Advice on new stove

[Ashful]

That's strange you mention that. I get a faint creosote smell in the summer near the stove and I've wondered if it is in a negative zone.

It's very normal to have draft stall or reversal in warmer weather, but good positive draft in cold weather. If the smell only occurs in summer, I'd just stuff a wad of insulation in the stove pipe for the summer.

So if I am understanding correctly a hybrid stove that is designed correctly would probably work fine for this situation and also a cat stove might be even better?

Yes, in some ways. There's nothing wrong with a hybrid, they actually can have better performance than a cat at higher burn rates, but you're adding complexity and cost for a performance feature which would seem to be of no benefit for your scenario. At low burn rates, cat stoves rule, and even those hybrids will be running in cat-only mode.

Keystone or Palladian is what they recommend for our situation. The only problem is the price is just about up there with the BK stoves and I think that if I'm spending that much money I want the automatic dampener feature. Now I need to really do some thinking.

They think that both of the steel stoves are going to be too much stove.

Any thoughts on this?

I'd trust them on this, they know their stoves, and have received feedback from thousands of customers on such. The issue is that the Woodstocks, while very good stoves, just can't be dialed back quite as far as a BK with it's automatic thermostat. With your lined 28 feet of chimney, you'll be able to turn the BK way down to the lowest burn rates, and hit 30+ hour burn times on a BK 30 model (eg. Ashford 30, Chinook 30, Sirocco 30).

There are countless (often hostile) threads on this forum, about BK vs. Woodstock burn times, most often BK King vs. Woodstock Progress Hybrid or Ideal Steel. That little search window at the top right corner of this page will turn them up. The Woodstock hybrids get very good burn times, but the BK's often go another 30% beyond that, normalized for firebox size. That translates to a wider range of available output, for the same size stove.

 

[begreen]

The Keystone low burn is 1500 btus/hr lower than the Absolute Steel and about 3500 btus/hr lower than the BK stoves. So for fall and spring burning with the Keystone may be more comfortable.

 

[Ashful]

The Keystone low burn is 1500 btus/hr lower than the Absolute Steel and about 3500 btus/hr lower than the BK stoves. So for fall and spring burning with the Keystone may be more comfortable.

This may be correct, but don't ignore how they got to that low output. It doesn't have a very low burn rate, in fact it's lowest setting is still twice the rate at which I can run my BK Ashfords. Instead, the Keystone just has an absolutely miniscule 1.48 cu.ft. firebox, which will require reloading every 8 - 10 hours on lowest burn rate, and much more frequently when run higher in cold weather. Stoves that small are great for ambiance, but they're not very practical heaters, unless you're into loading a stove every 4 hours in winter.

I have routinely run one of my Ashfords at consumption rates below 0.08 cu.ft. per hour. That Keystone bottoms out around 0.15 cu.ft. per hour, nearly double the burn rate of most BK's.

If the OP really needs to hit numbers as low as 1500 BTU/hr., then the Keystone may be the way to go, but do remember he's coming down off an Englander NC-30 with minimum burn rate probably 10x that number.

 

[begreen]

The Keystone low burn is 1500 btus/hr lower than the Absolute Steel and about 3500 btus/hr lower than the BK stoves.

Just providing the options. The Keystone low burn 8,500 btu/hr, Absolute Steel low burn 10,000 btu/hr, Ashford 30.1 low burn 12,836 btu/hr, 30NC low burn estim 25,000 btu/hr..

Past reports from Keystone owners say ~12hr burn on low. Fox9988 reports regular 14 hr burns in a tightly insulated 1532sq ft home, but he is in Arkansas. @Todd had a pair of Keystones that he ran on 12 hr cycles on low burn during cold weather.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...ll-or-a-little-big.124148/page-2#post-1669039
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/both-keystones-fired-up.77645/

What will be the best fit is up to the OP. Personally I might go with the Absolute Steel or Sirocco (or Ashford), but the OP knows better where the stove is placed, how well heat circulates in the house and the effect of all the good work that has been done to tighten up the house and super insulate it. Remember DocC heated the place last winter with 2 cords of wood and the windows open. Whatever the choice, the low heat output will be notably lower than the 30NC.

DocC, was the house overheating during below 20ºF weather last winter or just on milder days?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Keystone low burn 8,500 btu/hr, Absolute Steel low burn 10,000 btu/hr, Ashford 30.1 low burn 12,836 btu/hr, 30NC low burn estim 25,000 btu/hr.

According to Page 5 of the Ashford 30.1 Owner's Manual, the low burn rate is 6107 Btu/hr. It states:

Under specific test conditions this heater has been shown to deliver heat at rates ranging from 6107 to 28636 Btu/hr. This wood heater has a manufacturer-set minimum low burn rate that must not be altered. It is against federal regulations to alter this setting or otherwise operate this wood heater in a manner inconsistent with operating instructions in this manual.

(broken link removed to http://www.blazeking.com/EN/PDF/manuals/OM-AF30-E.pdf)

 

[begreen]

According to Page 5 of the Ashford 30.1 Owner's Manual, the low burn rate is 6107 Btu/hr. It states:

Under specific test conditions this heater has been shown to deliver heat at rates ranging from 6107 to 28636 Btu/hr. This wood heater has a manufacturer-set minimum low burn rate that must not be altered. It is against federal regulations to alter this setting or otherwise operate this wood heater in a manner inconsistent with operating instructions in this manual.

(broken link removed to http://www.blazeking.com/EN/PDF/manuals/OM-AF30-E.pdf)

Maybe possible in the lab. This is what is published on their website.

 

[Highbeam]

Wow, good thread. The OP lives in Idaho, just a single fuel tank from my house! I own an NC30 for my 1800 SF shop and also a BlazeKing Princess for my 1700 SF home. Neither building receives any heat except the heat from these stoves.

To me you only have one choice. That choice is between the ideal steel and the 30 series BK stoves (ashford, princess, scirroco, Chinook). The cost of shipping makes the Woodstocks about the same price as you found and the BK company is right there in Walla Walla a short drive from you. Folks with the IS have been able to eek out pretty impressive burn times but of course not as long as BK. If BK went bankrupt and my BK died I would switch to the IS. I would be sad to lose the awesome thermostat feature on the BK and sad to lose the longer burntimes but Woodstock makes some very good stuff.

With a good cat stove, the size of the stove only represents the size of the fuel tank. The fuel tank feeds the cat which makes the heat at the desired rate. Soapstone is pretty to look at but does not help your heating performance when the cat is what makes the heat. I have owned soapstone non-cats and find the stone is actually a drawback due to slow warm up.

Cat stoves are awesome for full time home heating because of the WIDE range of available heat outputs. That gives you the ability to heat the home to a normal temperature whether the outdoor conditions are cold or just barely cool. The NC30 is great for what it is, a cheap non-cat that is very good at making lots of heat. Non-cats can burn anything so a chunk of plywood or colored cardboard that would poison a cat will not hurt the non-cat.

Beware that some of the largest cat stoves require an 8" flue. You shouldn't need any of those models since your home is so small and insulated. 6" insulated liner will be awesome.

I've done a bunch of research on most of the known stove brands and while I do not have a preference on brand as I think they all have there strong points the general problem I'm having is either the stove puts out so much heat I'm back at the point I'm at now or it's so small that I can't get an overnight burn reliably.

I would like to be able to burn a stove the way it's designed, turn it down at night when I go to bed, get up and start burning again all without cooking is out of the house. Maybe a pipe dream?

This is a common problem trying to heat a small home with a non-cat. They don't have a wide range of outputs so if you buy a stove big enough to heat your home when it is very cold then the stove is too big for the rest of the year. Cat stoves minimize this but wood heat will always be a challenge when you are in the warmer part of the year.

I think my first choice would be one of the Ideal Steel hybrid stoves and then after that it would be BK of some sort.

Good. Don't be afraid of a Woodstock hybrid but do compare specifications. Especially burn times which are directly related to output flexibility.

Keystone or Palladian is what they recommend for our situation. The only problem is the price is just about up there with the BK stoves and I think that if I'm spending that much money I want the automatic dampener feature. Now I need to really do some thinking.

The thermostat is wonderful. The woodstocks have very low emissions if that matters to you. The 30 series BKs also have very low emissions but the princess is a bit worse in this regard. Still under 2.5 gph but some folks really like to win this category.

 

[Highbeam]

Maybe possible in the lab. This is what is published on their website.
View attachment 198849

There has been some back and forth on this specification. Either way, output can be turned down very low. I would also like it if all of the company literature agreed and that agreed with the EPA published document.

I wouldn't sweat a few thousand btu in any case. That's a small slice and since we're dealing with solid fuel batch burners there will always be some variation.

 

[Dobish]

i have a vermont castings encore 2n1, which i have had for 2 years now. I have had very positive results, and like the ability to crank it up, or let is burn overnight. I did notice it was more sensitive to wet wood, but once i started burning properly seasoned wood, I was able to control it. I know a lot of people don't like VC, and there have been some issues with them over the years, or maybe I got a good one, but I love our stove. Our place is roughly 1900 sq feet, with a super weird layout and poor insulation. We have found that even with this setup, we can get overnight burns and keep the house comfortable.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Maybe possible in the lab.

All the figures come from laboratory testing. And the lab is designed to replicate a home installation. The primary difference is that the lab is equipped with all kinds of sensors/measuring devices. So, if it's possible in the lab, it can be done in a home install.

The test procedures/methodology is tightly prescribed while a home user has many more choices available in terms of species of wood, size of splits, etc.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

There has been some back and forth on this specification. Either way, output can be turned down very low. I would also like it if all of the company literature agreed and that agreed with the EPA published document.

The 6107 btu/hr figure is the one listed on the EPA website and in the Ashford 30.1 Owner's Manual.

I wouldn't sweat a few thousand btu in any case. That's a small slice and since we're dealing with solid fuel batch burners there will always be some variation.

The difference is not small. 6107 Btu/hr is less than half 12,836 Btu/hr! I agree there will be variation but shouldn't we stick with the EPA published figures when comparing stoves across brands?

 

[Doc C]

DocC, was the house overheating during below 20ºF weather last winter or just on milder days

Yes. We had a good run of cold last year with nights below zero and it was still overheating. I'm talking over 90 degrees downstairs and over 80 degrees upstairs no matter what I did.

My family and friends joke that we can heat our house with 3 birthday candles a winter! If i didn't have all led lights then that might be true...these new lights just don't put out any heat anymore.

As far as emissions, maybe I should care, I really don't. No neighbors close enough to be affected directly from the smoke and my belief is that burning wood is a whole lot cleaner then burning fossil fuels.

 

[Doc C]

Also in case anyone is curious as I get asked by people that come to our house how it stays so comfortable in the summer. For instance right now the temp inside is 66 degrees, a high outside every day this week around 90-96. And the house will not get above 69 inside. I have NO A/C!

Crawl space with R30 in the floor joists, rigid foam on crawl space walls.

R21 inside walls, 4' of blow in fiberglass in attic

Gable,soffit, and ridge vents. Which helps a lot in the summer.

All windows and exterior doors are dual pane with Low E and Argon also Gila Platinum Window tint!! Gila platinum helps in winter as well

Very well air sealed. I think this helps the most.

 

[Dobish]

Also in case anyone is curious as I get asked by people that come to our house how it stays so comfortable in the summer. For instance right now the temp inside is 66 degrees, a high outside every day this week around 90-96. And the house will not get above 69 inside. I have NO A/C!

Crawl space with R30 in the floor joists, rigid foam on crawl space walls.

R21 inside walls, 4' of blow in fiberglass in attic

Gable,soffit, and ridge vents. Which helps a lot in the summer.

All windows and exterior doors are dual pane with Low E and Argon also Gila Platinum Window tint!! Gila platinum helps in winter as well

Very well air sealed. I think this helps the most.

that sounds a lot more sealed up than my log cabin with very little insulation we put in a giant door (9' wide) that gets sun from first light until around 1pm... without the shades, that heats up quickly!

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

that sounds a lot more sealed up than my log cabin with very little insulation we put in a giant door (9' wide) that gets sun from first light until around 1pm... without the shades, that heats up quickly!

I bought two 8' x 8' solar shades (exterior) from Costco for only $45/each that has drastically reduced our inside temperatures this summer. They cover two picture windows (one south, one west). Best $100 ever spent on my house!

 

[Dobish]

I bought two 8' x 8' solar shades (exterior) from Costco for only $45/each that has drastically reduced our inside temperatures this summer. They cover two picture windows (one south, one west). Best $100 ever spent on my house!

i tried to put up one of those this year, but it didn't make it with the wind....

 

[Highbeam]

The 6107 btu/hr figure is the one listed on the EPA website and in the Ashford 30.1 Owner's Manual.



The difference is not small. 6107 Btu/hr is less than half 12,836 Btu/hr! I agree there will be variation but shouldn't we stick with the EPA published figures when comparing stoves across brands?

Yes but BK has on this site told us that the EPA figures are wrong and the manual needs updating. I don't own the ashford or I would care more about getting to the bottom of it, plus half of a small number is still a small number.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

Yes but BK has on this site told us that the EPA figures are wrong and the manual needs updating. I don't own the ashford or I would care more about getting to the bottom of it, plus half of a small number is still a small number.

BKVP said he assumed it was a typo and he would get to the bottom of it and get it fixed if it was. That was 7 months ago. But it only takes 7 minutes to fix a typo. But how can a typo end up being published in the on-line Owner's Manuals of three different stove models, the printed Owner's Manuals and the official July 2017 EPA list of stove specifications? https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2013-08/documents/certifiedwood.pdf The 30.1 series stoves are not new, they have been on the market for years. I'm pretty sure it's not a typo but, rather, a figure calculated using real measurements. And shouldn't we compare apples to apples?

Besides, the maximum heat output is rated at 28,600 Btu/hr. Are we to believe that going from maximum burn rate to minimum by turning the thermostat all the way down only reduces the heat output/hour by 55% (about half)? What is the point of having a catalytic converter and a fancy thermostat if it can only achieve a 55% reduction in heat from wide open? Also, the non-catalytic BK Briarwood II is rated at 10,600-36,000 Btu/hr. Are we to believe the non-catalytic Briarwood II can achieve over a 70% reduction in heat (as well as burning lower and slower) while the Ashford can only manage 55% with it's catalytic converter?

12,836 btu/hr is not a trifle. That's the equivalent heat of having two 8 foot baseboard heaters cranked on full blast, non-stop which is enough to overheat many rooms during less severe winter weather.

 

[begreen]

Also in case anyone is curious as I get asked by people that come to our house how it stays so comfortable in the summer. For instance right now the temp inside is 66 degrees, a high outside every day this week around 90-96. And the house will not get above 69 inside. I have NO A/C!

Crawl space with R30 in the floor joists, rigid foam on crawl space walls.

R21 inside walls, 4' of blow in fiberglass in attic

Gable,soffit, and ridge vents. Which helps a lot in the summer.

All windows and exterior doors are dual pane with Low E and Argon also Gila Platinum Window tint!! Gila platinum helps in winter as well

Very well air sealed. I think this helps the most.

Sounds like the place could be heated with a couple space heaters. Woodstock gave you good advice.

 

[Doc C]

Sounds like the place could be heated with a couple space heaters. Woodstock gave you good advice.

I have a 4000 watt cadet heater downstairs and after the chimney clogged last winter I had to run the heater for a few days until I could deal with it.

It was the coldest part of the year and the cadet heater kept the house warm and only ran part of the time.

One more question that has come up in this process you guys are helping me with.

When i reline the chimney with insulated pipe can get rid of the chimney clean out at the bottom?

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

I have a 4000 watt cadet heater downstairs and after the chimney clogged last winter I had to run the heater for a few days until I could deal with it.

It was the coldest part of the year and the cadet heater kept the house warm and only ran part of the time.

4000W = 13,648 Btu. But it's not possible to run a stove intermittently in the same manner as a space heater.

 

[Doc C]

4000W = 13,648 Btu. But it's not possible to run a stove intermittently in the same manner as a space heater.

This was with all my windows closed. I like to have at least one window a little open on each floor while running a stove. Just don't want my sweat to have sweat while doing it.

 

[Doc C]

The absolute steel is rated from 10k-48k BTU an hour. And it's a good looking stove. I wonder if this could fit into what I'm trying to do. Woodstock thought it might be slightly too big but the more I learn from you guys it seems like it might fit into what we need.

 

[Ashful]

If your 4000 watt heater running 50% duty kept your house warm in the cold of winter, then a 10k BTU stove is going to blow you out of the house on less cold days.

 

[Ashful]

Besides, the maximum heat output is rated at 28,600 Btu/hr. Are we to believe that going from maximum burn rate to minimum by turning the thermostat all the way down only reduces the heat output/hour by 55% (about half)? What is the point of having a catalytic converter and a fancy thermostat if it can only achieve a 55% reduction in heat from wide open? Also, the non-catalytic BK Briarwood II is rated at 10,600-36,000 Btu/hr. Are we to believe the non-catalytic Briarwood II can achieve over a 70% reduction in heat (as well as burning lower and slower) while the Ashford can only manage 55% with it's catalytic converter?

I'm not sure how these min and max burn rates are calculated, but I have personally run full loads of oak (420k BTU per load, at 85% eff) thru my two BK Ashfords as fast as 8 hours, and as slow as 36 hours. That's 4.5:1, by my figuring, a range covering 12k - 53k BTU/hr.

I would guess that they might burn down a full load in under 6 hours, averaging roughly 70k BTU, but I'd never want to run my stoves that hard. Furthermore, thanks to the thermostat, that's a pretty even 12k BTU/hr, over the full duration of the burn.