2023/24 VC owners thread general discussion

[GrumpyDad]

My Duantless doesnt have a bi-metal flap controller. The air control lever on the right side controls a flap on the lowest rear part of the stove (where the external fresh air pipe mount goes). That's it.
If these stoves used to come with a bi-metal thermastatic control, it was removed in production in my version.

I dont know what is inside the dauntless but this brochure statement would suggest there are some sort of thermostatic controls.
THERMOSTATICALLY CONTROLLED COMBUSTION
Our unique, built-in thermostat requires no electricity and automatically adjusts the required air for combustion. Just set the stove for the heat output you want and let the thermostat do the rest. The result—longer, more even heat.

Continuous Combustion Controltm (C3)Our exclusive C3 technology is tuned to provide optimal burn throughout the life of your fire. From startup to last coals, C3technology manages all the give-and-take for you, automatically adjusting and delivering just the right amount of air to optimize efficiency and heat output. This heat activated technology requires no electricity or manual air controls. The result – the most consistent, easiest burn you will experience.

I have to laugh at that last statement a bit. If they consider the dauntless easy, Id hate to see hard.

I do hear some tinking sound from time to time as the stove is operating. There's a different sound when it's really getting hot but that's likely expansion/contraction sounds. The tinking sound will be often from time to time and it sounds like something is happening inside the stove but I dont know what.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Guys.. my suggestion ..You really should burn with the catalyst in. The mods also suggest this also.. Especially for overnight burns.. This is not controversial at all.. the stove can be run without the catalyst.. but not this way.. Run your stove with the catalyst..

 

[arnermd]

Guys.. my suggestion ..You really should burn with the catalyst in. The mods also suggest this also.. Especially for overnight burns.. This is not controversial at all.. the stove can be run without the catalyst.. but not this way.. Run your stove with the catalyst..

I think I know what you are getting at, but for the newer folks, can you clarify what you mean by saying "but not this way"?
I suspect you are referring to running very low air settings / low griddle temps without a cat?

If so, I agree. You are asking for a lot of buildup in the stack due to incomplete combustion.

This is also why the non cat curves are so inefficient at low burn rates.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

I think I know what you are getting at, but for the newer folks, can you clarify what you mean by saying "but not this way"?
I suspect you are referring to running very low air settings / low griddle temps without a cat?

If so, I agree. You are asking for a lot of buildup in the stack due to incomplete combustion.

This is also why the non cat curves are so inefficient at low burn rates.

Thanks for posting.. Yes..

This is exactly what Im talking about I will expand on this later today.

I did do a detailed post last year of burning without the catalyst in. I can be done safely.

One day Im going to hit you up when Im in your area.. you can show me your gear first hand ..

 

[GrumpyDad]

I have run without the cat and as best I can recall there was not a huge difference in performance. Secondary temps were lower but still can be pretty hot (>1100 as I recall) but it took a lot longer to get there and required a healthy primary burn. I believe all the larger VC stoves (Defiants, Encores,) were designed for secondary combustion (cat or non cat). The cat just gets you lower temp secondary light off and more complete combustion.

I don't claim to be an expert but the shape of the curves makes sense to me, efficiency is a function of flue gas temp and unburned fuel in the exhaust.

With a non cat stove:

• low firing rate a larger amount of unburned fuel is going up the stack = Low eff
• As firing rate increases more complete combustion occurs = better eff
• At some point you get complete combustion but stack temps are high so a larger amount of heat goes up the stack = declining eff.

With a Cat stove:

• Low firing rate still produces complete combustion (because of the cat) and exhaust temp is low (due to low velocity of exhaust gas, has resonance time to transfer heat to the house)
• As firing rate increase you still have complete combustion but gas velocity is increasing and less resonance time for heat exchange (more heat goes up the stack) = declining eff.

So why do I run with a cat:

• I am predominantly concerned with creosote build up in my stack. I clean once a year and do not want to get on the roof midwinter to do it again.... I need to make some mods to my stack so I can clean from bottom.... On the to do list.
• I am not too concerned with efficiency provided I get 8 hour burns, minimum. Lugging less wood around is preferable but not critical. Being able to run clean at low firing rates is nice in the shoulder seasons for sure.

do you clean through the damper or from the top?

 

[arnermd]

Thanks for posting.. Yes..

This is exactly what Im talking about I will expand on this later today.

I did do a detailed post last year of burning without the catalyst in. I can be done safely.

One day Im going to hit you up when Im in your area.. you can show me your gear first hand ..

anytime, would welcome the opportunity.

 

[arnermd]

do you clean through the damper or from the top?

From the top.... I can't do it from the bottom, I need to modify my setup to do it from the bottom.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

I think I know what you are getting at, but for the newer folks, can you clarify what you mean by saying "but not this way"?
I suspect you are referring to running very low air settings / low griddle temps without a cat?

If so, I agree. You are asking for a lot of buildup in the stack due to incomplete combustion.

This is also why the non cat curves are so inefficient at low burn rates.

Im going to start a new thread.. I think this topic needs its own thread and Im not really interested in getting the mod upset.. this is just a general BSing thread

Please add your thoughts I'm putting it together now

 

[sargeott]

Im going to start a new thread.. I think this topic needs its own thread and Im not really interested in getting the mod upset.. this is just a general BSing thread

Please add your thoughts I'm putting it together now

Looking forward to the new thread.
I for one, am glad I have the cat. I dont operated my stove so it maximizes the cat temps, I run it so the house stays warm. This may be hotter initial temps on the stove--- Ss about 550-650.
Then as the house gets to the right temp, I'll dial back the air inlet primary controls with the cat engaged and add wood as needed and will only mess with air inlet to keep the stove running.
The cat just gives me peace of mind that my pipe stays cleaner than if I didn't have it.
It's rare I need to run this stove full tilt boogie to keep the house warm, but its an old cabin and sometimes it does happen.
To keep the cabin anywhere from 70-75 inside, with temps in the 30s outside, usually my stove top temp likes to be about 400deg F. this means my flue surface temps on a single wall pipe show about 250deg F. I see zero smoke out of the chimney cap like this.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

Finally a stretch of cold I can burn for a few days. It is so much more enjoyable to run the stove for days at a time instead of cold starts every late afternoon/night

The only downside here is it's snowing so golf season is probably over. Time for the snowboard to come out

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Finally a stretch of cold I can burn for a few days. It is so much more enjoyable to run the stove for days at a time instead of cold starts every late afternoon/night

The only downside here is it's snowing so golf season is probably over. Time for the snowboard to come out

Agreed.. cold starts are lame.. I like dropping wood on coals.. This definitely beats the 90 degree days of july

 

[GrumpyDad]

Finally a stretch of cold I can burn for a few days. It is so much more enjoyable to run the stove for days at a time instead of cold starts every late afternoon/night

The only downside here is it's snowing so golf season is probably over. Time for the snowboard to come out

Nothing wrong with the snowboard making it's appearance. Although I'm hellbent on switching mine out this year. I bought into the idea of a hybrid camber with magnatraction. It's way too grabby and squirrelly on the ice coast.

 

[JohnDaileyNH]

Nothing wrong with the snowboard making it's appearance. Although I'm hellbent on switching mine out this year. I bought into the idea of a hybrid camber with magnatraction. It's way too grabby and squirrelly on the ice coast.

I have a hybrid rocker and a hybrid camber. I use the rocker in powder and the camber as the primary. It's a never summer proto. Thing is awesome and rips hard. Do somewhat want to get a full camber for the ice. But it's nice have the hybrid with the playability. Impossible to catch and edge and they move so easy through the trees

 

[Reckless]

What VC stove do you gave.. I forget.

Encore 2550

 

[Rusty18]

So I have a summer from hell commissioning a bunch of new epa air pollution controls at work…a big part of which was a 100’ tall 18’ diameter thermal oxidier. It came with all the bells and whistles of fisher valves/delta v dcs…the works. It has been a long summer. Anyhow as I fired the stove up for the first fire of the season yesterday I got to thinking about how the secondary burn on this stove is very similar to the secondary combustion on the new TO and when it gets hot we add air to cool it down (quench). So I ran a test on the stove last night and again a half hour ago. Stove was cruising at STT 450 CAT 1200. I held my secondary air door open for about 5 mins and dropped cat temp over 100 degrees F. Now I’m wondering if I should knock the stop off of it and tune the thermostat to have door closed at 1100-1200 range and as it goes hotter let the door open on the downswing to quench the cat?

Or setup the watlow laying on my bench and rig to a solenoid that would just pop my secondary air to full open when I hit a preset temp limit…

 

[arnermd]

So I have a summer from hell commissioning a bunch of new epa air pollution controls at work…a big part of which was a 100’ tall 18’ diameter thermal oxidier. It came with all the bells and whistles of fisher valves/delta v dcs…the works. It has been a long summer. Anyhow as I fired the stove up for the first fire of the season yesterday I got to thinking about how the secondary burn on this stove is very similar to the secondary combustion on the new TO and when it gets hot we add air to cool it down (quench). So I ran a test on the stove last night and again a half hour ago. Stove was cruising at STT 450 CAT 1200. I held my secondary air door open for about 5 mins and dropped cat temp over 100 degrees F. Now I’m wondering if I should knock the stop off of it and tune the thermostat to have door closed at 1100-1200 range and as it goes hotter let the door open on the downswing to quench the cat?

Or setup the watlow laying on my bench and rig to a solenoid that would just pop my secondary air to full open when I hit a preset temp limit…

It all depends on what side of the air fuel mixture ratio you are on. If you are burning rich (more fuel than air) then adding air will increase temps, if you are burning lean then adding more air will reduce temps (dilution of heat with excess air).

Wish i had secondary air control on my stove.....

I have experimented with a blower and some ducting to force more secondary air into my stove and it did reduce cat temps.

 

[sargeott]

Day 24 of 24x7 running the stove this season. The wife and I wanted some steaks, so we cooked a pair of 25oz rib eyes on the top of our Duantless in a skillet.
Stt 480degrees.

 

[Woodsplitter67]

Day 24 of 24x7 running the stove this season. The wife and I wanted some steaks, so we cooked a pair of 25oz rib eyes on the top of our Duantless in a skillet.
Stt 480degrees.

View attachment 319527

Bro.. thast whats up..

 

[Rusty18]

It all depends on what side of the air fuel mixture ratio you are on. If you are burning rich (more fuel than air) then adding air will increase temps, if you are burning lean then adding more air will reduce temps (dilution of heat with excess air).

Wish i had secondary air control on my stove.....

I have experimented with a blower and some ducting to force more secondary air into my stove and it did reduce cat temps.

So mine definitely runs on the fuel lean side of the curve. Did a hot reload and walked it right up to 1450 on the cat. cracked the secondary open and it cooled right down. I think I'll be modifying my secondary door so thermostat can open it on its own as cat temp goes above 1400F.

 

[arnermd]

My concern with adding additional secondary air was always what happens when you have a fuel rich burn, for example a smoky primary burn..... Adding slightly more air will make things even hotter till you get to the lean side again then adding more air will dilute the heat and make things cooler.

If I had a stove with secondary air control I would definitely try tweaking the flapper to allow for more secondary air at high temps. Just need to mindful that under certain conditions it might actually make things worse (hotter).

I have a data logger and alarms on my cat temp, I would rely on those to keep me out of trouble....

 

[sargeott]

For your guys that have really active cats,
Have you considered removing the bark from your splits? This has become a norm for our house hold. If the bark doesn't fall off the wood when we split it to dry, we try and knock the bark off outside before we move our supply inside for the week. It seems to really cut down on the smoke in the firebox.
But I'm also not monitoring my cat temps, I just listen for it to whoosh and buzz while I keep an eye on the flu temp.

 

[arnermd]

For your guys that have really active cats,
Have you considered removing the bark from your splits? This has become a norm for our house hold. If the bark doesn't fall off the wood when we split it to dry, we try and knock the bark off outside before we move our supply inside for the week. It seems to really cut down on the smoke in the firebox.
But I'm also not monitoring my cat temps, I just listen for it to whoosh and buzz while I keep an eye on the flu temp.

I have not tried that.... easy enough to try, will give it a shot.

 

[Rusty18]

My concern with adding additional secondary air was always what happens when you have a fuel rich burn, for example a smoky primary burn..... Adding slightly more air will make things even hotter till you get to the lean side again then adding more air will dilute the heat and make things cooler.

If I had a stove with secondary air control I would definitely try tweaking the flapper to allow for more secondary air at high temps. Just need to mindful that under certain conditions it might actually make things worse (hotter).

I have a data logger and alarms on my cat temp, I would rely on those to keep me out of trouble....

Agreed. That being said about 3 3” splits is the max I load due to puffing issues. I’m hoping to do away with with clay tile liner and go to 8” ss next year to get my draft up where it should be. Right now I only load enough wood that the cat can’t go nuclear. The the addition secondary control I’ll at least be able to load it a little heavier. And rather than mod the oem damper plate I will take it to work and have the metal shop punch a new one out off ss and play with it. If it doesn’t work out I can just put the original back on.

Regarding the puffing issue 95% of it is when I’m burning 4 year old pine. Due to the weather around here it’s not as dry as you’d think but it still off gases quick.

 

[NewGuy132]

Fired my stove up for the first time this season a couple days ago. Got the CAT to about 650 then it started to decline and level out at about 450-500. On a reload it did climb up to about 900, but that was only because some wood fell right in front of the inlet and it was shooting flames back to the secondary. Once that piece burned up it dropped back below active again. A new CAT is on the way from Condar.

 

[sargeott]

I have not tried that.... easy enough to try, will give it a shot.

Have you tried the no bark idea? I'm curious if you see any difference in cat behavior.