Anyone put in a catalytic and a non-catalytic and compare them?

[aaron1]

rdust, do you know anyone who measures flue temps on a BK stove? How high are the flue temps that you can put your hand into the flue, "even with an extremely hot fire burning?" Could you put your hand onto the flue pipe with the combustor engaged and hold it there?

Why is there so much smoke going up the chimney when the combustor is not engaged? I bet the BK is less efficient than an EPA non-cat when it is running in updraft mode, as the secondaries are eating up some the particulate in an EPA not-cat even when it's not firing at full speed, right? That makes Webby's comment make more sense to me now:

"After the first 20 minutes I get no smoke at all on a 24 hour soak in the BK, that's clean!"

It belches smoke for 20 minutes and then you throw the bypass, and it burns clean for hours and hours?

 

[BrotherBart]

If you get over the idea that a non-cat has to run up to the moon and blast you out of the room and have gas stove fire out of the burn tubes and just keep a nice fire going in your wood stove that "up and down" curve flattens out in a heartbeat. Non-cat owners are probably the only wood burners that should ignore most of what they are told on h.c. Sorry boss.

Open challenge. On a cold night put the same amount of wood in your wondercat and I will in the 30. At the same stove top temps (600 or over) for the same time I will kick that BK's ass.

For low and slow I use the electric radiator heaters. Cheaper than a cat stove.

 

[aaron1]

If you get over the idea that a non-cat has to run up to the moon and blast you out of the room and have gas stove fire out of the burn tubes and just keep a nice fire going in your wood stove that "up and down" curve flattens out in a heartbeat. Non-cat owners are probably the only wood burners that should ignore most of what they are told on h.c. Sorry boss.

Open challenge. On a cold night put the same amount of wood in your wondercat and I will in the 30. At the same stove top temps (600 or over) for the same time I will kick that BK's ass.

For low and slow I use the electric radiator heaters. Cheaper than a cat stove.

BB, I'm not being a smart-butt, but I don't know what you mean. Do you mean that if you just keep a smaller fire burning in your non-cat stove without the blazing secondaries, you will have a more moderated temperature in the house? Aren't you still burning more wood than the wondercat stoves?

What do you mean that "Non-cat owners are probably the only wood burners that should ignore most of what they are told on h.c."?

For the 600+ burn, I assume that you are saying that the BK will not be able to maintain 600+ for as long as your non-cat?

Again, I mean no disrespect. I'm just new to this and don't understand all of what you're saying.

 

[aaron1]

Is it necessary to have a well-insulated flue with a BK catalytic so you can get good draft with such low flue temps?

I think I just answered my own question as I see on the video that you need double-wall stovepipe to not restrict draft.

Does the BK King require an 8" flue because you can't get enough draw on a 6" pipe for that big of a stove at a low flue temp - the same flue temp - as with the 6" flue Princess?

 

[BrotherBart]

Just saying if you burn that BK to heat your house instead of talking about "low and slow" all the time that the sucker will eat just as much wood as a non-cat. And that in my opinion most people burn in non-cats wrong based on the advise they get here.

But then I have been saying that for years and nobody listens or cares. Since I don't live in the Yukon.

 

[aaron1]

me: "If you ran the BK on full high would it still beat the CC?"

Yes

BB, Webby seems to be saying that even if you run the BK at 600F it will beat the Cape Cod. I guess you would disagree with that?

How do most people burn non-cats wrong, by going really hot and letting them cool down a lot? I'm new here, so I don't know what you mean by that. I'm very interested in what you are saying.

 

[rdust]

If you get over the idea that a non-cat has to run up to the moon and blast you out of the room and have gas stove fire out of the burn tubes and just keep a nice fire going in your wood stove that "up and down" curve flattens out in a heartbeat. Non-cat owners are probably the only wood burners that should ignore most of what they are told on h.c. Sorry boss.

Open challenge. On a cold night put the same amount of wood in your wondercat and I will in the 30. At the same stove top temps (600 or over) for the same time I will kick that BK's ass.

For low and slow I use the electric radiator heaters. Cheaper than a cat stove.

This may be true for some, with my non cat I had no choice it was up and down with raging secondaries with the air closed off. May have been my chimney causing the issue but for my install there was no way to control the stove. If I kept the stove I planned on modifying the secondary air in hopes of making it more controllable.

No reason for a 600* stove top here all that does is run me out of the room. A steady temp in the 400-500* range is all that is needed to keep the temp even in the teens or single digits here.

 

[webby3650]

ust saying if you burn that BK to heat your house instead of talking about "low and slow" all the time that the sucker will eat just as much wood as a non-cat.

I do heat my house! Why is it so hard to believe that a BK can't run low and slow and still produce heat? Once the place is up to temp, a 400 degree stove is plenty of heat.
If I run this stove on high, even though there is NO reason to, it will use no more wood than a non-cat. It will out perform any non-cat on any air control setting.

 

[rdust]

I do heat my house! Why is it so hard to believe that a BK can't run low and slow and still produce heat? Once the place is up to temp, a 400 degree stove is plenty of heat.
If I run this stove on high, even though there is NO reason to, it will use no more wood than a non-cat. It will out perform any non-cat on any air control setting.

I find the exact same thing to be true for my house. A 400* stove can/will actually add heat back into the home when it's in the teens. These stoves keep the inside temp so flat from load to load you don't need the big heat at reload to warm the place back up.

 

[shoot-straight]

i have a hearthstone pheonix (non-cat). i am currenty searching for a replacement. i want longer burn times, with more heat during those burn times. my wood consumption is pretty high as well. additionally, i want a blower. my pheonix does have a high peak, then a longer, cooler period after thats plain insufficeint for my house. its an amazing looking stove with a great fireview though! i thought i had my new stove in the ashford. looks were approved by the mrs, its firebox was a bit bigger and shouldhave been able to put out more heat with less wood. well... due to the BK requirement for several feet of vertical height right out the stove, i think im out of luck. i have to have at least a little bit of bend above the stove to get it to the pipe. its an alcove installation into an oversized fireplace.

now i am back in search mode. i was hoping to give a cat stove a shot.

 

[charger4406]

I own both, Jotul F600 and BK Ashford, both roughly same size firebox.
The F600 will throw a lot of heat once the load is up to temp and burning clean,
500 to 650 with air shut down and cruising for 2.5 to 3.5 hrs then temps fell steadily
over the course of about 6 hrs to around 200, about 10 hrs after reloading.
Temps hit 85 in the stove room and at the end of the burn was 66,
outside temp down to 18, this was an overnight burn.
Same load in the BK and once the cat is engaged, about 15min on bed of coals,stove top
temp 415, stove room 74, rest of the house at or above 69.
Over the course of the burn to the next reload, 20hrs later, outside air temp dropped to
about 20, then back up to 30 during the day to 25 at reload at 6pm.
house stayed withing 2 degrees +- over the course of the burn, I opened the air some in the
morning because the kids like to eat by the fire then closed back down.
Should have reloaded the F600 sooner as it throws no heat at 200 so lets say
1.5-2 loads to 1 between the 2 stoves.
Just my experience so far.

PS. I still love the Jotul

 

[Highbeam]

I burned a non cat Lopi Endeavor for 2 seasons, this is my 3rd season with my BK. The 2 seasons with the Endeavor I burned 5+ cords of wood, the first 2 seasons with the Princess I burned just over 3 cords each year. Same chimney, same house, same stove location.

I obviously have no scientific data but the BK is a much better heater for my house. The biggest difference I find with the BK is the ability to control the amount of heat I'm putting into the house. The Endeavor was UP then Down, the BK allows you to dial the stove in which allows for a long even burn.

My chimney was cleaner with the Endeavor.

I also ran a non-cat on the same hearth as my BK. I pushed more than 25 cords of wood through that hearthstone before I decided to try one of these new fangled wondercats. Same all vertical chimney, same hearth, same wood, same house. I have always used double wall pipe and I measure internal flue temps so I was able to note the differences.

Emissions is of no value when evaluating stoves. Who cares? All are very good to meet EPA specs. Emissions ratings are not related to efficiency as you may suspect. You can have a very clean burning inefficient stove. Efficiency is measured as system efficiency so volume and temperature of flue gas (waste btu) compared to input btu. You know from conservation of energy laws that every bit of energy not sent up the flue is sent into the house.

What I measured was the non-cat stove always dumping very large volumes of waste gas at very high temperatures. I measures the flue gas temperature from the cat stove as being half of the flue gas temperature from the non-cat. I can't measure flow rates but by looking at the internal design and the gas plume from the stack it is very obvious that the non-cats emit a volume of flue gas many times higher than the non-cat. Most of the time, the only air being fed into the cat stove is what can be sucked through a 3/8" hole in the stat plate. With the non-cat, the secondary air system is always at full throttle and the primary air also has a low limit that is at least as large as the 3/8" hole. More waste volume and more waste temperature means that the non-cats shoot all the energy up the stack. That's the efficiency problem.

The other huge benefit is the longer and controlled burntimes. I can run the cat stove low and slow. You can't do that with a non-cat.

My wood consumption dropped from 5-6 cords to 4 cords with the wondercat. Honestly, I wouldn't care if it used the same amount of wood, the experience is so much better and the house stays much warmer.

The only drawback is that the fire is not as nice to watch. All that wood wasting sure makes a nice non-cat fireshow.

Oh and my flue was much cleaner with the non-cat. All that waste heat sure keeps the flue hot and clean. It's not bad with the cat stove but don't believe all this jive that they burn cleaner. Low flue temps, and slow velocities make for the perfect environment for junk accumulation.

 

[aaron1]

Thanks. That's very useful information.

 

[rdust]

My wood consumption dropped from 5-6 cords to 4 cords with the wondercat. Honestly, I wouldn't care if it used the same amount of wood, the experience is so much better and the house stays much warmer.

I feel the same way, the lower wood consumption is just a bonus.

Plenty of us have switched from EPA non cats to BK cats with similar results so these just aren't one time results. Just off the top of my head I came up with these names and I'm sure there are more.

Myself
Highbeam
Todd(To be fair Todd already had a cat stove he still had good results though)
North of 60
aansorge
Hiram Maxim
Webby
Edit: charger4406

 

[charger4406]

Myself Highbeam Todd(To be fair Todd already had a cat stove he still had good results though) North of 60 aansorge Hiram Maxim Webby

What am I, chopped liver

 

[rdust]

What am I, chopped liver

As I said it was off the top of my head. Sorry I'll add you you to the list!

 

[Todd]

It was about 10 years ago when I switched out an EPA non cat to cat and I also saved a bit on wood, probably about a cord per year. I saved even more wood when I switched out my BK Princess for a gas stove. Lol

 

[Slow1]

I find the exact same thing to be true for my house. A 400* stove can/will actually add heat back into the home when it's in the teens..

That matches my experience as well - seems that holding the house temp requires quite a lower stove temp than trying to raise it even a few degrees. For my house, 350-400 is good enough to hold and slowly increase even with colder outside temps.

But even with this said - I don't think measuring stove top temps alone is a good comparison between cat and non-cat stoves. I have taken to measuring the sides as well as the top of the stove and both the FV and the PH have much warmer sides when there are good flames in the box than without (relative to the stove top). I'm talking 100-150* differences (i.e. sides at 300, top at 450 when in "cat" mode). I wonder if this is true on the average non-cat?

My bottom line is that if the stove heats the place well (whatever temperatures you have) then it is doing well. Overall less wood burned is good as well if you can maintain comfortable temps. Efficiency numbers? useless to me as a practical matter - I don't think I'd be able to detect the difference at home between any current EPA stove during a burn if done 'right'.

I am drawn to the BK 24+hr burns though - cutting the number of reloads in half would be nice from the stove management side of things (and since all smoke I get is on a reload, that would mean less smoke outside so I can claim my "green guy"/"Good neighbor" prize)

 

[Highbeam]

But even with this said - I don't think measuring stove top temps alone is a good comparison between cat and non-cat stoves. I have taken to measuring the sides as well as the top of the stove and both the FV and the PH have much warmer sides when there are good flames in the box than without (relative to the stove top). I'm talking 100-150* differences (i.e. sides at 300, top at 450 when in "cat" mode). I wonder if this is true on the average non-cat?

Very true, stove top temps are only part of the story. The cat stove just holds the fuel, the cat element on top makes the heat. The non-cat is oozing heat out in all directions.

 

[Charles1981]

I wanted a cat stove because I liked the thought of using less wood even if it was just a chord less per year as well as having one of the most clean burning stoves in its size range.

That being said, the price range of the non-cat stoves was VERY appealing as well. I could have saved a substantial amount of money going with a new epa non-cat stove versus my overtly expensive VC...

Regardless it is 5 degrees outside right now. Wind chill -10. The stove is heating 1900sq feet. The stove is in the basement. Upstairs it is 71 degrees. Stove room is 89. I reload every 8-9 hours when stove drops below 300 degrees. I couldn't be happier. I would probably be just as warm with a non-cat stove but who knows. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

 

[webby3650]

I wanted a cat stove because I liked the thought of using less wood even if it was just a chord less per year as well as having one of the most clean burning stoves in its size range.

That being said, the price range of the non-cat stoves was VERY appealing as well. I could have saved a substantial amount of money going with a new epa non-cat stove versus my overtly expensive VC...

Regardless it is 5 degrees outside right now. Wind chill -10. The stove is heating 1900sq feet. The stove is in the basement. Upstairs it is 71 degrees. Stove room is 89. I reload every 8-9 hours when stove drops below 300 degrees. I couldn't be happier. I would probably be just as warm with a non-cat stove but who knows. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

That's real good! That's a lot of work for any stove really, a basement adds a lot of difficulty when it comes to heating the whole house. I'm guessing you are running it with the air up pretty high? I doubt a non-cat would be getting 9 hours in that scenario. It's nice to hear some positive feed back on the 2n1!

 

[Charles1981]

No i run it almost completely closed almost all the time. I have it completely closed right now. If I leave the stove open it really gets almost too warm. I have 2 large floor registers above the stove and a spiral staircase with ceiling fan above it leading down right next to the stove. Its a perfect environment for air circulation from the basement upstairs.

 

[webby3650]

Here is my Blaze King Ashford on med-high.
Just so you can get an idea of how they pull off those long burn times.

 

[webby3650]

Here is the Cape Cod also running at med-high with nearly the same stovetop temps. These are both convection top stoves running in the same house, with the same wood.
A few big differences are of course the fire view, and the intense heat that comes from the glass. I'm sure everyone thinks that they have hot glass, but this is super intense! The floor is too hot to stand on with bare feet!
It's pretty obvious why the BK is so easy on the wood.

 

[aaron1]

Thanks, Webby! Very interesting. The BK is incredibly boring. Would you say that the stove temperature on the BK is very hot right above the combustor and then cools down dramatically over the rest of the stove, while the Cape Cod is pretty hot on all surfaces?