2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 2 (Everything BK)

[gunpowda]

I was going to post this in the general forums but decided to keep it with the BK pros.
I have been improving my burn times and performance of my AF25 insert over the last few weeks. BKVP (chris) has been a huge help as well as everyone on here. Anyway, now for my question:

In researching how to improve performance, I decided to have a 3FT extension installed on top of my masonry chimney. I noticed an improvement right away. Fast forwards a few days and I noticed that the stove was acting odd: smoke roll out, fire struggling to get going let alone stay lit - basically weak draft...So I looked outside and noticed the square plate was popped up 1-2" and could notice a good amount of heat coming out of the opening and resonating from the top of the plate(but not smoke). At this point my bypass was open as I was starting a fire so smoke was coming out of the top CAP.

My dealer was just here and went up and fixed the plate as well as installed some insulation under the plate.

Finally my question:
Is there an issue if the entire chimney liner is insulated within the masonry chimney and having a 3FT uninsulated extension on the outside?
Should this 3FT section be insulated also as it is outside in the elements?

I am also still scratching my head as to why so much heat seemed to be resonating from the plate? Is this normal? It was about 30 - 32 degrees when I saw this with a medium size fire going.

Appreciate the help!

 

[Woody Stover]

By definition, if you reduce the damper setting, this reduces the inlet size, and this reduces the air flow or draft up the chimney....dampering down a stove by definition reduces draft.

Not all that much. There's a hole in the damper plate so even when it is closed, there is still air flowing through and equalizing pressure.

 

[begreen]

I think the difference here is between draft and air flow. Draft is the vacuum pulling wood gases up the flue. You can have the damper closed and still have strong suction on the stove. Air flow may be limited by the thermostat or air control, but the draft strength can still be strong. If draft died when the air is shut off then there would be a danger of reversal. This can happen in some stove locations when the negative pressure in the room exceeds the negative pressure in the chimney, but is not common in a good drafting system.

 

[estepracing]

Has anyone ever tried the Therma glo ecotype burning bricks from Menards or any other type in your Blaze King and what did you think about them, like burn time or heat produced and how many you put in at once.

 

[kf6hap]

Can you explain what you mean by this? Are you saying that .1" is the difference in pressure between the probe in the cat meter and the ambient room air?

Yes. The pressure differential is between the stove's interior and the room.

The below charts tell you the "draw". Flow is not needed to produce draw. Draw decreases with flow due to the pipe's resistance. Pressure drops across a resistance more with increasing flow. All pipes have resistance.

The Thermostat's damper, very unlike old stoves, is quite small so it has little influence on the stove's interior pressure. I know this by test.

Draft is vacuum in column inches and flow is CFM.

Hope this helps.

 

[Tegbert]

I was going to post this in the general forums but decided to keep it with the BK pros.
I have been improving my burn times and performance of my AF25 insert over the last few weeks. BKVP (chris) has been a huge help as well as everyone on here. Anyway, now for my question:

In researching how to improve performance, I decided to have a 3FT extension installed on top of my masonry chimney. I noticed an improvement right away. Fast forwards a few days and I noticed that the stove was acting odd: smoke roll out, fire struggling to get going let alone stay lit - basically weak draft...So I looked outside and noticed the square plate was popped up 1-2" and could notice a good amount of heat coming out of the opening and resonating from the top of the plate(but not smoke). At this point my bypass was open as I was starting a fire so smoke was coming out of the top CAP.

My dealer was just here and went up and fixed the plate as well as installed some insulation under the plate.

Finally my question:
Is there an issue if the entire chimney liner is insulated within the masonry chimney and having a 3FT uninsulated extension on the outside?
Should this 3FT section be insulated also as it is outside in the elements?

I am also still scratching my head as to why so much heat seemed to be resonating from the plate? Is this normal? It was about 30 - 32 degrees when I saw this with a medium size fire going.

Appreciate the help!

Are you sure the extension is uninsulated? I thought that it had to be a class a?

I have 11ft of insulated 6” liner with a transition anchor plate to 6 feet of class a above that.

I am having issues right now with smoke roll out no matter what I do I get quite a bit that spills out when the door is open.


Lopi Rockport
Blaze King Ashford 25

 

[gunpowda]

I asked for whatever is reminded and they told me they installed "rigid" ss pipe

 

[gunpowda]

*recomended

 

[Highbeam]

I asked for whatever is reminded and they told me they installed "rigid" ss pipe

You can buy rigid single wall stainless pipe. Or you can buy rigid, insulated, class a, stainless pipe. Huge price difference and I would want class a, insulated, but I do not know if code requires it.

 

[redktmrider]

Has anyone ever tried the Therma glo ecotype burning bricks from Menards or any other type in your Blaze King and what did you think about them, like burn time or heat produced and how many you put in at once.

I have used the Therma Glo (sold at Orschelin also) and also the Eco Bricks (TSC) in my Ashford. They give good burn times but the coaling is not like that of cord wood. Make sure you have a good coal bed and don't pack them in too tightly as the expand when they burn. I've had 9 of them in the Ashford at one time, give about a 12 hour burn on a medium setting. I find it is very difficult to start a new fire with them, so would reserve them for reloading. I weighed both brands and the weights are comparable and the claimed moisture content are similar. I will be buying the Therma Glo as the are a dollar cheaper (6 pack) than the Eco Bricks.

 

[gunpowda]

You can buy rigid single wall stainless pipe. Or you can buy rigid, insulated, class a, stainless pipe. Huge price difference and I would want class a, insulated, but I do not know if code requires it.

why would you want class a, insulated? I guess I am looking for a scientific/physics answer. The more I think about it, the more it seems like it could be an issue(insulated to single wall rigid). You have gases traveling through 2 different mediums (air temps/density). The 3FT addition was meant to help with draft but if its not insulated. But then again, it will not bad as insulated as the masonry liner....However it is the last 3FT before exiting.
AND with a blaze king the temps should not be that high?
Just posting my thought and looking for feedback on this.

I am running 16FT insulated SS liner up masonry chimney,and 3FT SS single wall rigid on top of that, finished with a CAP.

Perhaps I am spending too much time on this. I wish I could trust the dealer...esp since I told the dealer/chimney contractor to give me the best option to max performance/efficiency for my stove when adding the 3FT extension.

Thanks all!

 

[Highbeam]

why would you want class a, insulated? I guess I am looking for a scientific/physics answer. The more I think about it, the more it seems like it could be an issue(insulated to single wall rigid). You have gases traveling through 2 different mediums (air temps/density). The 3FT addition was meant to help with draft but if its not insulated. But then again, it will not bad as insulated as the masonry liner....However it is the last 3FT before exiting.
AND with a blaze king the temps should not be that high?
Just posting my thought and looking for feedback on this.

I am running 16FT insulated SS liner up masonry chimney,and 3FT SS single wall rigid on top of that, finished with a CAP.

Perhaps I am spending too much time on this. I wish I could trust the dealer...esp since I told the dealer/chimney contractor to give me the best option to max performance/efficiency for my stove when adding the 3FT extension.

Thanks all!

I would want it insulated for the same reason you insulated your liner. Superior performance due to warmer flue temps which is what creates draft. Also because if uninsulated you know that last three feet up there in the cold air will be a creosote factory!

Also aesthetics are better with the polished stainless class a that will stay silver vs single wall stainless that will get brown and tarnish.

I would be willing to pay the up charge even if I had a choice. I don’t know if it’s even allowed to go back to single wall for the extension.

 

[Woody Stover]

Air flow may be limited by the thermostat or air control, but the draft strength can still be strong.

In which case the draft would be pulling more air into the remaining available openings, e.g the door gasket, so less smoke should come out of the stove into the room. Perplexing indeed...

why would you want class a, insulated? I guess I am looking for a scientific/physics answer.

Well, the warmer you can keep the exhaust, all the way up, the less condensation you will get especially when running the stove at low heat output. The last 3' of rigid will lose heat faster than the insulated Class A will. I don't think the other stuff you mentioned (transitioning) makes much difference.

 

[Poindexter]

why would you want class a, insulated? I guess I am looking for a scientific/physics answer. The more I think about it, the more it seems like it could be an issue(insulated to single wall rigid).

The single most important factor for good draft is how far up the chimney are you carrying the most heat possible. There are many other factors that don't make as much difference even though they can matter.

You kinda want to retain control of the exhaust temp at the stove collar, as in not have to run around at full throttle all the the time.

As you close the air intake to make the stove burn slower, your exhaust gas temp at the stove collar is getting lower and lower and at the same time it is becoming more and more important to maintain your draft so the stove can keep burning. The key here is to keep your exhaust gas as hot as possible all the way to the top of the flue. That's going to get you the most possible draft with the lowest possible throttle setting so you can burn low and slow.

So you added three feet of single wall not insulated pipe and your draft improved enough that your original problem went away. Ok good. Within limits adding more pipe increases your draft - for most people most of the time - but that added pipe is more pipe that needs to be heated by the exhaust gas to maintain draft. If you switch out the inexpensive single wall for more expensive but higher insulating value class A double wall, you still have the slight added draft from the new height, but now with insulated pipe you will be able to achieve that low burn sooner because you don't have to waste as much heat getting your pipe warm, and the low burn will last longer because you will drop the some of the added load to the stove keeping that extra pipe warm.

Now that you know how much pipe you need to add, switching out to insulated or double wall class A should be a win/win for burn times and low throttle settings. I dunno how long the break even point is, but eventually the more expensive pipe will pay for it self if wood savings, and your original complaint will be fixed for the whole time.

 

[Poindexter]

The wife and i have a couple of the kids home for the holiday. We caved in on stove room temp, dropping the target temp of the stove room by ten dF so the kids would sit in there with us. We figure we can splash a little cognac in our evening port for the arthritis pain and turn the stove back up when we take them to the airport.

My cord wood tetris skills are pretty well polished, it is solstice today after all. Typical reload, high for 30 minutes, turned the knob to here all at once from the "3" setting on my legacy hardware. No little steps. 30 minutes on high, turn it down to here.



That was 26 hours ago.

 

[Poindexter]

26 hours, no smoke smell in the house, and check these out....

 

[Poindexter]

And technically i got a hot reload out of that since i used no match and the cat was standing ready for the wood to char.



I engaged the cat on the fresh load at 2130 local tonight.

 

[begreen]

We caved in on stove room temp, dropping the target temp of the stove room by ten dF so the kids would sit in there with us.

When we visit relatives back east we sometimes get blasted with 80+F heat. With the low humidity I get a sore throat within a couple hours. I'm with the kids. Anything above about 75F and I am sweltering. Prefer it to be more around 72F.

 

[Woody Stover]

Now that you know how much pipe you need to add, switching out to insulated or double wall class A should be a win/win for burn times and low throttle settings. I dunno how long the break even point is, but eventually the more expensive pipe will pay for it self if wood savings, and your original complaint will be fixed for the whole time.

Actually a triple-win...you have more spare stove stuff lying around..never know when you're gonna need it.

The wife and i have a couple of the kids home for the holiday. We caved in on stove room temp, dropping the target temp of the stove room by ten dF so the kids would sit in there with us.

Yikes, how hot do you normally have it in there??

We figure we can splash a little cognac in our evening port for the arthritis pain and turn the stove back up when we take them to the airport.

The oldest line in the world..even Granny Clampett referred to it as her "rumatiz medicine." I don't mind admitting I'm not averse to a buzz..and a little flavor of course.

 

[estepracing]

I have used the Therma Glo (sold at Orschelin also) and also the Eco Bricks (TSC) in my Ashford. They give good burn times but the coaling is not like that of cord wood. Make sure you have a good coal bed and don't pack them in too tightly as the expand when they burn. I've had 9 of them in the Ashford at one time, give about a 12 hour burn on a medium setting. I find it is very difficult to start a new fire with them, so would reserve them for reloading. I weighed both brands and the weights are comparable and the claimed moisture content are similar. I will be buying the Therma Glo as the are a dollar cheaper (6 pack) than the Eco Bricks.

Thanks for the info

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[Alpine1]

When we visit relatives back east we sometimes get blasted with 80+F heat. With the low humidity I get a sore throat within a couple hours. I'm with the kids. Anything above about 75F and I am sweltering. Prefer it to be more around 72F.

Gosh... we keep our bedroom at 16C (60F) and the rest of the house at 20-21C (‘round 70F) and i sometimes have to open a window....

 

[kf6hap]

Because of thermal stratification and extremely low humidity, having the stove room 79-83 is nice when it is in the 30s and below. Well I finally broke down and got one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075RCK9GV/?tag=hearthamazon-20

I like it as it is aimed at the kitchen and actually does some good. I think it will last on a BK. Air tubers get so hot it might cook the gutz out of the Seebeck device making them short lived. It won't make your hair rustle as you walk by but a constant drift is very effective.

 

[Nigel459]

Because of thermal stratification and extremely low humidity, having the stove room 79-83 is nice when it is in the 30s and below. Well I finally broke down and got one of these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075RCK9GV/?tag=hearthamazon-20

I like it as it is aimed at the kitchen and actually does some good. I think it will last on a BK. Air tubers get so hot it might cook the gutz out of the Seebeck device making them short lived. It won't make your hair rustle as you walk by but a constant drift is very effective.

And I like that once you get to know the speed/temp relationship it’s easy to tell from anywhere how hot the stovetop is. Mostly in the morning it tells the story of if you’re still hot... or not. Haha.

 

[oldbluedeer]

Not all that much. There's a hole in the damper plate so even when it is closed, there is still air flowing through and equalizing pressure.

To a certain extent, I would agree.

 

[oldbluedeer]

I think the difference here is between draft and air flow. Draft is the vacuum pulling wood gases up the flue. You can have the damper closed and still have strong suction on the stove. Air flow may be limited by the thermostat or air control, but the draft strength can still be strong. If draft died when the air is shut off then there would be a danger of reversal. This can happen in some stove locations when the negative pressure in the room exceeds the negative pressure in the chimney, but is not common in a good drafting system.

I actually may have learned something from your post, in that their is a difference between air flow and draft. Thank you.

However, it still seems that under open damper conditions the greater mass of air moving through the pipe causes additional strength in the draw because of the inertia of that moving body of air, compared to the low flow scenario where the stove is dampered down. Its like you are trying to pull a heavy object across the floor, or push a car by yourself on a flat surface. The hardest part is getting it started moving, but once it is moving less effort required is required to keep it going, and it takes effort to stop it.

At any rate, the only reason that I am giving this so much thought, is because the smoke smell in room occurs mostly after the stove has been dampered down, the air flow through the chimney is greatly reduced, and the smoke and fumes have time to meander around the interior of the stove. When the air flow is higher with an open damper, the inertia of the moving air keeps all the smoke moving up the chimney, air doesn't linger in the firebox, and the practical effect of draw is greater.