Smoke in house, Country Elite E260 Insert

[webby3650]

Begreen, thanks for the links.

Here's a question, when you hire a company that is an authorized dealer for a stove and they install it incorrectly how do you go about proving that their installation is not correct and how do you make them reimburse you for the cost of having to do it correct.

Is that flue connector considered an authorized part for this stove, if not what is. I googled the Lennox party number 71163 and don't see it for sale. Does ironstrike sell the correct flue connector.

Considering it has a round outlet, then an 8” to 6” reducer would be used. That’s bad enough, that big box makes things even worse.
I also think you’ll have a very limited recourse at this point. It’s been a while...

 

[Mark8]

Considering it has a round outlet, then an 8” to 6” reducer would be used. That’s bad enough, that big box makes things even worse.
I also think you’ll have a very limited recourse at this point. It’s been a while...

Here is a picture of the flue connector the manual calls for, any suggestions or links where to buy that connector.

 

[begreen]

Begreen, thanks for the links.

Here's a question, when you hire a company that is an authorized dealer for a stove and they install it incorrectly how do you go about proving that their installation is not correct and how do you make them reimburse you for the cost of having to do it correct.

Is that flue connector considered an authorized part for this stove, if not what is. I googled the Lennox party number 71163 and don't see it for sale. Does ironstrike sell the correct flue connector.

It's hard to say what constraints the installer was under. Without being on site with the parts on hand I can't say looking at a few pictures if he was constrained by the area available under the damper to fit the parts, the angle of the liner entry, or if it was just what he brought on the truck.

 

[Mark8]

From their instructions it sounds like a sill off plate is very important.

(Whatever “seal off” method is used, it must effectively seal the area to prevent room air passage to the chimney cavity of the fireplace.)

 

[Rickb]

I believe this is used when you are not connecting it to a class a chimney system.

 

[Rickb]

Does it smoke all the time or are you just getting smoke in the beginning of the burn? If the flue is cold you can get a reverse draft causing all the smoke to come out the door and any other openings till the flue warms and the draft reverses. Try using a torch or heat gun to warm the flue a bit till you can feel the air going up the flue then try to light a small fire.

 

[Mark8]

Does it smoke all the time or are you just getting smoke in the beginning of the burn? If the flue is cold you can get a reverse draft causing all the smoke to come out the door and any other openings till the flue warms and the draft reverses. Try using a torch or heat gun to warm the flue a bit till you can feel the air going up the flue then try to light a small fire.

When the insert is at operating temps I notice smoke coming out the door when loading wood, but when the door is closed I can not see smoke exiting the insert I just notice the air in the house is smokey and smells like a chemical smell. Another member suggested turning the lights off and using a flashlight, I will try that after I get the flue connector connected properly.

Unfortunately it sounds like I need to redo the the job correctly because insulating the liner is what should of been done along with many other changes.

Now I need to figure out how to pull fifteen feet of liner out of a chimney by myself without falling off the ladder

 

[begreen]

View attachment 218689 From their instructions it sounds like a sill off plate is very important.

(Whatever “seal off” method is used, it must effectively seal the area to prevent room air passage to the chimney cavity of the fireplace.)

A sealing block off plate is required when stubbing into the masonry chimney above the damper plate. It is not required when the insert is connected to a full liner.

 

[kennyp2339]

When the insert is at operating temps I notice smoke coming out the door when loading wood, but when the door is closed I can not see smoke exiting the insert I just notice the air in the house is smokey and smells like a chemical smell.

OMG - I feel dumb, I think your stove is just breaking in lol. It takes a few good hot burns to get the paint to set, you may actually see the pain develop a lighter haze then it deep black color. Operating temps on this stove run into the 600's so you when you build the fire your literally running the stove. Being that the stove has been there for 6 years even with a new liner installed recently you probably have a combination of curing paint (hence the paint smell) and dust burning off.
You may have weak draft when first lighting the fire because you have shorter flue and a cold liner, so you may encounter smoke roll out with the loading door open, but once the fire gets situated that actual fire smoke should be going out the chimney, once the stove temps reach into the 500's you should see very little smoke and more heat vapor coming out the chimney cap.
If the insert was truly smoking from the actual fire smoke you would smell it, wood smoke is very distinct, also it wouldn't be light haze. Make a larger fire and get that stove temp up.

 

[bholler]

I believe this is used when you are not connecting it to a class a chimney system.

No it is meant for when you are direct connecting. Just liner run up into the clay. Which by the way a code compliant clay lined chimney is a class a chimney as is a stainless lined one or a prefab one.

 

[Mark8]

Well I was hoping Santa was going to pull out this liner so he could deliver presents last night but he must of skipped my house. Good morning and happy holidays to everyone.

Ok, thanks for the info on the block off plate, I was misinterpreting what they were saying.

This stove has been used many times and the paint is cured.

If you add extra pipe to increase draft are you not exposing more pipe to the cold outside air, or does the extra length over ride that factor.

The vent that I mentioned in my first post, should that be blocked off so the insert is only pulling air from inside the house? Pic included.

Thanks for all your help

 

[moresnow]

If you add extra pipe to increase draft are you not exposing more pipe to the cold outside air, or does the extra length over ride that factor.

Believe you will want to use dual wall class A stainless steel insulated pipe/cap. Rather common exterior pipe used on many installs today. Easily found at most big box stores. Your required extension length will be highly unlikely to be affected by weather.

Your outside vent appears to be a combustion air supply. Unless I am mistaken? May be required for your setup. Should be covered in the manual. Might be worth checking that it is not restricted/plugged. That would cause problems.

Are you opening the primary air control completely a minute or two prior to opening the stove to reload? Letting the existing fire/coal bed pick up a strong draft? Maybe I missed this in the posts but it may be your fix. Also should be wide open at a cold start. Guessing you have that covered but its worth mentioning. Good luck! Merry Xmas.

 

[begreen]

Mark8, can you clarify one point? I was under the impression that the stove burns well since connecting to the liner. Is this incorrect? Does the insert burn poorly or does it burn hot with no smoke coming from the chimney once the fire is going well? Is there secondary combustion or none?

 

[Mark8]

Mark8, can you clarify one point? I was under the impression that the stove burns well since connecting to the liner. Is this incorrect? Does the insert burn poorly or does it burn hot with no smoke coming from the chimney once the fire is going well? Is there secondary combustion or none?

Yes the stove burns well after I connected it to a liner. I don't know what burning hot means, I don't have a temperature gage at the moment. It was dark outside and I could not see smoke coming from the chimney, I shined a flashlight but it was dark, daylight observation would be needed. I wish I had many hours burning this stove to answer these questions but I don't, when the house fills up with smoke you can't live in that kind of environment so I just have to open the windows for fresh air and let the insert burn out.

I am not looking for a quick fix, I have been living without heat for six years so I'm not here to put a quick band aid on the situation, what is most important to me is information on installing the insert correctly, the info I have so far is to have the chimney inspected to see if it's clean enough, insulate pipe, maybe add an extra length of pipe, use a 8" round to a 6" round flue connector to eliminate that box, replace ceramic fire blanket with a full sheet, remove the insulation around the surrounded for air venalation.

This is what I still need to know: do I block off that air vent leading to the insert so air is pulled only from the house and not outside air into the back of the insert. How do I know if the two air tubes need to be serviced or replaced. Some of the bricks are cracked do those need to be replaced.

Can you explain what secondary combustion is?

 

[begreen]

The reason I ask is that there appear to be two schools of thought here. One is that something is smoldering when hot on the exterior of the stove or flue liner. The other is that the stove is performing poorly due to a restricted flue. The latter is in spite of the manufacturer approving the stove with a 6" liner and the liner being 15ft tall. That's why I asked how the insert is performing, outside of the smoke in the house issue.

I had thought of kenny's suggestion that perhaps, for the first time, the insert is getting hot enough to bake in the paint. This seems unlikely, but is a remote possibility due to the unknown past fires history of the insert. Stove paint needs to bake in. When stove paint gets hot for the first time it will smoke. It takes getting the stove body up to 500-600º in order to bake in the paint. Perhaps with the new liner the stove is getting hot for the first time. Seems unlikely given its age, but possible and testable with an IR thermometer. Paint baking in has a different, slightly sweet and chemical smell than wood smoke. It goes away after 2-3 burns where the stove top gets over 500º.

I can't say for certain which is the issue. This is a process of elimination by the remote control of the internet. Not always easy to do.

 

[Mark8]

I appreciate everyone's input, and Kennyp's observation about the paint could very well be true because that chemical smell, smells just like burning paint, and me thinking that the stove is old and the paint must be cured could be inaccurate, and yes there was a sticker on the flue cap that was melting and dust and dead bugs and spiders. So you pointing out to me that a stove with a insert burns hotter opens my eyes as to not disregard Kennyp's observation

Is there a formula for figuring out the proper length of pipe?

Maybe I should reattach the flue with ceramic wool around all four sides to make a good connection and give the insert a few more burns with a good species of burn wood to troubleshoot the problem before spending a lot of money.

Great info guys, very helpful

 

[begreen]

Paint baking in occurred to me as a possibility as soon as you described the smell. I thought back to when BrotherBart connected his old Sierra insert to a liner and how it burned hotter than it ever had. 15ft of liner is about what the stove was EPA tested with, though testing may have been done with an 8" liner.

 

[Mark8]

OMG - I feel dumb, I think your stove is just breaking in lol. It takes a few good hot burns to get the paint to set, you may actually see the pain develop a lighter haze then it deep black color. Operating temps on this stove run into the 600's so you when you build the fire your literally running the stove. Being that the stove has been there for 6 years even with a new liner installed recently you probably have a combination of curing paint (hence the paint smell) and dust burning off.
You may have weak draft when first lighting the fire because you have shorter flue and a cold liner, so you may encounter smoke roll out with the loading door open, but once the fire gets situated that actual fire smoke should be going out the chimney, once the stove temps reach into the 500's you should see very little smoke and more heat vapor coming out the chimney cap.
If the insert was truly smoking from the actual fire smoke you would smell it, wood smoke is very distinct, also it wouldn't be light haze. Make a larger fire and get that stove temp up.

OMG- I feel dumb for dismissing your post so quickly

 

[Mark8]

Believe you will want to use dual wall class A stainless steel insulated pipe/cap. Rather common exterior pipe used on many installs today. Easily found at most big box stores. Your required extension length will be highly unlikely to be affected by weather.

Your outside vent appears to be a combustion air supply. Unless I am mistaken? May be required for your setup. Should be covered in the manual. Might be worth checking that it is not restricted/plugged. That would cause problems.

Are you opening the primary air control completely a minute or two prior to opening the stove to reload? Letting the existing fire/coal bed pick up a strong draft? Maybe I missed this in the posts but it may be your fix. Also should be wide open at a cold start. Guessing you have that covered but its worth mentioning. Good luck! Merry Xmas.

That is one thing that I am not doing, I open the primary air control but I don't wait a minute or two. I'll try that, thanks

 

[begreen]

Paint baking is not a sure thing. This is just one possibility. Webby could also be right. Go by the process of elimination, doing the simplest things first.

 

[Mark8]

I was able to take a video with my phone then capture some pics, looks tight.

 

[Mark8]

I would like to give a big shout out to one of the sponsors of this forum ROCKFORD CHIMNEY SUPPLY I spoke to Dennis today and he spent about an hour helping me and answering many questions, I sure learned a lot from our friendly conversations.


I was able to take more pictures today of the liner, It appears that they ran three lengths of straight pipe and then a piece of flex liner to the flue, the straight pipe measures 6-1/8" ID and 6-1/2" OD, so it's double wall pipe, would that pipe be insulated. The last piece of pipe exiting the chimney is half in the chimney and half out as you can see the dimples of the screws on the inside of the pipe.


I was also able to get photos of the connector flue ring and 8" to 6" reducer Lennox part number 71163 complements of Cozy Cabin Stove & Fireplace Shop, Warrensburg, NY 12885. Thank you for that.


As I mentioned in my first post the box they used does not sit flat on the stove and left a 1/2" air gap in the back that he filled with ceramic wool, if I could find some 1/2" thick ceramic gasket material it would raise the slanted part of the box off the Flue and I would have a good connection, or 1/2" thick pieces of steel with two thin gaskets would also work then I could screw the existing box back down.


Option two is buying part number 71163 and a adjustable 45 deg connector if room allows for that, I would probably have to adjust the pipe up the chimney.

What option would provide the best draft, existing square connector to round or changing it to all round from the flue up with an adjustable 45 deg elbow before the flex pipe.

 

[Mark8]

Can anyone identify the manufacturer of this pipe or provide a link to the same style, it measures 6-1/8" Id by 6-1/2" od, as you can see the screws from the support clamp have dimpled the inside of the pipe showing that it has two walls, and there are seams on both walls.

 

[Mark8]

I built a platform and rolled the insert out using pieces of 1/2" ground rod, the insert was built in 1991, the secondary burn tubes appear to be welded in, at what point do you determined that they need to be replaced, or can they be replaced?

 

[Mark8]

Chimney measures 9" wide, the mortar would need to be removed to allow an 8" liner.

The below paragraph is from the installation manual so it looks like the manufacturer has tested this unit to perform with a 6" liner under these conditions, so I will be installing the same 6" liner with the proper flue connector and also adding 24" of liner to increase chimney height to compensate for the 30 deg. Offset. I will have the brick chimney cleaned by a certified chimney sweep, insulate the flex pipe, install a block off plate, repair the secondary burn tubes, install new fire brick and I will update as to the performance of the unit.

This appliance may be installed using 6” chimney in vertical installations utilizing a 8” to 6” reducer (cat. # 71134) at the flue collar. If the venting system is all vertical and the total vent length above the flue outlet exceeds 14 feet, it is recommended that the 8” to 6” pipe reducer is used and a 6” venting system be installed.