2017-18 Blaze King Performance Thread PART 2 (Everything BK)

[lsucet]

Don't matter how I try to see it, I still not understanding this situation unless your houses are getting into a big negative pressure pulling the smell thru the gasket when the stove has a low draft. How many fans and ceilings fans are you running at the same time trying to distribute the heat? Are you have the stove fans? Is more or less with the fan on or off?
I will agree with webby3650 on this one. It has to be something with your setup. I don't see any other possibilities. You have done everything that can actually give you that issue. Like I said earlier, what's left?

 

[oldbluedeer]

He’s probably the busiest guy you’ll ever meet. Often times he not even in the US when he’s posting on here helping with problems.

I hate to say it man, but it’s likely not just the stove. These stoves are all produced the same. The very same.. an occasional weld skip or something happens, but not often. This “smoke smell” is really probably 1 in 10,000 units, probably more. This site is the go to for problems, rarely attracts people looking to sing a stoves praises. There’s probably something in the setup, in the home, or around the home contributing to the problem. Stoves suck, that’s what they do. In order leak smoke there has to be an underlying issue.

1 in 10,000 units? Good grief, that is a ridiculous estimate, as there have been at least 3-4 people (or more, I haven't been keeping a tally) on this one forum with the smoke smell problem in just the past few weeks. By the way, there are a lot of people on this forum who love to sing the praises of BK stoves and speak on their behalf. Your comment was inaccurate, and not helpful at all. Meanwhile, I and others are trying to resolve a very real issue with smoke smell in the house.

 

[oldbluedeer]

Don't matter how I try to see it, I still not understanding this situation unless your houses are getting into a big negative pressure pulling the smell thru the gasket when the stove has a low draft. How many fans and ceilings fans are you running at the same time trying to distribute the heat? Are you have the stove fans? Is more or less with the fan on or off?
I will agree with webby3650 on this one. It has to be something with your setup. I don't see any other possibilities. You have done everything that can actually give you that issue. Like I said earlier, what's left?

I don't run any fans in the house. There is a fan kit on the BK stove, but I rarely use it. Early on I did a test with BKVP to see if I might need an OAK, but there isn't a need for one. It's got 17' of chimney, with new and tight fitting connections. What's left? I surely don't know for sure. The cat is an open question for me. It must introduce some restriction on the outflow of smoke exhaust, compared to when the bypass is open. Perhaps doing what Miss Mac is doing, pulling out the factory gasket and installing a new one and carefully caulking with RTV the full length underneath. There are others on this site who claim that fixed the issue for them. Replacing the Duravent adapter with one from Amerivent definitely helped my situation, but didn't totally resolve it. To those who say that sufficient draft solves all problems with smoke smell in the house, well there are plenty of testimonies on this forum that say otherwise. I'll call BK support line and see what they say.

 

[webby3650]

1 in 10,000 units? Good grief, that is a ridiculous estimate, as there have been at least 3-4 people (or more, I haven't been keeping a tally) on this one forum with the smoke smell problem in just the past few weeks. By the way, there are a lot of people on this forum who love to sing the praises of BK stoves and speak on their behalf. Your comment was inaccurate, and not helpful at all. Meanwhile, I and others are trying to resolve a very real issue with smoke smell in the house.

There are people who hang out here, those people love their stove. This site is for people with problems, they come here only because they have an issue. That’s a fact.
You really don’t know how big of a company BK is do you?

 

[moresnow]

Wow. Let the stove go out yesterday/overnight for some brushing. LP heat is making the wife grumpy already! Brrrr.

 

[kf6hap]

The cat is an open question for me. It must introduce some restriction on the outflow of smoke exhaust, compared to when the bypass is open.

I tested the pressure drop across the cat. It is near zero.

To those who say that sufficient draft solves all problems with smoke smell in the house, well there are plenty of testimonies on this forum that say otherwise.

This is correct, you are not alone.

Replacing the Duravent adapter with one from Amerivent definitely helped my situation, but didn't totally resolve it.

It seems, getting a handle on the smoke smell is a step-by-step process. Each step helps:

1. Qualifying the chimney system height, materials and construction. All joints tested for leakage.
2. Verifying wood moisture content by meter, using proper procedure.
3. Replacing the door gasket, even if new, with a gasket imbedded in a continuous bead of RTV. This procedure subject to improvement.
4. Check the door glass gasket for tightness and leakage (rare problem?).

I propose that not all chimney systems are not equal even though they meet the height, diameter, altitude correction, construction materials and proper installation procedures, including joint testing, are faithfully followed.

Perhaps some chimney materials, not having a high enough R factor, are unsuitable for the use in these exceedingly long burning stoves in spite of meeting all code requirements due to excessive heat losses resulting in inadequate draw.

These BK stoves might need a chimney qualification process completely different than the same old same old.

I must give credit, Poindexter is involved in a lot of the above thinking.

My thinking could also be >%30 MC too, but things seem to be pointing in this direction.

 

[kf6hap]

LP heat is making the wife grumpy already! Brrrr.

Wood stove radiant heat is like sunshine.

 

[MissMac]

[QUOTE="

When you customer support is awesome, are you talking about calling a BK 800 number and getting support that way?
Did BK provide you with a new gasket kit and the RTV, since you are having to fix a new stove?

.

Yes, BKVP gave me a few tips and was helpful, but i have been talking extensively back and forth with a guy on the other end of the support hotline number from the front of my stove manual. It's through the phone number that they've been helping me - i've been talking to the Canadian office out on the west coast. And yes, i did get a gasket kit at no charge, and installed it myself.

I think i'm going to take a holiday time-out from trouble shooting for now. It is cold here (-27 degrees C), and supposed to be getting into the high 30s this weekend. so just want to burn, and not take the stove out of commission from tinkering!

 

[Ashful]

I g to excessive heat losses resulting in inadequate draw.

These BK stoves might need a chimney qualification process completely different than the same old same old.

I must give credit, Poindexter is involved in a lot of the above thinking.

My thinking could also be >%30 MC too, but things seem to be pointing in this direction.

This is an excellent summary. BK sells many thousands of this 30 firebox, and we have seen maybe a half dozen users with this problem. Webby is correct in saying the vast majority (99%+) of BK owners don’t end up on this site, it’s mostly just us enthusiasts, and those few users who have had a problem.

I had all sorts of trouble with backpuffing in my old cat stoves, when I tried running wood that was not properly seasoned (minimum 3 years, for the wood I burn). I’d arrive home from work, and could smell the faint acrid smell of a stove that had backpuffed at some point earlier in the day. In the case of that stove, it was usually in the second or third hour of a long burn. I am sure that some fraction of these cases can be blamed on wet wood, as it’s the most common problem we see, annually.

Another thing that is usually not considered in the “my stack is 15 feet tall,” discussions, is how surrounding objects affect chimney performance. We’ve seen quite a few posts over the years of, “I cut down a tall tree 40 feet from my house, and now my stove runs much better.” We’ve also seen users frustrated by the effects of an adjacent roof peak or neighboring building, every situation is unique.

Then there is the issue of build quality. We’ve seen a few, albeit not many, flubs on the part of BK. Skipped welds, improperly fitted door gaskets, it can happen, but not often.

All of this considered, it’s amazing we don’t see more problems. I don’t know BKs exact sales numbers, and they’re a privately held company, so info is limited. But based on Manta’s published annual revenue, I’d guess it to be 5000 to 10,000 stoves per year. The 30 firebox has been around many years, and the Ashford 30 is most popular among them. So, it’s feasible to think their total population is somewhere in five-figure land.

 

[Blazing]

Wow. Let the stove go out yesterday/overnight for some brushing. LP heat is making the wife grumpy already! Brrrr.

I did the same thing. Trick is wake up early enough that it's running again when she wakes up lol.

 

[MissMac]

one thing i might check is the stove top adapter piece - when i had the telescopic pipe up and was looking down into the stove, i couldn't budge the adapter piece of pipe it was on there so snug. but i can see that it's not sitting all the way down on the collar of the stove - in fact, it terminates just below the top of the fan deck. i will have to investigate whether the internal piece slides down into the stove further, but like i said, i couldn't even budge it to take it off to get better access to the bypass plate. so i don't know how leaky it could be given how tight it is on there?

 

[MissMac]

I did the same thing. Trick is wake up early enough that it's running again when she wakes up lol.

ha! i caught heck for the same thing this morning!

 

[Ashful]

i couldn't even budge it to take it off to get better access to the bypass plate. so i don't know how leaky it could be given how tight it is on there?

You did see oldbluedeer’s mention of a weld causing the adapter to not seal well? Tight doesn’t always mean sealed.

Someone may want to make BKVP aware of that issue, so their process engineers and inspectors can have a look at how they’re handling that weld, and be sure it’s not repeated. It may have been a one-time problem, but I’m sure they’d like to have a look at it.

 

[black smoke signals]

Kf6hap I’m sure Bk stoves at the factory are pressure checked correct? Seems to me the dollar bill check is not working for some of us. If I had to prove a point with my stove (smoke smell) I would pressure check my stove. Cap the outlet at the stove or the chimney cap with rubber cap and a band clamp then apply low air pressure to cat probe hole till the rubber cap grows and spray soapy water all over supspected area. Vacuum could also be used with a pump too. The installation of a stove should include simple checks for the consumer before first lighting!

 

[Highbeam]

Kf6hap I’m sure Bk stoves at the factory are pressure checked correct? Seems to me the dollar bill check is not working for some of us. If I had to prove a point with my stove (smoke smell) I would pressure check my stove. Cap the outlet at the stove or the chimney cap with rubber cap and a band clamp then apply low air pressure to cat probe hole till the rubber cap grows and spray soapy water all over supspected area. Vacuum could also be used with a pump too. The installation of a stove should include simple checks for the consumer before first lighting!

I very much doubt any sort of pressure test is done. It would be more like a blower door test anyway as the intake system does not close tight and the door gasket is permeable. A minimal flow spec could be achieved.

I see two obvious ways that quality control for this very expensive stove could be improved by the manufacturer. Clean out (or quit making) the garbage weld inside the flue collar and learn how to properly install a door gasket. Both of these can only be described as sloppiness on the part of the manufacturer. We should not have to grind a brand new stove or replace door gaskets on day one.

The bk manuals specify a required draft strength and a minimum chimney height. Regardless of chimney height if you can’t meet the draft spec then you need more chimney or you risk smoke leakage.

 

[Highbeam]

You did see oldbluedeer’s mention of a weld causing the adapter to not seal well? Tight doesn’t always mean sealed.

Someone may want to make BKVP aware of that issue, so their process engineers and inspectors can have a look at how they’re handling that weld, and be sure it’s not repeated. It may have been a one-time problem, but I’m sure they’d like to have a look at it.

The weld blob inside the collar is not new. My princess had it too. It was huge. I tried to grind it down but it was huge and right in the worst place. Maybe if the flue collar was seamless tube (chunk of well casing) and taller so as to put the weld out of the sealing area.

 

[Highbeam]

one thing i might check is the stove top adapter piece - when i had the telescopic pipe up and was looking down into the stove, i couldn't budge the adapter piece of pipe it was on there so snug. but i can see that it's not sitting all the way down on the collar of the stove - in fact, it terminates just below the top of the fan deck. i will have to investigate whether the internal piece slides down into the stove further, but like i said, i couldn't even budge it to take it off to get better access to the bypass plate. so i don't know how leaky it could be given how tight it is on there?

Note that the outer wall of the double wall flue pipe is almost never supposed to set on the stove top.

 

[kf6hap]

Kf6hap I’m sure Bk stoves at the factory are pressure checked correct?

I don't know. Not too many possible leak to check points to check. Loading door, ash plug and cat probe hole. The telescoping pipe connection must be checked too.

 

[kf6hap]

I had all sorts of trouble with backpuffing in my old cat stoves, when I tried running wood that was not properly seasoned (minimum 3 years, for the wood I burn). I

My previous stove, an Encore, would backpuff while we slept no matter what I burned. That led me to this web site. After a lot of discussion I dumped it for the BK. A very expensive learning curve and no I don't miss the top loading door. The BK runs 3X as long on a load and the thermostat actually works.

 

[oldbluedeer]

Yes, BKVP gave me a few tips and was helpful, but i have been talking extensively back and forth with a guy on the other end of the support hotline number from the front of my stove manual. It's through the phone number that they've been helping me - i've been talking to the Canadian office out on the west coast. And yes, i did get a gasket kit at no charge, and installed it myself.

I think i'm going to take a holiday time-out from trouble shooting for now. It is cold here (-27 degrees C), and supposed to be getting into the high 30s this weekend. so just want to burn, and not take the stove out of commission from tinkering!

Thanks for the info and encouragement. I'll give them a call. The Christmas time-out is a good idea!

 

[oldbluedeer]

There are people who hang out here, those people love their stove. This site is for people with problems, they come here only because they have an issue. That’s a fact.
You really don’t know how big of a company BK is do you?

I don't have their annual report in front of me, so I don't know their annual sales numbers for sure.

But BKVP himself said folks on this site represent the top 1% of burners. Part of the reason why that is true is because most people are unwilling or unable to spend the time, dig this deep and learn the technical details on what they thought was the simple wood stove they just bought. BK stoves are in many ways similar to an appliance, and not at all a simple wood stove, and some folks don't understand that when they make the purchase. Many do not have the wherewithal or skills to get online. Many lead lives that are too busy. Some are too old and frail. I think that more than a few people just live with the smoke smell issue, or refrain from dampering down for the long burn.

And so no, I do not believe that people encountering smoke problems represent just 1 in 10,000 purchases.

 

[oldbluedeer]

I tested the pressure drop across the cat. It is near zero.

This is correct, you are not alone.

It seems, getting a handle on the smoke smell is a step-by-step process. Each step helps:

1. Qualifying the chimney system height, materials and construction. All joints tested for leakage.
2. Verifying wood moisture content by meter, using proper procedure.
3. Replacing the door gasket, even if new, with a gasket imbedded in a continuous bead of RTV. This procedure subject to improvement.
4. Check the door glass gasket for tightness and leakage (rare problem?).

From above,
1. Done
2. Per Stihl moisture meter on the face of freshly split logs: 12-15% moisture for most wood, an occasional log 16-17%, none at 20% or above.
3. This is the next step for me. I'll call the support line and ask them to send me a kit
4. Done

I propose that not all chimney systems are not equal even though they meet the height, diameter, altitude correction, construction materials and proper installation procedures, including joint testing, are faithfully followed.

Perhaps some chimney materials, not having a high enough R factor, are unsuitable for the use in these exceedingly long burning stoves in spite of meeting all code requirements due to excessive heat losses resulting in inadequate draw.

These BK stoves might need a chimney qualification process completely different than the same old same old.

I have done all these things. Brand new Duratech double wall pipe on the inside, chimney box, and class A double wall stainless chimney on the exterior. Joints are straight and tight. Low temps have ranged in the mid twenties F during the night, to the upper 30s or mid 40s during the day.

I must give credit, Poindexter is involved in a lot of the above thinking.

My thinking could also be >%30 MC too, but things seem to be pointing in this direction.

I have been careful about this. Per Stihl moisture meter on the face of freshly split logs: 12-15% moisture for most wood, an occasional log 16-17%, none at 20% or above.

 

[MissMac]

Note that the outer wall of the double wall flue pipe is almost never supposed to set on the stove top.

Thanks Highbeam - duly noted!

 

[MissMac]

Thanks for the info and encouragement. I'll give them a call. The Christmas time-out is a good idea!

Ya, I would if I were you - they have been beyond courteous and helpful. And I'll tell you what - although the smell is still here, it is nowhere near as bad as it was pre-gasket change.

 

[oldbluedeer]

Here are two photos of the weld blob at the top of the Sirocco 2.0 stovetop collar (hopefully both photos show up, I have had trouble getting more than one photo to load, using iMac with Chrome).

The portion of the weld protruding above the collar definitely caused a problem with the loose fitting Duratech stovetop adapter. The weld only protrudes slightly toward the inside of the collar. With the tighter fitting Amerivent adapter, the weld blob may not have been such a big issue, but I removed it anyways. I didn't want to use a grinder in the house, so a sharp cold chisel and hammer removed it without making a mess.