Advise on Enviro Boston 1700 vs BK Ashford 25 and Several Newbie (yet specific) Questions

[edyit]

@chemie if space for wood is limited then a product like this might help

(broken link removed)

 

[Ashful]

Remember the op is in NYC, he can have kiln dried delivered, to get past the 1 cord storage limit.

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

I have a similar house to the OP in the Northeast and have the Boston 1700 insert. I burn nights and weekends plus (like 24/4 and 10/3 instead of 24/7).

I used about 300 gallons of oil in addition to about 2.5 cords. That’s including a couple of rooms in a different envelope from the stove and running the domestic hot water. You have multiple zones so that’s good - if the stove has a hard time reaching an area, the furnace kicks on. No big deal.

+1 on air sealing and insulating. I saw a big difference after air sealing the attic (lots of recessed lights / fans / vents). Looking forward to seeing this year after increasing the attic insulation from a bad R19 to about R50 and replacing a leaking French style patio door that leaked horribly.


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[chemie]

Remember the op is in NYC, he can have kiln dried delivered, to get past the 1 cord storage limit.

I looked up places that sells kiln dried firewood. The one with good reviews is :
http://www.lifirewood.com/mobile-long-island-firewood.php
1/8 cord is about 100 bucks. They say it is kiln dried to 20 to 25 %.
Are redbricks or enviro bricks good for the inserts and cheaper?


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[begreen]

Ask Capt Soot about fuel suppliers in your area. Do you have a location in a dry area to store a 4' x 4' pallet of compressed bricks?

 

[chemie]

Ask Capt Soot about fuel suppliers in your area. Do you have a location in a dry area to store a 4' x 4' pallet of compressed bricks?

Yes, I can store that much in my garage


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[edyit]

Are redbricks or enviro bricks good for the inserts and cheaper?

If you get pressed wood bricks / logs as long as they are pure wood with no binding agents then they are ok to burn, if they are the presto logs with wax binders then avoid them, as for cost, thats all relative to your area and what you pay for wood, if you cut your own trees and stack for free then no buying a pallet of bricks isn't cheaper, at $100 for 1/8 of a chord then yes i'd say the pallet is cheaper, also check on the bricks around black friday as they usually go on sale, 1 pallet is supposedly equal to a chord, so if you have room to stack a chord of wood and room for a pallet you can mix them together as you burn them.

 

[chemie]

Ask Capt Soot about fuel suppliers in your area. Do you have a location in a dry area to store a 4' x 4' pallet of compressed bricks?

It says on their website:
“Enviro-Bricks are a consistent size for easier storage than cordwood.
1 ton of Enviro-Bricks = one cord of wood.
1 ton of Enviro-Bricks = 1 42”x42”x48” skid.
Cord of wood = 48”x48”x96” of storage space. Enviro-Bricks take half the storage space but supply longer burn times, due to density and optimized stove fill.”
Anyone agrees with this ?



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[begreen]

It says on their website:
“Enviro-Bricks are a consistent size for easier storage than cordwood.
1 ton of Enviro-Bricks = one cord of wood.
1 ton of Enviro-Bricks = 1 42”x42”x48” skid.
Cord of wood = 48”x48”x96” of storage space. Enviro-Bricks take half the storage space but supply longer burn times, due to density and optimized stove fill.”
Anyone agrees with this ?

That is a pretty standard statement for compressed bricks. If they are of good quality then that is about right. Many people mix them with cord wood, but I got the best results with a competitive product by burning en masse per instructions. There are some test reports here in the hearth wiki: https://www.hearth.com/talk/wiki/fuels/

 

[chemie]

My wife and I work pretty much around the clock, have two kids doing the usual smattering of music lessons, sports, etc., and are managing a large house and property. There are few lives more hectic. That's precisely why I appreciate my BK Ashford 30's, they require so much less time than my old stoves. Load, bypass, set, forget. Come back in 12 - 36 hours, depending on where I set the t'stat.

I still disagree with begreen on simplicity. Yeah, it has a second lever, which is open or closed. I read a lot of stories of run-away tube stoves on here, and folks talking others thru some process of cutting back air at specific increments to avoid it, and wonder why they're not just all running cat stoves. The trouble is, I've never run a non-cat, and begreen has never run a BK. So, you're getting biased opinions, both ways. If you want an opinion from someone who's run both, there are several here on the forum. Paging @webby3650.

The cleaning and yearly maintenance might be more complex on the BK, but that's why we can hire chimney sweeps for that job. I've owned mine for three years, and had the stove shop from whom I bought them do the service the first two years. This year I decided to do it myself, and it wasn't that bad a job, but it took me from May until today to find a free afternoon to do it.

Your life resembles ours a lot. We really need something fits ourlife style. To overcome problem of having space to store more than 1 cord, I am thinking of buying a pallet of enviro bricks (around $400 including shipping) to store in our garage. I am not so handy person but with the help of my wife who is handier than me, I think I can maintain and clean the cat if there are videos on the you tube showing how to do it. We still have not decided on which one to buy but we are leaning more on to Ashford 25 than Boston 1700 though.

 

[chemie]

Begreen is the forum’s expert on so many things, I won’t challenge him on anything, but this one statement:



1. Stoves, especially cat stoves, are long-burn devices. Load it with a fixed load of BTUs (50 lb. of wood), and all you can do is control the release rate. In effect, burn time vs. output rate. For this reason, you end up transitioning from cyclical heating to continuous temperature heating. In other words, you won’t have a house that’s 70F during the day and 62F at night, it’ll just hold close to 70F (or your preferred temperature) all day and all night, always.

.

Can you elaborate on this Ashful, please.Can I adjust it to low during sleeping time to save from wood ( like 65 F) and increase the output when we wake up to like 75 F?

 

[Poindexter]

Your payback tine ultimately comes down to the price for your primary heat - natural gas- versus your price for stove fuel.

If you can get a million BTUs of natural gas for $100 and a million BTUs of compressed logs for $80, your break even point on an upgraded burner is kinda long.

But if you pay $100 for a million BTUs of natural gas and you can get pallets of bio-logs for $20 per million BTU, your payback is much shorter.

Local to me, for the same amount of energy, calories, BTUs, Joules, whatever, cord wood is $1, fuel oil for my oil furnace is $2, and electricity is $10.

 

[chemie]

Through texting, Captain soot told me that Boston 1700 is more powerful but Asford 25 will give longer burn time. I asked how much cords of wood we would need, he said with Ashford about 3 cords with Boston 1700 about 5 cords. Since we have a storage/ space problem of no more than 1cord we can place in our back yard, additional need of 2 cords with Boston 1700 is concern for us. Please weigh in if his comments make sense or not.

He also told me that we are not in that much of cold climate so we do not need insulated liner or damper sealing block or ceramic or Roxul mineral insulation. I called every single other installers in the area and they told me exactly the same thing. Some said they may put insulation and then I asked Captain Soot if he would put insulation at the bottom he said he would though it would be total waste.

Ashford 25 seems more suitable to our hectic lifestyle but his comment about Boston 1700 being stronger and Ashford 25 being listed to heat up to 1600 as compared to 3000 sq for Boston 1700 is making us a bit puzzled since our house is 2 stories with about 2400 sq.

He quoted Ashford 25 installation included $4200 and Boston 1700 as $4100. Does this sound reasonable?

Thanks everyone again for reading and giving inputs.

 

[chemie]

Your payback tine ultimately comes down to the price for your primary heat - natural gas- versus your price for stove fuel.

If you can get a million BTUs of natural gas for $100 and a million BTUs of compressed logs for $80, your break even point on an upgraded burner is kinda long.

But if you pay $100 for a million BTUs of natural gas and you can get pallets of bio-logs for $20 per million BTU, your payback is much shorter.

Local to me, for the same amount of energy, calories, BTUs, Joules, whatever, cord wood is $1, fuel oil for my oil furnace is $2, and electricity is $10.

Great advice. I’ll try to calculate how much BTU we have used in past 2 years .


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[Poindexter]

He quoted Ashford 25 installation included $4200 and Boston 1700 as $4100. Does this sound reasonable?

Thanks everyone again for reading and giving inputs.

With no insulated liner and no block off plate? Jesus wept. I do not miss the east coast at all. You are in climate zone five IIRC. I don't now what a reasonable price is for an insulated liner and a block off plate would be there, but someone has, or thinks they have, you by the short hairs,.

 

[begreen]

The purpose of an insulated liner is not determined by climate zone, it is usually a code issue, but it will help reduce creosote accumulation. I'm not surprised at the resistance to installing a block off plate. It's more work and the dealer doesn't care, they are not paying for the wood to heat the house. Just do it.

 

[Ashful]

Can you elaborate on this Ashful, please.Can I adjust it to low during sleeping time to save from wood ( like 65 F) and increase the output when we wake up to like 75 F?

Some random thoughts, which hopefully answer this and a few other questions you've had:

1. The beauty of the Ashford is two-fold: (a) it's capability of stretching one load of wood for more than 24 hours, and (b) the automatic thermostat allows you to set it and forget it, at any burn rate you choose. Thanks to the thermostat, the burn rate does not vary with outside temperature as other stoves. I have marked the settings on my thermostats for 12-hour and 24-hour burn times, and I can hit them repeatably, depending on the needs of my schedule.

2. The BK thermostat varies inlet air to maintain a more constant temperature throughout the burn. Not perfect, but way better than any stove without a thermostat. With my old stoves, I used to have to open the air control as the load would wane, this stove does it automatically. BK is not the only stove with a thermostat, but they do seem to have one of the better ones.

3. You do not need to size your stove to your maximum heat load, unless you plan on heating 100% by wood. Instead, I treat my house like a large capacitor, just pumping BTU's into it all day and all night via two wood stoves. The multiple zones of oil-fired baseboards do their thing to keep the house at the temperature I like. I'm putting a heck of a dent in my oil bill, without all the hassle of trying to keep the house at the right temperature via wood stove only.

4. If you buy a stove that can heat your house on the coldest of days, especially a stove that has a narrower range of outputs (non-cat), it's likely it'll roast you out of the house on days that are less frigid. Many find it better to size their stove a little below their maximum need, to increase the number of days of the year you'll be able to use it, even if it can't keep you house at 80F by itself on the coldest day of the year.

5. The Ashford is more efficient than the Enviro, but not by the 3 to 5 cord differential you're being quoted. There are assumptions in there, that you'll be running the BK at a lower rate. My wood usage dropped from 10 to 6 cords per year, when I switched from Jotul to BK, but there were several factors beyond efficiency that caused those numbers to shake out the way they did.

 

[NoGoodAtScreenNames]

I think you should decide what you really want the stove for. With limited amount of storage space it sounds like heating exclusively or almost exclusively with wood is probably out of the question but whatever you do burn will reduce your use of gas / oil. Personally I wouldn’t “waste” my wood burning it when I wasn’t home to enjoy it. I’d be a nights and weekend burner with smaller loads on weeknights if I was in your position.

I don’t want to start a Cat vs Tube argument, but there are aesthetic concerns too. I’ll tell people I burn for a lot of reasons, but if I didn’t have a glass door to watch the fire I wouldn’t do it. Some people are different. It’s all good - lots of different types of people on the forum.

My best suggestion is look at some videos of each stove burning, especially the Ashford on low since cat burns different than you’d expect. Ask your wife which one she would want to sit down next to. Pick the one she wants.

Edit:

This is a good video of the range of flame show on a BK.

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This is pretty typical for the Boston

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[Ashful]

My best suggestion is look at some videos of each stove burning, especially the Ashford on low since cat burns different than you’d expect. Ask your wife which one she would want to sit down next to. Pick the one she wants.

That is a good point. The tube stoves are known for their flame show. The BK video posted is not how a BK burns, it was clearly shot in the moments after turning it down from high burn to low, which is the only way to get the “flaming ceiling” shown in that video. They normally burn up from the wood on high burn, to glowing wood at low burn, to dead black box (no flame) at the absolute lowest burn settings (when you’re trying to squeak 30+ hours out of a load). On settings medium and above, it looks more like a fireplace, you don’t see any action from the cat, just flame licking up from the wood.

To get the action shown in that video, you run on high for 20 minutes, then slam the thermostat down to low. Then you’ll get that burning ceiling shown in the video. It won’t last but a few minutes in that mode, though.

My experience is based on eastern hardwoods (mostly oak and ash), our western brethren might observe different behavior, burning softwoods.

 

[Rob711]

I’m strongly looking at the Ashford 25 myself. I’ve contacted captain soot and must say he was very good at replying and answered my questions.
The no block off or insulated liner is disappointing to hear, if your willing to pay why not just do it! I think the bk manual states it should be connected to insulated liner. Good luck

 

[Ashful]

It will always perform best with an insulated liner, as with any high-efficiency stove. A warmer liner means:

1. Less creosote condensation, which can be a real issue on very high efficiency stoves, where exhaust temperature is very low.

2. Maximized draft, for your chimney height and circumstances, which enables a lower minimum burn rate.

The block-off plate is not a show-stopper. You can add it yourself later, with pretty basic tools. I believe it can be as simple as foil-faced roxul, cut with a knife, and stuffed in place.

 

[begreen]

The block-off plate is not a show-stopper. You can add it yourself later, with pretty basic tools. I believe it can be as simple as foil-faced roxul, cut with a knife, and stuffed in place.

Not everyone is handy with sheet metal or has the tools for cutting and installing a block-off plate. That's why even some dealers discourage putting one in. It can be a big PITA to retrofit if clearances are tight after the insert is installed. Sometimes the insert has to be pulled to do it. Better to have it installed with the insert.

Foil faced roxul would have an adhesive attaching the foil. Is that non-combustible or approved for high-heat locations?

 

[Ashful]

Foil faced roxul would have an adhesive attaching the foil. Is that non-combustible or approved for high-heat locations?

Not my area of expertise, so I had Googled that one before posting it. One of the first hits was a product called RWA45, at insulationsuperstore.co.uk. They state:

“All Rockwool RW slab products, either un-faced or with an aluminium foil or glass fleece on one or both surfaces, achieve an A1 classification in accordance with BS EN 13501-1 and therefore comply with the requirements of non-combustible materials/products, as defined in all UK and Ireland Building Regulations.”

 

[Tegbert]

And at least on the ashford 25 while it’s easy to remove the flue adaptor there is a gasket in there that most likely will need replaced after being used along with pulling the insert out.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[begreen]

Not my area of expertise, so I had Googled that one before posting it. One of the first hits was a product called RWA45, at insulationsuperstore.co.uk. They state:

“All Rockwool RW slab products, either un-faced or with an aluminium foil or glass fleece on one or both surfaces, achieve an A1 classification in accordance with BS EN 13501-1 and therefore comply with the requirements of non-combustible materials/products, as defined in all UK and Ireland Building Regulations.”

Yes, I just found Roxul datasheets rating it up to 1200ºF. Not sure if this is Roxul, but Grainger carries this
https://www.grainger.com/product/ROXUL-1-x-48-x-24-Mineral-Wool-Foil-19NE81