Smoking Hearthstone Homestead

[nwayman]

I have a newly installed Hearthstone Homestead woodstove and am struggling with smoke piling out when loading, as well as low burn temps.

Here is some background:
It is installed in our family room, main floor, in a 1988 house that is very well insulated (8" walls/Andersen Windows). The chimney comes vertical out of the stove, then turns a 45° angle, then a 90° (to go outside), then another 90° (to go vertical), then (2) 45° angles to get around the eave of the roof. The outside sections are Metalbestos and the inside sections are double-wall. The overall height is good, as it carries up past the second story of the house, then another 8' or so past the edge of the roof. I know it is good to the rule of thumb about the distance to the nearest obstruction, etc. but have not measured the overall height. The stove and chimney were professionally installed.

I have been lighting fires in it for a week or so and have never struggled so bad to get/keep them going in my past! I have burned wood for many years using standard iron woodstoves as well as a catalytic Fireplace Xtroidinaire (loved it!) so I am comfortable with using wood. The wood I am currently using is old dry cherry, ash, and maple, if anything it may verge on the 'too-old' side not too green. I have been careful not to use any punky stuff to make sure that is not an issue.

I think I am fighting a chimney draft issue but would like some input/advice. I leave the door on the stove cracked to try and get a good rolling fire going but even that seems to have a more minimal effect than I would expect. I do not get smoke pouring out as long as the door is only open 1-2 inches but beyond that here she comes! We have a Chimgard stove thermometer installed in the chimney just above the stove outlet and I think I have seen in touch 350° once or twice but that is it. My manual states the surface temp on the stove can get to 600° before overfiring, how does that correlate to the chimney temp? The stove will draft properly when the temp on the dial is at 250-300° or so (and not smoke in the house with the door open), but it is very hard to get it there and keep it there, so it smokes a lot in the meantime trying to tend the fire. The air supply is wide open, I have cracked a door or window to make sure we are feeding enough input air, but none of this seems to matter much. It just seems to me like the fire is not getting enough air to really get going. Once I do get a good bed of coals it is very easy to draw it back down by placing a single split piece on the bed, so I am forever fighting adding wood but trying to not kill the fire.

Help! I love the stove, it heats the house nice and has a great even heat level, but I don't have time to fiddle with any fire I start for the first 1-2 hours to try and get a large batch of coals going. I expect to tend it but shouldn't have to leave the door open for the first hour or two.

 

[nwayman]

Question on intake passages. The damper lever on this stove is on the lower left side, I can feel/see that it is clear right where the damper opens/closes the intake. Does it run from that point right to the square piece in the bottom front of the firebox? Also, it appears there is another intake at the back of the stove? Any help you can offer on location to check for blockages would be appreciated.

I will check that on the chimney - good suggestion. It should be okay, brand new install (this summer) with cap, but I will have a look anyway.

One other note - I spoke to my dealer and they said it is the differential temp that is the issue, once it gets colder it should draft just fine. I understand this but of course I like to light a fire after work when the temp is still not bad, so it can heat the house as it is starting to cool off outside. They also said to make sure I had good hot starter fires (no kidding).

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Edit- I responded to the wrong thread here...

I think that most stoves like the door open up to a couple inches- the air is drawn in quickly. As soon as it gets too open, then it also becomes a convenient way for smoke to get out rather than the chimney.

It sounds like a lot of pipe and bends to warm up. More bends needs more height as well. Open all air controls and get a small hot fire going with just kindling to warm up the pipe before adding splits. Check the manual on air controls- each brand is different.

 

[nwayman]

Read it twice. Did smaller break-in fires. Found no reference to intakes other than adding an outside intake, which is how I found the one at the back.

 

[BrotherBart]

What is the outside height of that chimney? That many elbows is drastically reducing the effective height and lousy draft is the result. The rule of thumb is that beyond two 90 degree turns each additional 90 reduces effective height by 10 percent and 45's reduce it by 5 percent each. Myself I consider the first two 90's to reduce it by at least 10% themselves.

 

[mike in ct]

i am a mason by trade and i can tell you this, where you say it is a" good overall height", this is what is required for code.
a chimney is to be 3'ft over peak of house unless it comes up on the bottom of a roof line or eave as you stated yours does.... in that case you are to proceed "upwards" past bottom of roof until you reach a point at which center of stack is 10 'ft away from roof, and then continue an additional 3'ft past that point....that is code in ct.....another thing that may be hurting your draft is the elbows. everytime you put a "jog" in the stack, it slows down the draft just a little bit. there are a number of things that can reduce draft, but i would start there. you may find you have to go a bit higher than normal to get desired draft. i can tell you the metal chimneys do draft better than a masonary chimney, so you have that in your favor. also, are you sure the stack is clean from top to bottom? i cant say i dont know much about the newer catylitic stoves, someone else can help you better there. hth - mike

also i agree 100% with the other posters in reguards to outside temp being an issue. cold outside/warm inside temp is what creates draft, so if the outside /inside temp is close to the same temp, draft will be lazy to say the least

 

[nwayman]

I will get the chimney specs tonight when I get home. Please verify my calc:

1 - 45° in house: 5%
2 - 90° in / out: 10%
2 - 45° at eave: 10%
Total: 25% Reduction factor

Right?

For the height, do you use the total vertical rise from the stove to top?

Thanks!

 

[Todd]

I agree with your dealer that when it gets colder your draft will improve. These relatively warmer fall days can really create a sluggish draft, especially with all your elbows. Once your highs dip down to the 30-40's I bet your burning experience will improve. One thing that will help is burning smaller splits of 2-3" diameter. This will heat up that chimney quicker and keep it hot. When I had my Homestead I used smaller splits for shorter hot fires in the fall/spring seasons.

 

[Bill]

I believe your draft is poor also and you may need to extend the chimney. Just a few thoughts, make sure chimney is clean, check chimney cap, and make sure it's not clogged. Yes as is it gets colder draft improves.

When you first start a fire, don't use newspaper it smokes to much. Get plenty of dry kindling and use a propane torch to pre-heat the chimney to get it drawing. Load the stove with kindling and if you have a quality fire-starter like Super Cedar use that and hit it with the torch and get a hot fire going before you add splits. Make sure your fire-wood is dry.

 

[Highbeam]

The hole on the back of the stove is the air inlet (primary and secondary) that is controlled by the lever. It is where you attach the outside air snorkel, don't plug it. The homestead is a non-cat stove.

The fact that you can open a window in the house and there is no change tells us that your outside air scenario is not at fault.
The fact that you can open the stove door and smoke comes out tells us that your stove's intake ducting is not at fault.
The fact that you are using very dry wood split small and still having smoke backups tell us that the wood is not at fault.

You have a chimney problem. Insufficient draft. It could be due to all of the bends, it could be due to the warmer outside air temps, it could be due to a plugged mesh chimney cap, a bird nest in the chimney, insufficient length, or a combination of all.

As I recall, the Hearthstone stove manual has a pretty long section about bends and pipe length. I believe that all of your bends are the big issue made much worse by the warm outside air temps.

 

[Todd]

I'm pretty sure that hole in the back of the stove is only for secondary air. At least it was on my Homestead. The primary air is underneath on the left side. Just follow the air intake lever and you will find the primary air intake. Check them both for obstructions, I found one of the bolts were in the way of the slide on mine and had to grind it down to get full movement.

 

[Highbeam]

Cripes Todd, you got me, I was picturing my heritage which must be setup a bit differently. I still wouldn't block the holes. Nat needs all the air he can get.

 

[nwayman]

Update:
Checked for water at tee last night, none present, no blockages. Checked chimney height, approximately 20' total vertical rise from stove. Will snap photo tonight, the more I read the more concerned I am about the 45° elbow and 45° pipe run right out of the top of the stove coupled with all of the other restrictions. We are sitting at about 2000' altitude, so that isn't helping either. The manual states 13' minimum and 30' maximum height. Knowing this, on a normal install I would want about a 18' chimney to be safe, but when factored down for elbows & elevation I think an extra 3-5' (beyond the 20' we have) could do the trick.

So for my fire last night:
Split wood into smaller splits. Stacked good fire/kindling in-place, newspaper starter down in, fatwood stick to help, and lit her off. Newspaper went out before fire would start. Finally decided to do the torch trick Smokey recommended and got her going. The fire grew well and with the smaller splits got going without any real tending. She got good & hot and I was set for the night. Saw the dial hit 400° or so, nice heat and secondary burn! Once going, the stove drafts fine.

So, what I plan to do is to obtain the stove thermometer temperature at which it drafts properly, to help encourage my dealer that it isn't right. I am not a believer in lighting with a propane torch all year and I should not have to fight the smoke intrusion when tending a young fire. Any other thoughts?

Thanks for all of the input - I have learned a ton!

 

[M1sterM]

Update:
Checked for water at tee last night, none present, no blockages. Checked chimney height, approximately 20' total vertical rise from stove. Will snap photo tonight, the more I read the more concerned I am about the 45° elbow and 45° pipe run right out of the top of the stove coupled with all of the other restrictions. We are sitting at about 2000' altitude, so that isn't helping either. The manual states 13' minimum and 30' maximum height. Knowing this, on a normal install I would want about a 18' chimney to be safe, but when factored down for elbows & elevation I think an extra 3-5' (beyond the 20' we have) could do the trick.

So for my fire last night:
Split wood into smaller splits. Stacked good fire/kindling in-place, newspaper starter down in, fatwood stick to help, and lit her off. Newspaper went out before fire would start. Finally decided to do the torch trick Smokey recommended and got her going. The fire grew well and with the smaller splits got going without any real tending. She got good & hot and I was set for the night. Saw the dial hit 400° or so, nice heat and secondary burn! Once going, the stove drafts fine.

So, what I plan to do is to obtain the stove thermometer temperature at which it drafts properly, to help encourage my dealer that it isn't right. I am not a believer in lighting with a propane torch all year and I should not have to fight the smoke intrusion when tending a young fire. Any other thoughts?

Thanks for all of the input - I have learned a ton!

One suggestion for you, since I have the same issue of escaping smoke here in "central, NY" during this shoulder season. I am a relatively new convert to "top-down" fire building, since that allows me to to light the kindling (and a small chunk of sawdust firestarter), and then close the door and leave it closed. I fill the box (ESW 30-NCP) with splits, and then make a small pile of kindling and firestarter on top of all that. Once it's lit, I close the door and leave the air control all the way open. I can generally close the air supply down after 10-15 minutes, and never have to open the door to supplement the air at all. My chimney has pretty poor draft (at least until warmed up), and this technique really helps as it avoids smoking out the house.

The only thing I have to worry about with this method is forgetting to check on the fire at 10-15 minutes...I waited until 35 minutes a couple days ago, and the flue temp was well over 500 degrees and climbing!

 

[tutu_sue]

I don't know if this will help it's from the Hearthstone site: (broken link removed to http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/customer-resources/faq#faq31)

Was there a damper installed anywhere in the flue?

One more thing, I remember a while back someone's new Hearthstone had loose ashpan bolts, maybe you can check those.

 

[pumiglk]

I would try the top down method but bag the newspaper and use supercedars (these are really great) or another firestarter type product. there is a lot less smoke than newspaper. I would crack the door ever so slightly - the warm burn emission should still prefer to move up rather than out and it will give plenty of air to burn hot, without the smoldering paper there should be a lot less smoke and a hotter burn, both will help. The top down also prevents collapse (which will really throw some smoke). One more note - I found that this method woks much better with these artifical log products than with newspaper so if you tried it before with newspaper and were unhappy - i would give another try with some of the superstarter.

 

[kniffin50]

I just bought a Homestead,installed it and I to have notice the same issuses.But I know that when it gets colder out it will get better.So for right now i'm burning the insert upstairs.
Rusty

 

[nwayman]

Great input, guys! I like the looks of the top down method. I will give it a try tonight! Had a bit of the collapse issue last night so I will enjoy this method for sure.

No damper in the chimney and no loose bolts.

Good draft for me results at about 200° chimney temp with outside temp of about 50° or so. Still not acceptable; although I can hopefully get a good fire going without smoking using top down method and good firestarter, what about stoking back up in the morning? There are just too many times and reasons to open the door with the chimney temp below that point to make this an acceptable draft.

Couple other questions for you guru's:

I am going to discuss adding some chimney with my installer. Any recommendations on how much to add? I currently have about 6' above the roof on the eave side, with supports running. I am expecting we can safely add 3-5' without running additional supports, will have installer verify that. But is that going to be enough to jump start my draft?

On the soap stone - I have one side piece that is cracked along one of the natural veins, about 1/2 of the stone or so. It does not leak, and the stove was conditioned properly and conservatively so I am confident I did not cause it due to improper burning. Is this normal? Something I should be concerned about?

Thanks again for the insight!

 

[Highbeam]

When talking to the installer, perhaps see if he can remove that last pair of bends in the chimney where you jog around the eve and pass straight up through the roof there. Removing those bends has the same effect as adding length. I would venture to say that most installations that run up the outside of the house do not jog around the eve and instead go right through the overhanging roof to maintain a straight shot.

In the morning when you need to stoke the fire back up you are worried about smoking the room out. Well, at this phase in the fire there shouldn't be any smoke to spill. Just coals if you're lucky.

Another fella had a crack in his homestead recently and made a thread about it. The resolution was to tell your dealer and get it noted. Some cracks are normal and some are reason for warranty replacement. A poor draft in the chimney is not made any worse by leaks in the stove.

 

[paulie]

Nat, I too have the same stove and had the same problem...not as bad it sounds, but the same smoke problem. It was solved with a change to piping ! you have a draft problem!! I would get away from all those bends. Highbeam is right, either go through that roof line, or go past it and strait up. you can look under the left side and see if your air is functioning right. And small cracks "minor" are normal in soapstone.

 

[nwayman]

Headed to talk to dealer today about re-doing the chimney at the roof line. Been looking at it and thinking about it and I agree - especially with those bends near the top - we are killing any air momentum gained up to that point. I am sure it will be an interesting conversation with them.

Also, found an interesting article on the web (old but still pertinent) about cold air ducts, etc. Thought I would attach the link to it for anyone interested in reading. It is pretty good stuff for us geek engineers and other technically inclined folks!

http://heatkit.com/docs/airreq.PDF

 

[nickie]

Thanks for the replies. I was just gonna ask the same question regarding this issue i'm having rn.


Regards,
Nick
(broken link removed)