would cost $2 - $3k more than my wood stove. That extra money can buy lots of Envi Blocks! Perhaps in my next house....

 

[MarkinNC]

In my climate, which is mild, most of the homes here use heat pumps to heat their homes. I know very few people with a gas furnace. For me, I can heat my house with electricity cheaper than $12 per day. I only save about $200 per month heating with wood.

 

[blwncrewchief]

Under the advice of a Mod i decided to start a new thread as i hijacked anothers thread, but was quickly seated by the mod and the thread continues to fly its course. Anyway here is a cut and paste of my comment..

I just looked, these things are $4 for a pack of 8 at TSC. Even at the sale price yall say of $3/8, how can this even be cost effective to burn these, esp pure bio bricks. Your talking in a small stove your burning 12 bricks for 10-12 hours that will cost you $6, thats $12/day for the heat. or in a Blaze king king your gonna use about $9 for a load

I can see where they have thier place like the guy who said he was sick and there easy or if you have a huge snow and are trapped in the house and dont have a huge supply of wood at the house and dont want to trudge through 2 feet to the shed. But i was thinking these things are like the size of those duraflame firelogs, but they appear to be more like 8"s maybe?

Firewood has to be way cheaper to even buy it!

clemsonfor, I saw your post last night and wanted to comment also that you have to keep the different brands and sizes clear between the different bricks. The post last night was in reference to BIO bricks which I believe are about half the size of the ECO bricks that TSC sells. I played with the ECO bricks and I could heat my house on 2-3 packs a day average which at the sale price would be $6-$8 a day or $180-$240 a month. The economics part depends alot on where you live and what your available heating options cost. Here I can get cord wood for $150 a cord or so. So the bricks really are not a cheaper alternative. Now if you watch the post on here some either are paying over $300 a cord and some can't find seasoned dry wood period. Another consideration is storing the bricks is much easier as you can fit the "approximate cord equivalent" of one ton on one pallet.

I also can see the advantage for people with smaller fireboxes for overnight burns and more overall heat output. With the 3+cf firebox I have I don't have a problem getting a long enough burn or as much heat as I need with any kind of cord wood but I can see having a 1.5cf or so box being a pain in the rear fighting long enough burns and enough heat to keep up. So in some cases I would be inclined to pay a little extra for the advantages of the bricks. I keep some on hand just for backup because they are so easy to store. It's kind of like having your couple year wood supply on hand I also keep a dozen packs in the house. Example for me is the wife had shoulder surgery so loading firewood in the house from the stack is out for her for the winter. Then a couple weeks ago I was sicker than a dog for 5 days and going out in the cold for firewood was the last thing I wanted to do. I have a rack that holds a 1/3 or so of a face cord in the house and loaded it before I got sick so I was able to make it without using the backup bricks. If I didn't have the wood in the house or it would have been colder out I could have used the bricks instead of having to drag my sick self outside for firewood. Alot of people don't like storing cord wood inside because of bugs, dirt, etc so these can be a good alternative for that purpose also.

 

[begreen]

If you are stuck buying wood at this time you probably are going to get poorly seasoned wood with low heat output. In this case, getting dry BioBricks could make the difference between being comfortable or not. If you are in an urban area, highly-compressed wood products can be quite desirable because they are easier to store than cord wood and they burn very cleanly.

Just like wood, there is a large variation in the heat output and burn time of compressed wood products. Some low compression products expand rapidly in heat and burn up in a few hours. I'd avoid these products if the intent is to heat full time with them. The highly compressed products are a different animal and have fantastic burn times when used as directed. But follow their instructions! They can overfire a stove if burned incorrectly.

 

[agartner]

I'll throw my take into the mix, being that it was my post that kind of kicked this whole economics thing off. I pay about 270 a ton plus delivery - lets just call a tad under 300 bucks a ton for a full season. I burn anywhere from 3 to 4 tons a season. So I'm paying a bit under 1200 bucks for 4 tons. If I heated solely with propane, which is the house system, I would burn 250 gallons a month. At close to 4 bucks a gallon, that's 1000 bucks a month. If my heating season is 4 months then I would shell out 4 grand to heat my house. In reality, when I was pure propane, it was more like 3500 bucks, but hey, whats 500 smackers between friends? My net savings is 2000 dollars a year at minimum over propane.

Cordwood prices for "seasoned" range anywhere from 240 to 280 in my neck of the woods. Unseasoned - maybe in the 200 dollar range. But, as we all know much too well, seasoned wood isn't, so this basically means for me to meet my heating needs and to do it "right", I need to have 9 to 12 cords stacked up in the back yard - a third of that pile bought two years ago, another third bought a year ago, and the last third bought during the current year. On my little half acre lot in N'Hamshire suburbia, that's good chunk of real estate to take up. With the bricks, I buy my season's worth in September or October, stack 'em in my garage, burn 'em in the winter, lather, rinse, and repeat for next year.

Lets say I did decide to stack up 12 cords over time - I'm still paying 200/cord unseasoned, so that's 800 a year for heat vs. 1200 a year for heat. $400 difference, but I'm also spending time stacking, cleaning, covering, splitting, and hauling loads in through the snow, not to mention the real-estate those 12 cords eats up. For me, that $400 dollars and then some get eaten up in just my labor cost.

Then there's the convenience thing - nothing to split, nothing to cover, very little mess to clean up. Granted, if I lived on, had access to, or owned a dedicated wood lot where I was able to harvest my own cordwood, and had the time to harvest, cut, and split that wood, I think mine would be a very different story.

I could also scrounge for wood - it's definitely available all over the place up here, but that's also a time and effort thing - and working professionally full time, well lets just say I have to pick and choose how to best spend my free time. I could spend all summer collecting free wood or I can spend the summer with the family or riding my motorcycle. For me, not a real tough choice.

Anyways -they work well for me for where I'm at now.

Cheers!

 

[Pallet Pete]

Under the advice of a Mod i decided to start a new thread as i hijacked anothers thread, but was quickly seated by the mod and the thread continues to fly its course. Anyway here is a cut and paste of my comment..

I just looked, these things are $4 for a pack of 8 at TSC. Even at the sale price yall say of $3/8, how can this even be cost effective to burn these, esp pure bio bricks. Your talking in a small stove your burning 12 bricks for 10-12 hours that will cost you $6, thats $12/day for the heat. or in a Blaze king king your gonna use about $9 for a load

I can see where they have thier place like the guy who said he was sick and there easy or if you have a huge snow and are trapped in the house and dont have a huge supply of wood at the house and dont want to trudge through 2 feet to the shed. But i was thinking these things are like the size of those duraflame firelogs, but they appear to be more like 8"s maybe?

Firewood has to be way cheaper to even buy it!

I was the sick guy and can say that I do not find them to be cheaper but you are right they have there place. Most of my wood I harvest which means minimal cost (gas, food, and oil) thats about all. I can see very easily where a city person without land but a garage could end them useful even cheaper than gas. At 4 dollars we can say roughly 600 a season to heat at my capacity thats not bad at all and it could be less. I used 8 at once but judging by how hot and how long they burn I could have done 5 easily and got the same burn time might sound crazy but its true. They burned for almost 18 hours on the last load which means they are really efficient for the price. The duraflame log when I tried went for about 4 hours and lost most heat at 3 hours overall unimpressive in my book. The Eco logs are very impressive when used right that much I can say but use them wrong and they can burn extremely hot ( dangerously ).

Pete

 

[HotCoals]

I'll throw my take into the mix, being that it was my post that kind of kicked this whole economics thing off. I pay about 270 a ton plus delivery - lets just call a tad under 300 bucks a ton for a full season. I burn anywhere from 3 to 4 tons a season. So I'm paying a bit under 1200 bucks for 4 tons. If I heated solely with propane, which is the house system, I would burn 250 gallons a month. At close to 4 bucks a gallon, that's 1000 bucks a month. If my heating season is 4 months then I would shell out 4 grand to heat my house. In reality, when I was pure propane, it was more like 3500 bucks, but hey, whats 500 smackers between friends? My net savings is 2000 dollars a year at minimum over propane.

Cordwood prices for "seasoned" range anywhere from 240 to 280 in my neck of the woods. Unseasoned - maybe in the 200 dollar range. But, as we all know much too well, seasoned wood isn't, so this basically means for me to meet my heating needs and to do it "right", I need to have 9 to 12 cords stacked up in the back yard - a third of that pile bought two years ago, another third bought a year ago, and the last third bought during the current year. On my little half acre lot in N'Hamshire suburbia, that's good chunk of real estate to take up. With the bricks, I buy my season's worth in September or October, stack 'em in my garage, burn 'em in the winter, lather, rinse, and repeat for next year.

Lets say I did decide to stack up 12 cords over time - I'm still paying 200/cord unseasoned, so that's 800 a year for heat vs. 1200 a year for heat. $400 difference, but I'm also spending time stacking, cleaning, covering, splitting, and hauling loads in through the snow, not to mention the real-estate those 12 cords eats up. For me, that $400 dollars and then some get eaten up in just my labor cost.

Then there's the convenience thing - nothing to split, nothing to cover, very little mess to clean up. Granted, if I lived on, had access to, or owned a dedicated wood lot where I was able to harvest my own cordwood, and had the time to harvest, cut, and split that wood, I think mine would be a very different story.

I could also scrounge for wood - it's definitely available all over the place up here, but that's also a time and effort thing - and working professionally full time, well lets just say I have to pick and choose how to best spend my free time. I could spend all summer collecting free wood or I can spend the summer with the family or riding my motorcycle. For me, not a real tough choice.

Anyways -they work well for me for where I'm at now.

Cheers!

Very good post!
Still saving money over propane and I'm sure your house is warmer with the Bio-Bricks!

 

[richg]

I'll throw my take into the mix, being that it was my post that kind of kicked this whole economics thing off. I pay about 270 a ton plus delivery - lets just call a tad under 300 bucks a ton for a full season. I burn anywhere from 3 to 4 tons a season. So I'm paying a bit under 1200 bucks for 4 tons. If I heated solely with propane, which is the house system, I would burn 250 gallons a month. At close to 4 bucks a gallon, that's 1000 bucks a month. If my heating season is 4 months then I would shell out 4 grand to heat my house. In reality, when I was pure propane, it was more like 3500 bucks, but hey, whats 500 smackers between friends? My net savings is 2000 dollars a year at minimum over propane.

Cordwood prices for "seasoned" range anywhere from 240 to 280 in my neck of the woods. Unseasoned - maybe in the 200 dollar range. But, as we all know much too well, seasoned wood isn't, so this basically means for me to meet my heating needs and to do it "right", I need to have 9 to 12 cords stacked up in the back yard - a third of that pile bought two years ago, another third bought a year ago, and the last third bought during the current year. On my little half acre lot in N'Hamshire suburbia, that's good chunk of real estate to take up. With the bricks, I buy my season's worth in September or October, stack 'em in my garage, burn 'em in the winter, lather, rinse, and repeat for next year.

Lets say I did decide to stack up 12 cords over time - I'm still paying 200/cord unseasoned, so that's 800 a year for heat vs. 1200 a year for heat. $400 difference, but I'm also spending time stacking, cleaning, covering, splitting, and hauling loads in through the snow, not to mention the real-estate those 12 cords eats up. For me, that $400 dollars and then some get eaten up in just my labor cost.

Then there's the convenience thing - nothing to split, nothing to cover, very little mess to clean up. Granted, if I lived on, had access to, or owned a dedicated wood lot where I was able to harvest my own cordwood, and had the time to harvest, cut, and split that wood, I think mine would be a very different story.

I could also scrounge for wood - it's definitely available all over the place up here, but that's also a time and effort thing - and working professionally full time, well lets just say I have to pick and choose how to best spend my free time. I could spend all summer collecting free wood or I can spend the summer with the family or riding my motorcycle. For me, not a real tough choice.

Anyways -they work well for me for where I'm at now.

Cheers!

Damn good post. My son is a little over three years old and I want to spend as much time with him as possible. When he's older we can split and stack wood together, but for now, time with him is priceless. I have a lot of wood stacked and a big load of oak to split and stack, but when it's running low, I'll turn to bricks for a while.

 

[pastera]

When they are on sale around me htey are $2.99 a pack

$2.99 * 80 = 239.20/ton with 17MBTU/ton

$14.07/MBTU for BioBricks

CSD Cord of green oak: $220 (average spring price) - add 10% for two year wait: $242/cord
Oak is 25MBTU/cord
$9.68/MBTU for CSD cordwood (you still have to stack it)

Adding $50/cord to stack - $270 +10% = $297/cord
$11.88/MBTU for CSS cordwood

Oil is $3.29/gallon with 138700BTU/gallon
7.21 gallons per MBTU

$23.14/MBTU for oil

BioBrick are still way cheaper than oil if you don't have the time or room to deal with cordwood

Aaron

 

[eclecticcottage]

We've been using Ecobricks along with a limited wood supply to get through this season (our first) since we heat exclusively with wood-no other heat appliance currently hooked up and working. Our other options are propane and electric, both more expensive and boring (I like to SEE the fire). Given our limited access to seasoned wood, they seem like the best option. Other than winterizing and staying at our old house.

We tried a pack of "wood brick fuel" last night. I'd burn it if it was GIVEN to me AND I had nothing else OR in our bon fire pit. IMO, they sucked. Much more "sawdusty" than Ecobricks, less compressed and couldn't damp down as much. Also, much more expensive.

We plan to buy a pallet or two next year also, to suppliment what we have C/S/S from this summer since I don't think there's much hardwood in there (all free scrounge-I know there's box elder, pine and willow among others). Still cheaper than the other options, and easier to stack-plus I don't have to store it for years (we don't have a huge area for wood storage).

 

[begreen]

Yes, low compression bricks and logs are not worth it IMO. The highly compressed products are the only ones worth using as a steady fuel.

 

[spirilis]

The "wood brick fuel" makes fantastic kindling/flue warming or shoulder season fires FWIW. It was my main fuel when I used the Defiant upstairs (and didn't have as much space to heat/burn times didn't matter much when the upstairs reached a minimum of 85F). My routine with the Jotul downstairs is to use 4 woodbrickfuel to get the stove blazin', then on the cooldown (~2hr later) rake the brittle glowing sawdust ember mass to the front and reload with the big boys.

Also helps at times to toss 1 woodbrickfuel brick into the middle of the big fuel block inferno to get the stove back into the 650F range... sometimes when running 2 of the big 8lb blocks I struggle to get over 550F (though lively blue secondaries are happening, just not enough to reach high temp)

 

[eclecticcottage]

The "wood brick fuel" makes fantastic kindling/flue warming or shoulder season fires FWIW. It was my main fuel when I used the Defiant upstairs (and didn't have as much space to heat/burn times didn't matter much when the upstairs reached a minimum of 85F). My routine with the Jotul downstairs is to use 4 woodbrickfuel to get the stove blazin', then on the cooldown (~2hr later) rake the brittle glowing sawdust ember mass to the front and reload with the big boys.

Also helps at times to toss 1 woodbrickfuel brick into the middle of the big fuel block inferno to get the stove back into the 650F range... sometimes when running 2 of the big 8lb blocks I struggle to get over 550F (though lively blue secondaries are happening, just not enough to reach high temp)

Hm..sounds like a difference in how stoves like to run.

The wood brick fuel did heat up nice for a brief time, to about 600 or so, then actually snuffed out after a bit when damped to the same place the eco bricks usually are (maybe 1/4 open). Had to add other bricks and some pine to restart. I tried restarting two of them on their own ember bed last night and ended up staying up for an hour, getting frustrated and throwing in an ecobrick and pine again to get it going-and I had to light those because the embers just weren't lighting anything.

We usually load 3-5 ecobricks at a time, depending on ambient temps and needed burn times, sometimes with 2-3 splits for a longer day burn when it's colder (a split on each side n/s and one in front e/w). Never had a problem with them getting temps up, usually to 600-650 then down to cruise @ 500-550. Hottest it hit was about 750 this past tuesday when we packed her full with 6 bricks and a split to get temps back up when it was 5 degrees out, basically a cool but not cold start (away for 12ish hours). I try to stick to 4 per load/1 pack per day MAX because of the cost.

 

[GAMMA RAY]

I play around with the envi-bricks. I have used the eco bricks too but TSC is out of them until next year.
Sometimes I get some that seem to snuff out....even on a good coal bed. I have to wonder if it is because of moisture absorbed in some of them. The last couple of packs I got are not burning well and look a lil different..and they look bigger. I am going to question the guy at the stove shop about it. I never noticed that with the ecos...just the envis.....

 

[fredarm]

I've used Bio Bicks, Geo Bricks (a Canadian equivalent), and am currently using Eco Bricks from TSC. I like them all, although I prefer the Eco's because they are larger and I can use them N-S in my little stove. I tried Wood Brick Fuel bricks a couple of years ago and found that they just dissolved in a glowing mess of sawdust. Compression makes a difference, as BeGreen notes above.

 

[Mainely Saws]

Another comparison might be between Eco bricks in a wood stove & burning wood pellets in a pellet stove . I have been considering installing a pellet stove in my basement for the really cold spells but if the Eco bricks get any cheaper & even if they don't , I might just install an $800 NC-30 or the smaller NC-13 where the furnace used to be ,( using an existing chimney ) & not have to worry about electricity , weekly cleanings , repairs & high initial purchase costs of a pellet stove .....

 

[jjs777_fzr]

I would not heat solely with BioBricks but mixing them in with splits makes for a nice fire. Maybe 2-3 bricks with wood on top and in front. I haven't decided whether placing the bricks tight together or spread out yields an advantage over the other - since I'm only using a few at a time with the splits.
I seem to have better coals or embers at the end of the burn where I can get a fire started more easily if I lag in between.

 

[agartner]

There are good products out there, and there those that are not so good. It essentially comes down to how well compressed the final product is. If not enough compression is used, the brick will swell, fall apart, and leave your with a pile of blackened sawdust that has the combustion properties of a rotted dead fish. Inspect your bricks before you buy. If it flakes apart easily in your hand or seems "loose", walk away. One way I use to tell quality is that most manufacturers will "imprint" something - a logo, or a word, or something into the side of the brick. If the impression is crisp and clear, you're probably good. If it looks "ratty", well, your better off going back to the cordwood pile.