2019-20 Blaze King Performance Thread Part 1 (Everything BK)

[BKVP]

You're still keeping the King too, right?

The new King 40 will be installed shortly! We begin shipping them this week. Now 100% 2020 approved on all models....

 

[BKVP]

Ok they are similarly sized fireboxes with the princess being a little bigger. I ran them both on wood from the same load of pole wood. I had to reload at similar times. So how is that not an accurate comparison?

If you weigh the loads, burn both to zero in the same duration of time, then it's close enough!

 

[bholler]

If you weigh the loads, burn both to zero in the same duration of time, then it's close enough!

No I didn't weigh the loads I loaded both stoves full. And the princess takes a bit more wood so that should give it an edge.

 

[Woody Stover]

The new King 40 will be installed shortly! We begin shipping them this week. Now 100% 2020 approved on all models....

I'm looking forward to reading the reports, once you get some of the new ones in the field. You think you've got a winner there? I'd be interested in hearing now what some of the differences might be, from the guy who knows...I can't take the suspense.

 

[ethanhudson]

The new King 40 will be installed shortly! We begin shipping them this week. Now 100% 2020 approved on all models....

I ordered a King Ultra, got delivered to my dealer Monday, working on my hearth and install this week. Not having picked it up yet, what's the difference between it and whatever is now shipping?

 

[Highbeam]

Yes, stovetop. Some people want to act like they are all low and slow, that’s simply not true.

The bks are awesome at low and slow, if that’s enough heat for your home then you're in good hands. But the dial does indeed turn higher, much higher.

I ordered a King Ultra, got delivered to my dealer Monday, working on my hearth and install this week. Not having picked it up yet, what's the difference between it and whatever is now shipping?

The new king model's EPA test results are a bit better but who knows if the old test results were done the same way. Now boasting 1.1 gph emissions and 81% efficient if you choose to burn "crib wood" which is not firewood. Ridiculous that they even allow testing using a stack of criss cross lumber instead of firewood.

Incidentally, the Woodstock line is mostly unapproved for 2020. Not the IS or the PH.

 

[Woody Stover]

I ordered a King Ultra...what's the difference between it and whatever is now shipping?

Yes, inquiring minds want to know. But 80% of my questions on the forum go unanswered so I'm not holding my breath.

 

[kennyp2339]

I know I've bounced back and forth with liking my princess and not liking it, but in total and after reading other peoples issues with other brands I know I have a great stove, which got me thinking for those of us that burn our stoves 24/7 for 4-6 months as a main source of heat, how long do you expect to keep your current BK? I think I'm going on season 6 (can't remember) and think I can easily get 12 years out of it, fire brick still looks great, there's no warped pieces of metal or anything, just need to keep up with door, window and possibly the by-pass gaskets.

 

[webby3650]

and think I can easily get 12 years out of it

I’d sure hope so!

 

[MTASH]

I'm hoping for 20 years. At that point, hopefully I can retire somewhere closer to the Equator.

 

[ethanhudson]

Yes, inquiring minds want to know. But 80% of my questions on the forum go unanswered so I'm not holding my breath.

If I could get some clarity on this from anybody in the know, that'd be awesome. Bought a new house in July and always told myself, if I ever got a new house that I'd slap a king in that joint, and well, here I am. Just curious, what if anything, differs on the new stove BKVP mentioned are now shipping.

Pic of my hearth in process (tiled it last night) I'll follow up with a finished pic of the wall and stove installed when it's all said and done.

 

[Highbeam]

If I could get some clarity on this from anybody in the know, that'd be awesome. Bought a new house in July and always told myself, if I ever got a new house that I'd slap a king in that joint, and well, here I am. Just curious, what if anything, differs on the new stove BKVP mentioned are now shipping.

Pic of my hearth in process (tiled it last night) I'll follow up with a finished pic of the wall and stove installed when it's all said and done.

Very few members have a king due at least in part to the 8" flue requirement and nobody has a new 2020 king yet to compare.

 

[Diabel]

My input might not have too much weight in it. I burn my Princess on a very part time basis. But whenever I do, she puts a big smile on my face! At this burn rate the cat will outlive me perhaps.

 

[BKVP]

The bks are awesome at low and slow, if that’s enough heat for your home then you're in good hands. But the dial does indeed turn higher, much higher.

The new king model's EPA test results are a bit better but who knows if the old test results were done the same way. Now boasting 1.1 gph emissions and 81% efficient if you choose to burn "crib wood" which is not firewood. Ridiculous that they even allow testing using a stack of criss cross lumber instead of firewood.

Incidentally, the Woodstock line is mostly unapproved for 2020. Not the IS or the PH.

The original test method for wood heaters was OM7. It originated in Oregon in 1983 and early 1984. That method was a consensus based method which stated at the outset, emissions results are not to be interpreted as expected real world performance. State, Federal regulators, test agencies and manufacturers developed the method. The purpose of having such prescribed fuel and loading protocols was to minimize variability to the greatest degree possible. State, Federal and local incentives, often based upon emissions and efficiencies are best granted on an apples to apples comparison.

Then in 1988, EPA borrowed OM7 and made slight revisions, titling it Method 28 and establishing nation wide standards of performance. Then in 2009-2015, during promulgation of the New Source Performance Standards of 40 Part 60 CFR, state regulators started asking about real world emissions. Of course Maine did not care about emissions associated with burning Doug Fir and Washington didn't really care about Oak. Each state representative pushed their own agenda. So instead of specific fuel species, the ASTM method for testing with cord wood settled on a minimum specific gravity. When EPA has a request for certification from a wood stove manufacturer, their request goes to EPA OAQPS in Durham. Those offices review the request and INITIALLY stated that manufacturer "X" could use the ASTM method, with a slight modification. Along came manufacturer "Y" that too wanted to test with the ASTM cord wood method. However on this second request, which was approved, EPA asked for yet another change to be made in the method. This created confusion in the market place as the emissions and efficiency numbers, which are supposed to be more real world representative, really could not be compared to one another.

I personally addressed this issue with EPA and EPA agreed that the ASTM method would become the ATM (Alternative Test Method) without any changes......until such time EPA finishes the development of an FRM (Federal Reference Method). The first FRM meeting is mid January 2020. I will be there, God willing.

So how do you, a consumer know how to compare products? As I have always said and posted in these platforms, the input from fellow wood burners and this wonderful site. A person in Maine can ask about the performance/satisfaction of a consumer with a specific product burning oak. And a person in Washington can do the same with burner of Doug fir.

I can assure the accuracy of all the above as I attended every single meeting and committee since inception November 9th, 2009.

So with the introduction of the ASTM and the future FRM, comparing test results will be quite tedious. For those of you that appreciate late nights reading test reports, have at it! Or just ask your neighbor here on Hearth.com!

 

[Highbeam]

The original test method for wood heaters was OM7. It originated in Oregon in 1983 and early 1984. That method was a consensus based method which stated at the outset, emissions results are not to be interpreted as expected real world performance. State, Federal regulators, test agencies and manufacturers developed the method. The purpose of having such prescribed fuel and loading protocols was to minimize variability to the greatest degree possible. State, Federal and local incentives, often based upon emissions and efficiencies are best granted on an apples to apples comparison.

Then in 1988, EPA borrowed OM7 and made slight revisions, titling it Method 28 and establishing nation wide standards of performance. Then in 2009-2015, during promulgation of the New Source Performance Standards of 40 Part 60 CFR, state regulators started asking about real world emissions. Of course Maine did not care about emissions associated with burning Doug Fir and Washington didn't really care about Oak. Each state representative pushed their own agenda. So instead of specific fuel species, the ASTM method for testing with cord wood settled on a minimum specific gravity. When EPA has a request for certification from a wood stove manufacturer, their request goes to EPA OAQPS in Durham. Those offices review the request and INITIALLY stated that manufacturer "X" could use the ASTM method, with a slight modification. Along came manufacturer "Y" that too wanted to test with the ASTM cord wood method. However on this second request, which was approved, EPA asked for yet another change to be made in the method. This created confusion in the market place as the emissions and efficiency numbers, which are supposed to be more real world representative, really could not be compared to one another.

I personally addressed this issue with EPA and EPA agreed that the ASTM method would become the ATM (Alternative Test Method) without any changes......until such time EPA finishes the development of an FRM (Federal Reference Method). The first FRM meeting is mid January 2020. I will be there, God willing.

So how do you, a consumer know how to compare products? As I have always said and posted in these platforms, the input from fellow wood burners and this wonderful site. A person in Maine can ask about the performance/satisfaction of a consumer with a specific product burning oak. And a person in Washington can do the same with burner of Doug fir.

I can assure the accuracy of all the above as I attended every single meeting and committee since inception November 9th, 2009.

So with the introduction of the ASTM and the future FRM, comparing test results will be quite tedious. For those of you that appreciate late nights reading test reports, have at it! Or just ask your neighbor here on Hearth.com!

You sure know the history, obviously an SME, but then the bottom line is to just ask somebody? Ugh, I was hoping that we would be able to compare the listed specs from the 2020 EPA list as apples to apples. Now you are telling us that it is not so. That's terrible news.

 

[BKVP]

You sure know the history, obviously an SME, but then the bottom line is to just ask somebody? Ugh, I was hoping that we would be able to compare the listed specs from the 2020 EPA list as apples to apples. Now you are telling us that it is not so. That's terrible news.

Sorry. I have advocated to EPA to continue with the Method 28but then have a cord wood run added. This would give regulators over time the data they desire and still provide a more apples to apples comparison of performance.

 

[SpaceBus]

It sounds like testing a stove's output and emissions is very difficult to standardize. After reading the report for my particular stove I couldn't believe it even passed. The testing procedure seemed like it was designed to fail as many stoves as possible.

 

[BKVP]

It sounds like testing a stove's output and emissions is very difficult to standardize. After reading the report for my particular stove I couldn't believe it even passed. The testing procedure seemed like it was designed to fail as many stoves as possible.

The problem is when you compare test reports. One mfg actually took cord wood and for the high burn it looks like rounds split into four pieces. All loaded N/S. But the same stove low burn, the split pieces into nearly 4 x 4 dimensions and did alternating layers of N/S and E/W. When this happens, regulators get very heated....no punn.

 

[BKVP]

When I'm in Maine next time, I'd like to hold a Hearth.com conference. Find a nice pub, pull up chairs, pitcher of beer and discuss these exact topics.

 

[Woody Stover]

I ordered a King Ultra, got delivered to my dealer Monday, working on my hearth and install this week. Not having picked it up yet, what's the difference between it and whatever is now shipping?

If I could get some clarity on this from anybody in the know, that'd be awesome. Bought a new house in July and always told myself, if I ever got a new house that I'd slap a king in that joint, and well, here I am. Just curious, what if anything, differs on the new stove BKVP mentioned are now shipping.

Cricket city. Do you know for sure which model you got, the KE1107, or the "40," whatever its model number is? They only have the old version on their website. I obviously don't know, just tossing it out there but the Veep could be keeping mum due to the plant or dealers trying to clear old inventory before May, when they will no longer be able to sell them. If the new version has major improvements, that doesn't help them move old stoves. I thought Highbeam said the new stove was 3.5 cu.ft. Maybe they did that to get it to run on a 6" liner, or they made a styling change, or...? Obviously, non of the BKs (or the Woodstocks, Highbeam ) have to change anything, as they are all under the 2020 2.0 particulate limit, or am is missing something?

 

[Highbeam]

I thought Highbeam said the new stove was 3.5 cu.ft. Maybe they did that to get it to run on a 6" liner, or they made a styling change, or...? Obviously, non of the BKs (or the Woodstocks, Highbeam ) have to change anything, as they are all under the 2020 2.0 particulate limit, or am is missing something?

The new king is not 3.5 CF, still the same old 4.3 according to the EPA list. And no, still an 8" connection from what I've been told. Haven't seen a new king to know if they changed any styling, the princess update did get some styling changes but most people wouldn't notice.

The old princess, now obsolete, was sold with a non 2020 compliant emissions rating of over 2 gph.

What you might be missing is that all stoves are being retested using one or more hocus pocus methods to gain 2020 approval by the EPA. The newly tested and approved 2020 models from all brands may or may not have received modifications to gain approval. It's not always obvious since different emissions ratings may be due to test method, luck, or design changes.

 

[webby3650]

Anyone can find out at a glance if their stove is 2020. Just look at the ID tag.

 

[Woody Stover]

The new king is not 3.5 CF, still the same old 4.3 according to the EPA list.

Oh yeah, I forgot to look at the list!

What you might be missing is that all stoves are being retested using one or more hocus pocus methods to gain 2020 approval by the EPA. The newly tested and approved 2020 models from all brands may or may not have received modifications to gain approval. It's not always obvious since different emissions ratings may be due to test method, luck, or design changes.

That's what I wondered; Since they still have a crib wood test, would the stoves that previously passed that just be grandfathered in? From what you're saying, I guess not, they have to re-test anyway, or the crib wood test may have changed.

Anyone can find out at a glance if their stove is 2020. Just look at the ID tag.

Does it say something like "2020 certified," or how can you tell? I think you said you've pretty much cleared old inventory..are you now getting the new one? So the King and Princess have changed a little, you noticed anything webby? No change to the 30s, then?

 

[webby3650]

Oh yeah, I forgot to look at the list!
That's what I wondered; Since they still have a crib wood test, would the stoves that previously passed that just be grandfathered in? From what you're saying, I guess not, they have to re-test anyway, or the crib wood test may have changed.

Does it say something like "2020 certified," or how can you tell? I think you said you've pretty much cleared old inventory..are you now getting the new one? So the King and Princess have changed a little, you noticed anything webby? No change to the 30s, then?

We don’t have any 2020 stoves in really. A Jotul V3 500, some lopis, and BK inserts.
We’ve still got BK stoves on the floor, because a salesman doesn’t like them... he’s a hearthstone man! We’ve blown through the other brands for 1 reason! He has a hearthstone and loves it, his first and only stove. If the customer asked what other employees burn they'd find out that 4/5 wood burners that work there have a BK!

 

[webby3650]

I think you’ll find that a lot of hearth stores won’t do well with the 2020 changeover. Either offload stoves at a huge discount, or be stuck with them.
All the while ordering all new displays that are substantially more expensive than their predecessors. The stove industry will struggle with this transition. The new technology might be a good thing for the environment and for stove junkies like us, but overall it will kill a lot of small companies.