I got the 271 farm boss, I know it's not commercial but this thing is a Cadillac after the craftsman....I have an 8 lb maul that I've split plenty of wood with. This tree was live and has only been down for 20 hours.
2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 3 (Everything BK)
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I don't know I will try to give it a go again tomorrow.....the maul just bounced off even when I cracked it on the edge. I did start a split on one hit but it followed the grow ring where the wood had new growth in white to the older red wood on the inside.
For sure. Thermal mass is actually a hindrance to a well designed cat stove.
I had a stone stove, it was pretty. It also took forever to heat up and there was no significant benefit on the slow cool down like you might think. Just looks. No surprise that even Woodstock abandoned the material on their newer models.
BKVP
Minister of Fire
I bought a 35 ton splitter and have split cherry, walnut, black locust and a huge piece of madrone.
Split away!
Split away!
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
Can you expand on this? I guess I may just not know any better. Getting a big heavy cat stove from cold start to clean plume in regulated burner time limits took some doing, but I got it.
I kinda like that the cat stays hot enough to be active for a while after the coals burn down far enough to be not much heat output, but I can still reload and be back in the saddle pretty quickly..
Thermal mass of the stove such as a 700# stone stove, not anything bk makes. This high mass won’t keep a cat active long after the fuel runs out but it will increase warm up time.
It might help to think in extremes. A 10,000# stove will take forever to heat up and waste all your fuel through the bypassed cat. A 10# stove will heat up extremely fast and allow rapid cat engagement. Then you keep a fire burning. The fuel burning is the heat source. Thermal mass is a crutch attempting to make up for lack of burn rate control.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
@Highbeam , OK, but where is the happy medium? A 10# cat stove is not going to have very many cf in the fire box to stand up to load after load of 12%MC spruce.
I see some thermal mass as a crutch to help me run higher throttle settings in really cold weather but still have an active cat at reload when I get home from work.
300 to 500# maybe?
I see some thermal mass as a crutch to help me run higher throttle settings in really cold weather but still have an active cat at reload when I get home from work.
300 to 500# maybe?
Wouldnt the cat heat up sooner? If you took a standard princess and put a huge heavy soapstone on top. To me it would insulate.
Way back in the dark ages combustion control or "turn-down" was very minimal. Any wood put into a stove = gobs of heat coming out. I call these stoves "impulse" stoves. Combustion control was largely achieved by how much and what kind of wood was placed in the stove, not the damper. The stove was fed wood all day long. These stoves would give off searing impulses of radiant heat. In an attempt to smooth out the the heat production soapstone was placed on and around the stove. Soapstone has the unique property of being able to absorb huge quantities of heat and re-radiating them later thus smoothing out the heat production impulses. Also, the stoves had no window to afford the user immediate radiant heat so the whole stove had to heat up before any meaningful heat came out. It would take seemingly forever to heat up a cold house. I see no need at all for soapstone on a BK. The as built thermal mass of BK stoves is all the heat flow smoothing you need whilst minimizing the heat production delay. The Ashford has an extra amount of heat smoothing due to the cast iron cladding to produce that nice "soft" convective heat but also has a giant window to give the perfect balance of immediate radiant heat. These old stoves had a damper on the flue stack. If turned down very much, the smoke would flood into your house so you really had to watch how much wood was placed into the stove. Soap stone is a crutch for low-tech impulse stoves. Its day is over, in my book due to thermostatic control and the catalytic converter implementation. It would introduce unreasonable delay in heat production in a BK. As for keeping a house warm after the fire was largely out, no-not in any meaningful way. Its main forte was to smooth out the heat production while the burning was in progress.
I know I will get a lot of argument about this, but this is my take on soapstone.
I know I will get a lot of argument about this, but this is my take on soapstone.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
There is a reason for that. This is a free and open site, but when the performance of one brand is so different from the rest, natural selection comes into play.
The same reason the iPhone damn near put Ericsson out of business.
Also, you are hanging out in a thread called BK Performance Thread, so what do you expect, here?
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I have an 029 Farm Boss that I purchased new in 1999. It has seen "much" use. In fact, it was my only saw for about ten years. I haven't done anything to it other than normal upkeep and it still runs like a champ.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Your theory is correct, but I think it falls apart in practical application. Those soapstone stoves are mostly within 100# of our BK’s. So, while the weight is more hinderance than help, we’re talking about a difference of 20% in a 10 - 15 minute start-up cycle. What’s that... 2 - 3 minutes?
@kf6hap wrote it all but no, there is no happy medium. You assumed above that a 10# stove wouldn’t hold enough wood but what if it did? The less mass, the quicker we have a stove up to operating temp. More responsive too. A good combustion system then allows the stove to cruise at the desired output until the fuel runs out. What on earth does thermal mass do to help this? Reload and keep the catalyst active or restart again later, your choice.
The only reason these good stoves weigh as much as they do is for durability. Note that the princess uses really thin steel. You can actually see the welds on top where the cat chamber is attached.
The cast iron shell on the Ashford is for looks. That optional shell has helped them sell lots of stoves!
Yes, appearance is important but the cladding completely changes the radiant to convective heat ratio-in a good way. The Ashford outweighs the King by 65 Lbs. The decorative cast iron cladding is also a giant thermal ballast.
You are correct. There is a difference in a cast iron clad stove. The inner steel stove facilitates a quick warm up while the outer jacket acts as a thermal flywheel and buffer. That's quite different from a stone stove. The jacket helps reduce clearances too, which also helps sell stoves.
Quick warm up: Soon after start-up warm air does start to convect upwards from the side panel channels, well before the cladding becomes hot. Not so with stone.
I propose the benefits here are due to double wall convection and not the mass of the outer shell? Don’t you think the same thing would happen with a thin steel outer wall?
I believe heat would still convect out just as rapidly but with the progression of time he thin cladding would heat up rapidly and re-radiate "radiant" heat more rapidly. The side panels do not heat up as much as you might think because the naturally convecting air keeps them relatively cool.
For me, the heavy cast iron cladding prevents the stove room from overheating during the load char and the ability to raise chicks in a dog crate next to the stove.
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Niko
Minister of Fire
how can I avoid smoke spillage coming out of the stove when I reload? Am I being way to inpatient and opening the door way to early? I just reloaded and I had two small splits that where charred up but I wanted to reload now cause I might be out later. I turned the t stat all the way up and then opened the bypass. after about 4 minutes I opened the door and left it cracked until I saw some good red glowing charcoals and the smaller splits light on fire. My flew temp was around 250-300 and I opened the door slowly until it was all the way open. Then I let it sit for a minute or two. I started putting in wood and after the 3rd piece wood started coming out the door so I closed it. I think I see what I'm doing wrong but can a pro help me out please.
is it better to reload on a pretty much empty stove with just come charcoals? Or if I do have splits I need the stove flu to bee in the 350-400 area?
is it better to reload on a pretty much empty stove with just come charcoals? Or if I do have splits I need the stove flu to bee in the 350-400 area?
I have trouble with this too. This same chimney and home with other stoves would suck all smoke in and roar.
The best is to let the coals dwindle way down but second best seems to be to open bypass for a few minutes and then open door and set door down against the closed latch (cracked) for a few minutes with flames on the wood, then only open far enough to load.
Be ready to shut the door if you start spilling smoke. It stinks the house up!
Ashful
Minister of Fire
Exactly. Mass is nothing, with the numbers at play, here. The convective/radiant ratiometric difference is what sets the Ashford apart.
The castings look awesome, we’re not arguing that they aren’t desirable for other reasons.
Nigel459
Feeling the Heat
Interesting... I’d love to hear from others too on this. I have absolutely zero spillage with my 20 box. Pretty long double-walled two-storey stack here, but still this is something I’ve never read on the BK performance thread. Even on warmer days above feeezing, literally never have I had spillage. I figured that awesome rear bypass took care of it. Anyone else have this issue? If so I guess my draft is one of those “on the high side”...?
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