2023/24 VC owners thread general discussion

[arnermd]

Fired my stove up for the first time this season a couple days ago. Got the CAT to about 650 then it started to decline and level out at about 450-500. On a reload it did climb up to about 900, but that was only because some wood fell right in front of the inlet and it was shooting flames back to the secondary. Once that piece burned up it dropped back below active again. A new CAT is on the way from Condar.

try the vinegar wash.... worked for my metal cat. Been a couple weeks now and still going....

 

[arnermd]

Have you tried the no bark idea? I'm curious if you see any difference in cat behavior.

No have not tried it, my cat has been behaving for the most part because of the way I am running it.... Maybe this weekend.

 

[arnermd]

Agreed. That being said about 3 3” splits is the max I load due to puffing issues. I’m hoping to do away with with clay tile liner and go to 8” ss next year to get my draft up where it should be. Right now I only load enough wood that the cat can’t go nuclear. The the addition secondary control I’ll at least be able to load it a little heavier. And rather than mod the oem damper plate I will take it to work and have the metal shop punch a new one out off ss and play with it. If it doesn’t work out I can just put the original back on.

Regarding the puffing issue 95% of it is when I’m burning 4 year old pine. Due to the weather around here it’s not as dry as you’d think but it still off gases quick.

I was raised to never burn pine except in a campfire..... Maybe that's misguided.

I was always taught the pine pitch was hard to burn clean and volatile (burns off quick), maybe that's not a concern with a cat? Or maybe that's why you are having issues? Have you tried a load of hardwood?

 

[Rusty18]

I was raised to never burn pine except in a campfire..... Maybe that's misguided.

I was always taught the pine pitch was hard to burn clean and volatile (burns off quick), maybe that's not a concern with a cat? Or maybe that's why you are having issues? Have you tried a load of hardwood?

Several threads on hearth about burning pine, that’s all some people have in their part of the world. As long as it is dry my stove burns fine…it’s just really hard for me to get (keep) pine dry. Almost seems like it will soak up moisture out of the air to the points it’s almost as wet as when cut. There are a lot of people around here who won’t burn it in a stove either. I’ve burnt 4-5 cords over the last 4 years and the chimney doesn’t lie. Couple cup fills of brown powder.
All that being said I don’t spend time processing pine if there’s other species to be had. I have my current pile of pine due to that was what the previous owners had let grow up towering over the house so I had to drop them anyways.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Im with the "Pine is fine group" I burned some yesterday afternoon. The BTUs of pine are great.. but unlike oak ,doesn't coal very well. Pine is fine it just needs to be seasoned..

Pine got a bad wrap years ago because of chimney fires.. most settlers burned green wood.. green pine makes alot of creosote

 

[arnermd]

Ok I learned something new..... thanks.

I do not have too much pine around me, mostly oak and standing dead ash....

 

[Eman85]

For your guys that have really active cats,
Have you considered removing the bark from your splits? This has become a norm for our house hold. If the bark doesn't fall off the wood when we split it to dry, we try and knock the bark off outside before we move our supply inside for the week. It seems to really cut down on the smoke in the firebox.
But I'm also not monitoring my cat temps, I just listen for it to whoosh and buzz while I keep an eye on the flu temp.

A lot of my wood has no bark, never really seemed to make any difference.
You say you're not monitoring cat temps?? By the time I would get to whoosh it was too late to control and the cat would be headed for the moon. Whoosh was bad, getting near cast iron warping.

 

[sargeott]

A lot of my wood has no bark, never really seemed to make any difference.
You say you're not monitoring cat temps?? By the time I would get to whoosh it was too late to control and the cat would be headed for the moon. Whoosh was bad, getting near cast iron warping.

Correct, I don't have a cat thermometer. I also don't have a super strong draft so in my case when the cat kicks off and I hear that whoosh, it only lasts about 10 minutes, the flu jumps about 100degrees and hangs there for the majority of the burn.

Also on the pine topic
We have mostly pine and fir in my area. Lots and lots of old tree farm properties where I live. My land also has oak, black walnut ( which is a bear to process), alder. So I burn a wide mix through the season.
We get lots of blow downs so I process what comes down and drop the pine and fir trees because it's everywhere up here.
We also burn 24x7 and I have to clean my chimney a few times a year.

 

[AsylumResident]

Interesting discovery today. I have been working on the assumption that the primary air lever moved the air flap in direct correlation with the position of the lever. What I mean is, when the lever is all the way forward, the air is completely open. When the level is all the way to the back, the air flap is completely closed. When the level is pointing straight down, the air flap is half open. Today when I was playing around with the lever I noticed this isn't the case.

I had the primary air lever all the way open and while I was somewhat slowly moving the lever back to the closed position I noticed I could hear the ting of the flapper closing before the lever was all the way moved to the back position. I did this a few times and realized that the flapper was basically closed when the lever was pointing straight down. I had believed that this was the 1/2 closed (or half open) position. Basically the lever all the way forward to straight down is the full motion of the flapper.

Two questions, does that sound right? That isn't much lever movement for overall air control. And, my stove is hot, would that change the range of motion in the correlation of the lever and flapper?

 

[Rusty18]

Interesting discovery today. I have been working on the assumption that the primary air lever moved the air flap in direct correlation with the position of the lever. What I mean is, when the lever is all the way forward, the air is completely open. When the level is all the way to the back, the air flap is completely closed. When the level is pointing straight down, the air flap is half open. Today when I was playing around with the lever I noticed this isn't the case.

I had the primary air lever all the way open and while I was somewhat slowly moving the lever back to the closed position I noticed I could hear the ting of the flapper closing before the lever was all the way moved to the back position. I did this a few times and realized that the flapper was basically closed when the lever was pointing straight down. I had believed that this was the 1/2 closed (or half open) position. Basically the lever all the way forward to straight down is the full motion of the flapper.

Two questions, does that sound right? That isn't much lever movement for overall air control. And, my stove is hot, would that change the range of motion in the correlation of the lever and flapper?

The thermostat should have the flap more closed at any given position when the stove is hot vs cold. As the stove cools the thermostat should open to allow more air in to bring the temp back up. Being full closed when the lever is at the half way mark doesn’t sound right though even if the stove is hot.

Now I’m gonna have to do a better inspection on mine. All I’ve verified is that it goes closed but I’ve never checked where it actually closes at when the stove is hot. Straight down on the lever is about as low as I can turn mine without starting back puffs/stalling the primary. Wanna place bets on what I find…

 

[AsylumResident]

The thermostat should have the flap more closed at any given position when the stove is hot vs cold. As the stove cools the thermostat should open to allow more air in to bring the temp back up. Being full closed when the lever is at the half way mark doesn’t sound right though even if the stove is hot.

Now I’m gonna have to do a better inspection on mine. All I’ve verified is that it goes closed but I’ve never checked where it actually closes at when the stove is hot. Straight down on the lever is about as low as I can turn mine without starting back puffs/stalling the primary. Wanna place bets on what I find…

I've been running today with my new "half way" and it makes much more sense now the way the stove is responding. Maybe there is something I'm missing here but I wish I wouldn't have made this assumption upfront.

Let me know what you find.

 

[Kevin Weis]

To my knowledge on all VC stoves the primary flap position is controlled by a bi-metal thermostat. This means with the air lever is the same position the flap will be in different positions when the stove is cold vs hot. Probably the the best position to make an adjustment is with the stove warm adjust the chain or cable so the flap is just seated. It seems that VC makes this adjustment with the stove cold. Which means with the lever half way the primary air may be just barely open. Maybe this is the way they want it? Just my two cents
.

 

[arnermd]

Flapper closed at 50% air setting with stove hot is consistent with my observations. As stove heats up the bimetal will close the flapper, essentially lengthening the cable.

Flapper should be closed with stove cold. It does not say but I assume it is adjusted with the lever all the way back....
From the VC rebuild manual for Defiant 2n1 model 1975

 

[AsylumResident]

Flapper closed at 50% air setting with stove hot is consistent with my observations. As stove heats up the bimetal will close the flapper, essentially lengthening the cable.

Flapper should be closed with stove cold. It does not say but I assume it is adjusted with the lever all the way back....
From the VC rebuild manual for Defiant 2n1 model 1975
View attachment 320109

View attachment 320108

I knew this would be the case to some degree but I never would have thought I would lose half of the air control while the stove is in operation. This is a very small detail that, yesterday, made a big difference in how the stove operated for me.

 

[arnermd]

I knew this would be the case to some degree but I never would have thought I would lose half of the air control while the stove is in operation. This is a very small detail that, yesterday, made a big difference in how the stove operated for me.

Why did that knowledge make a difference in how the stove operated? Did you change something? Or just in your understanding of what was happening?

For reference: I notice a distinct difference in operation below and above 50% air. Above 50% I generally have some yellow flames, below 50% the active flames almost entirely go away and I get the auroras, very lazy flames or just an orange glow at the bottom.

Point is: I think our stoves are behaving very much alike.

P.S. Another thing I have been wondering..... is it possible for the draft to actually suck that flapper open a little? My gut says no, it is too heavy and the area is not very large... but I am not sure.

 

[Kevin Weis]

I think, it is near impossible for a draft to suck the primary air flap open. The fire would be going crazy with that much draw on it. Not saying it can't appen though.

 

[AsylumResident]

Why did that knowledge make a difference in how the stove operated? Did you change something? Or just in your understanding of what was happening?

For reference: I notice a distinct difference in operation below and above 50% air. Above 50% I generally have some yellow flames, below 50% the active flames almost entirely go away and I get the auroras, very lazy flames or just an orange glow at the bottom.

Point is: I think our stoves are behaving very much alike.

P.S. Another thing I have been wondering..... is it possible for the draft to actually suck that flapper open a little? My gut says no, it is too heavy and the area is not very large... but I am not sure.

50% closed to 0% closed are basically the same thing for when the stove is hot. So when I do a hot reload and set the air lever to the halfway point, thinking I'm getting some air in, I'm basically setting the air to 0% causing less primary burn and more smoking with the bypass closed. I don't want the flapper fully open, I want the flapper half closed so I still get some decent primary burn but not too much. And I don't want the flapper closed because then I'm not getting enough primary burn and too much smoking which eventually leads to my cat skyrocketing. At this point I understand even with the flapper closed there is still primary air coming in through in the EPA hole.

In the other thread I mentioned how running the stove hotter has been giving me better burns and it has been more manageable. This is what made me look at the flapper and really see what the position of the flapper was is correlation to the lever travel. This is when I found that when the stove is hot, the lever in the 75% position actually has the flapper about half closed, and lever at 50% position (pointing straight down) has the flapper fully closed or just barely cracked open.

So yesterday I ran my stove with this in mind. Since I started burning, my glass goes black if the air setting is at 50%. The way I have run it up to this point is get my stove up to temp, close the bypass, get the cat up to my operating temp, and cut the air to 50%. Again, unless I'm missing something, when I thought I was closing the air down 'some', I was actually closing it all the way down. If there was enough good primary burn before this point, I shut the air down to 0%, causing much less primary burn, now making more smoke, and higher cat temps on the back end.

I ran using my "new" 50% and had no black glass, just a light haze. My cat stayed well within range and my STT's were more responsive to my air lever adjustments. It was doing what I wanted it to do and what I have been expecting it to do. This is all based on a hot stove that's been running and been up to temp for awhile. How would this differ from a cold start? I would assume the flapper position would be more align with the lever position. So from a cold start I, again, would assume it not being the same.

 

[AsylumResident]

P.S. Another thing I have been wondering..... is it possible for the draft to actually suck that flapper open a little? My gut says no, it is too heavy and the area is not very large... but I am not sure.

I would hope, deep deep down inside of me, that the answer to this would be no.

 

[arnermd]

So just some quick math...

Assuming:

• Flapper area = 2" x 4" = 8 in^2
• Draft = 0.1 iwc = .0036 psi

Force acting on flapper would be = 0.03 lbs.... about 5.5 pennies...

 

[arnermd]

50% closed to 0% closed are basically the same thing for when the stove is hot. So when I do a hot reload and set the air lever to the halfway point, thinking I'm getting some air in, I'm basically setting the air to 0% causing less primary burn and more smoking with the bypass closed. I don't want the flapper fully open, I want the flapper half closed so I still get some decent primary burn but not too much. And I don't want the flapper closed because then I'm not getting enough primary burn and too much smoking which eventually leads to my cat skyrocketing. At this point I understand even with the flapper closed there is still primary air coming in through in the EPA hole.

In the other thread I mentioned how running the stove hotter has been giving me better burns and it has been more manageable. This is what made me look at the flapper and really see what the position of the flapper was is correlation to the lever travel. This is when I found that when the stove is hot, the lever in the 75% position actually has the flapper about half closed, and lever at 50% position (pointing straight down) has the flapper fully closed or just barely cracked open.

So yesterday I ran my stove with this in mind. Since I started burning, my glass goes black if the air setting is at 50%. The way I have run it up to this point is get my stove up to temp, close the bypass, get the cat up to my operating temp, and cut the air to 50%. Again, unless I'm missing something, when I thought I was closing the air down 'some', I was actually closing it all the way down. If there was enough good primary burn before this point, I shut the air down to 0%, causing much less primary burn, now making more smoke, and higher cat temps on the back end.

I ran using my "new" 50% and had no black glass, just a light haze. My cat stayed well within range and my STT's were more responsive to my air lever adjustments. It was doing what I wanted it to do and what I have been expecting it to do. This is all based on a hot stove that's been running and been up to temp for awhile. How would this differ from a cold start? I would assume the flapper position would be more align with the lever position. So from a cold start I, again, would assume it not being the same.

Yeah so that all makes sense and is consistent with my experience, running higher primary airflow settings makes the cat temps more manageable, usually.....

Black glass under 50% is also what I would consider normal. A lot of folks say they can burn it off in the morning by increasing air, I have had mixed results.... sometimes it takes a few hot burns to clean it off, or I break out the elbow grease....

I think you know this but.... your "flapper closed" lever position will vary depending on the temp of the stove because you have the bimetal coil in there adjusting for temps. A hot stove will close with lever more forward, a cold stove should not close till all the way back.

I suspect the more successful burners among us observe the flame and how active it is when dialing in the air. Once you do it consistently 50 times you just "know" what position to put the lever in.... I am not there yet, it has only been 10 years.

 

[AsylumResident]

Yeah so that all makes sense and is consistent with my experience, running higher primary airflow settings makes the cat temps more manageable, usually.....

Black glass under 50% is also what I would consider normal. A lot of folks say they can burn it off in the morning by increasing air, I have had mixed results.... sometimes it takes a few hot burns to clean it off, or I break out the elbow grease....

I think you know this but.... your "flapper closed" lever position will vary depending on the temp of the stove because you have the bimetal coil in there adjusting for temps. A hot stove will close with lever more forward, a cold stove should not close till all the way back.

I suspect the more successful burners among us observe the flame and how active it is when dialing in the air. Once you do it consistently 50 times you just "know" what position to put the lever in.... I am not there yet, it has only been 10 years.

I agree overall. I knew the flapper (precise terminology) position and lever would vary because of the bimetal but I'm just very surprised it was cut in half.

Maybe I shouldn't have been so surprised and surmised this initially but here I am. Like I said a few weeks ago, I'm never bored with this stove.

 

[Rusty18]

Well this is the 6th winter with this stove (supplemental heat, mostly weekends) and I have finally achieved a burn with the air all the way down and no back puffing. Burning maple I css the first year I lived here so it is bone dry (on a rack up off the ground single row top covered). Box is half full, running 350 stt and cat just took its bump to 1483 and is trending down.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Well this is the 6th winter with this stove (supplemental heat, mostly weekends) and I have finally achieved a burn with the air all the way down and no back puffing. Burning maple I css the first year I lived here so it is bone dry (on a rack up off the ground single row top covered). Box is half full, running 350 stt and cat just took its bump to 1483 and is trending down.

I find the key to be really thick splits

 

[Dobish]

Just wanted to pop in and say hi, its been a while. This year I added a 4ft section of stove pipe to my chimney so that I could see if it helped the draft. I wish I had done it sooner since that extra couple of feet really helped my draft and allows me to have more control over the air flow. I have noticed that my cat has been hovering around 1100-1400 as opposed to previous years where it would only get that high with a stove full of locust. I will probably have to do a teardown and rebuilt to put in some new gaskets one of these years. Its been relatively warm this year so far, so I am going on just under 1/2 cord burned. Started drawing up the wood shed plans for next year too.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Just wanted to pop in and say hi, its been a while. This year I added a 4ft section of stove pipe to my chimney so that I could see if it helped the draft. I wish I had done it sooner since that extra couple of feet really helped my draft and allows me to have more control over the air flow. I have noticed that my cat has been hovering around 1100-1400 as opposed to previous years where it would only get that high with a stove full of locust. I will probably have to do a teardown and rebuilt to put in some new gaskets one of these years. Its been relatively warm this year so far, so I am going on just under 1/2 cord burned. Started drawing up the wood shed plans for next year too.

Welcome back.. its nice to see you again..