2016-17 Blaze King Performance Thread (Everything BK)

[Tocramed]

I have a question along these lines; well...possibly along these lines. We have been running our new Princess insert for about a month now. It seems to be working great, I can run it all the way on low without it stalling, and it puts out good heat. The problem is how hot is too hot on the cat probe? I know most say to ignore it as long as it is in the active zone, ours goes way beyond the active zone.

In the picture, the needle made it to the "c" on .com before I turned it all the way to low. It had been running medium/low for over an hour when it started getting up this high. When cold, the needle is below the inactive zone.View attachment 188710 View attachment 188711
Normal? What would happen if I left this on high? Using an IR thermometer a few inches to the right of the cat probe, I am hitting almost 800^F. This is under the louver/trim piece that sits on top.

The thermostat knob is secure, door and glass gaskets are tight. I am using mixed hardwood that is 16%-18%, fully loaded stove with 4"-6" splits. The bypass gasket is tight on 3 sides and only snug on the 3rd (dollar bill won't fall out on its own, but I can pull it out).

I am also seeing low burn times on a full load. ~14 hours overnight last night. 22ft insulated liner, 35^F outside, slight breeze. This is on low with the fan running on low.

What should I be looking for?

So, it is clear I am still learning...I have been able to keep the cat temp down by turning the thermostat down in smaller steps while the cat probe is about 1/2 into the active zone. All good there.

But, I still can't get these long burn times folks keep talking about. I mentioned one scenario above and last night a full load didn't make it 12 hours. 11.5 hours from the moment the fresh splits hit the hot coals until I walked up to it this morning; it was only about 1/4 into the inactive zone. Again, 16%-18% hardwood, most are 4-5" splits. We got down to ~20^F last night and it was a bid windy around 20mph. I left the stove at the 3rd dot from low with the fan on med/low. Door and glass gaskets are still good.

I would think I should get at least 16 hours in these conditions. What am I doing wrong? Or is this normal and I over thinking it?

 

[shoot-straight]

So, it is clear I am still learning...I have been able to keep the cat temp down by turning the thermostat down in smaller steps while the cat probe is about 1/2 into the active zone. All good there.

But, I still can't get these long burn times folks keep talking about. I mentioned one scenario above and last night a full load didn't make it 12 hours. 11.5 hours from the moment the fresh splits hit the hot coals until I walked up to it this morning; it was only about 1/4 into the inactive zone. Again, 16%-18% hardwood, most are 4-5" splits. We got down to ~20^F last night and it was a bid windy around 20mph. I left the stove at the 3rd dot from low with the fan on med/low. Door and glass gaskets are still good.

I would think I should get at least 16 hours in these conditions. What am I doing wrong? Or is this normal and I over thinking it?

reading threads here you would think that everyone can just throw a bunch of wood in the box and walk away for 24 hours and the BK "magic" will keep your house toasty no matter the temp outside. that is not the case. every single setup is different. every house is different. wood is different. I got an ashford when they first came out about 2 years ago and struggled at first. my burn times were short and i was disapointed.

over time i have learned alot about what my stove likes and doesnt like. my house is a heat-sink. i have catheral cieilings and lots of air leakage. i live on a hilltop. not a good combination. if i want to, i can get a long burn. it just doesnt put out enough heat in some situations. i have found a sweet spot just below 3:00 on the knob that seems to give me good heat on 12 hr cycles for most cool-cold days.

the fan- oh the fan. compared to my hearthstone, my ashford is a poor radiant heater. the fan is great at putting out heat into the room but it significantly shortens my burn times. how much? well that depends on speed, but on higher speeds it can be as high as 40%. thats alot. in short, it does this by pulling cooler air over the stat cools it significantly and makes it think its cooler than it is. so it opens up and lets in more combustion air. i have hooked up a cheap timer so mine cycles on and off hourly. this extends my burntimes considerably. one person on her has set up a thermostat switch for the stove, that sounds like a great idea. i will likely do the same so the fan kicks on when i need the extra heat, and is off when i dont.

important notes- small adjustments of the stat can have HUGE implications for heat and burntimes. HUGE. every time you set it, really take the time to note where it is set, what the stove does, what the wx is outside and how full you stuff the box.

overall, my BK is doing what it is supposed to do, but my house simply needs a bit more at times.

 

[tarzan]

I have never ran an insert so strictly based on what I read here I'm convinced the inserts aren't normally going to get the burn times of there free standing brothers.

Shoot straight probably just Answered a big part of the reason why above. The fan. Optional on free standing stoves, not so much on inserts.

I can load it up and walk away for 24 hours easily if that's what I want to do but the weather outside dictates how I run my stove so when I need the fans I know to expect much shorter burn times on the same thermostat setting.

 

[Tocramed]

I certainly understand that burn times will drop with the fan running, tstat getting turned up, wind, cooler temps, etc. I don't expect to see 20 hour burns in these conditions with the house at 85. Just looking for ideas on what I should be looking for when tweaking for the best results; what steps do you take to determine you have the best setting? If I can get on a 12 hour cycle while staying in the active zone, I would be happy. When it is really cold, I might not be able to keep the house at 70, but at least reloading would be consistent.

 

[Tocramed]

I feel like I sound like I am whining, but I am not...too much anyway. So, let me add: I love the stove and the heat it puts out. Much, much nicer than our old Grizzly which couldn't burn for 8 hours if my life depended on it.

 

[Poindexter]

One thing I do notice is when I'm burning in my cruising zone (little if any flame, active cat) my flue gas temps generally range between 200 and 250 deg (I know I'm breaking the bk law, single wall black pipe with thermometer up about 15" from stove top)
Now when I do my "high" burn I get flue temps closer to 450deg, now that's prob higher in the pipe so I can have the ability to send heat up there if needed.
To the poster that stated they would just run the stove on high with the by-pass opened longer, I have to ask why? what the purpose, you will still send crud up the pipe that will prob cool and condense on the cap making the situation worse, or maybe the thinking is to burn the build up off the top section of chimney (ie chimney fire?) I'm kind of lost with that train of thought, just make sure the cap is cleared, do reg chimney cleaning (I do mine twice a year) and burn dry wood.

If it was me re posts 1144/1145/1146 I was talking about water vapor/ potentially icing up the interior of the cold end of the chimney pipe.

Down to -30dF I stick with the hot reload regimen I posted last night. In colder temps I would be inclined to run a hot reload with loading door closed and cat bypassed for a few minutes instead of a few seconds (as @Ashful does routinely).

I have never yet had trouble with water vapor in the exhaust stream icing up my chimney pipe, but in -40s and -50s dF I do hot reloads the Ashful way to keep the flue more hotter while the initial surge of water vapor is moving through.

 

[Woody Stover]

I look at it as getting every btu you can out of our toils and the second burn is producing more BTU. From my manual.
"RELOADING PROCEDURE (with the catalyst temperature still in the inactive zone) " ............... "
Once loaded, latch the loading door shut and close the bypass door

That's not what I'm seeing in your manual....that looks to me like the procedure for when the cat is in the "active" zone:

 

[Ashful]

From my manual.

"RELOADING PROCEDURE (with the catalyst temperature still in the inactive zone) " ............... "

Those who've been here a little longer will remember BKVP contradicting the manual on this issue, and suggesting a few minutes in bypass on a hot reload. That's from where I got my procedure.

We both know h2o is one of the common products of wood combustion. no way is the cat "allergic" to water.

Number one reason given for ceramic catalyst mechanical failure via fracture: steam impingement. Steelcats are much more durable in this regard, but many are still running ceramic cats. I also don't see much point in subjecting my 1000F cat to "cold" steam on reloads.

 

[Woody Stover]

still can't get these long burn times folks keep talking about.....16%-18% hardwood, most are 4-5" splits. We got down to ~20^F last night and it was a bid windy around 20mph.

Since our house isn't insulated or sealed as well as it could be, in that kind of weather I am burning with more air to get more heat, and burn times drop.
Now I have to ask, what species are these "hardwoods" you are burning? In northern WI, that could mean White Poplar, or Bigtooth or Quaking Aspen which are all in the Willow family and have low output. Down here I also burn only hardwoods, but my Yellow (Tulip) 'Poplar' "hardwood" burns only half as long as my Black Locust "hardwood."

 

[Tocramed]

Since our house isn't insulated or sealed as well as it could be, in that kind of weather I am burning with more air to get more heat, and burn times drop.
Now I have to ask, what species are these "hardwoods" you are burning? In northern WI, that could mean White Poplar, or Bigtooth or Quaking Aspen which are all in the Willow family and have low output. Down here I also burn only hardwoods, but my Yellow (Tulip) 'Poplar' "hardwood" burns only half as long as my Black Locust "hardwood."

Most of the wood I have for this year and next is a mix of oak, ash, and maple with some white birch and poplar. I can't say for sure if the maple is sugar or silver. The rest of my stacks are beech, ash, and hickory right now with a lot more ash on the way. Boxelder for shoulder seasons next year.

I am sure when I get to the beech, it will be really nice and warm. I do have some for this year as well, but it might still be in the low 20s for moisture content.

 

[Woody Stover]

Those who've been here a little longer will remember BKVP contradicting the manual on this issue, and suggesting a few minutes in bypass on a hot reload. That's from where I got my procedure.

I'm firmly in that camp as well; Ya gotta burn a load in and get some wood gassing, or the cat has nothing to eat. My light-offs also seem to benefit from the higher temps in the top of the stove (around the cat) that a lively burn-in creates....YMMV with the steel stove.

wood I have for this year and next is a mix of oak, ash, and maple with some white birch and poplar. I can't say for sure if the maple is sugar or silver. The rest of my stacks are beech, ash, and hickory right now with a lot more ash on the way. Boxelder for shoulder seasons next year. I am sure when I get to the beech, it will be really nice and warm. I do have some for this year as well, but it might still be in the low 20s for moisture content.

Well, that's certainly a great mix of woods with plenty of higher-output stuff. Sugar (hard) Maple is definitely a cut above the soft Maples, and White Ash will put out about like hard Maple or Red Oak...better than Green or Black Ash.

 

[Shayne]

That's not what I'm seeing in your manual....that looks to me like the procedure for when the cat is in the "active" zone:

View attachment 189711 View attachment 189712

Yes that is exactly what I have been talking about for the last couple of pages reloading when the stove is "RIPPING HOT" not the end of burn and trying to get a feel for shock to the cat when the door is opened and the protect of it that is required. If the stove is ripping hot it would mean it is most likely in the active zone. unfortunately I cut and pasted the bottom line from your page 1 not the top line, my bad, good catch.

Regards

 

[volunbeer]

Yes that is exactly what I have been talking about for the last couple of pages reloading when the stove is "RIPPING HOT" not the end of burn and trying to get a feel for shock to the cat when the door is opened and the protect of it that is required. If the stove is ripping hot it would mean it is most likely in the active zone. unfortunately I cut and pasted the bottom line from your page 1 not the top line, my bad, good catch.

Regards

I have read and re-read posts here about how to operate this stove and my takeaway was that you open the bypass for a couple of minutes, turn the air all the way up, and turn the fan off. Then you can open the door and reload on coals (if you have them) allowing the new wood to begin burning before locking the door and re-engaging the cat (if it is still active) giving the stove a good 20 minutes or longer to get real hot (to clean and make sure everything is charred. I believe BKVP said this above?

However, there seems to be some differences of opinion regarding when to re-engage the cat? If the cat is still well within the active zone and everything is lit - why would I not re-engage the cat right away?

Ran stove on higher setting today while I was at work with fan on medium - came home and still had a lot of coals left in the bottom of the box. Since my goal is 12 hour reloads I did not want to put in a full load so I followed procedure above and threw 4 ugly pieces in so I can run the stove up for the next few hours before doing a full reload for the overnight burn. I am trying to get my wife comfortable doing this so she can extend burns if I have to work late or I am gone because it seems like the stove just works much better and gets less stress when it keeps going at a constant temperature? Is that correct? I am not a metallurgist or a BK expert by any stretch, but it is safe to assume that major temperature changes or shocks would shorten the life of the cat and/or the stove. If it is already up to temperature and you can get more fuel into it that seems better than allowing it to burn down where the cat is almost inactive before loading. Am I off base here?

 

[tarzan]

Read Ashfuls post, 1158. It describes the reason to leave the stove bypassed for a few minutes....better than I can lol

 

[jetsam]

I reload my stove on my schedule, not its schedule. Cat hasn't cracked or crumbled yet, though I give it a couple minutes of bypass before opening the door. (

The goal being to cool the cat to reduce thermal shock, I also run the fan. It seems like that would cool the cat more than anything (short of cutting off its fuel and air, which we've also done by opening the bypass).

I know the manual says no fan, but I haven't seen a good reason why the manual would say that.

In related news.... The weatherman says it's finally time to clean my glass!



About time!

 

[Ashful]

I still can't get these long burn times folks keep talking about. I mentioned one scenario above and last night a full load didn't make it 12 hours. 11.5 hours from the moment the fresh splits hit the hot coals until I walked up to it this morning; it was only about 1/4 into the inactive zone. Again, 16%-18% hardwood, most are 4-5" splits. We got down to ~20^F last night and it was a bid windy around 20mph. I left the stove at the 3rd dot from low with the fan on med/low.

As mentioned, the fan will make the t'stat think the stove is cooler, and thus open more. So, unless we know your fan speed (and they vary widely unit-to-unit, for the same knob setting), it's real tough gauge what "3rd dot from low" should really give you. What I can say is this:

Note your fan speed, and if that's where you want to run them, start making notes on t'stat knob setting vs. burn time. 3rd dot from low = 11.5 hours. Tonight, try burning at 2.5 dots from low, and record the time. Keep working your way down, until one morning you find a box full of half-burnt wood and a stalled cat. Then you'll know your stall point, and the knob settings for various burn times.

Your burn times will vary a bit with outside temperature, but only a little, and you can quickly learn the "windage" to put on the knob for varying temperatures. They will vary most with fan speed, so pick your fan speed before starting the experiment.

On that note, it takes very little fan speed to really move a lot of heat off these stoves. I hate hearing the fans, so I keep them near their lowest setting. It still makes a very noticeable difference vs. not having them on, and I don't see much point in having them blast away on high, except those occasions when I'm trying to squeak the last bit of heat out of coals.

the fan is great at putting out heat into the room but it significantly shortens my burn times. how much? well that depends on speed, but on higher speeds it can be as high as 40%. thats alot. in short, it does this by pulling cooler air over the stat cools it significantly and makes it think its cooler than it is. so it opens up and lets in more combustion air.

Excellent explanation, but there's no reason fans need to limit your burn time. Simply lower your thermostat to compensate for the "trick" your fan is playing on it. I can achieve the same burn times with or without fans, but they occur at different t'stat knob settings.

overall, my BK is doing what it is supposed to do, but my house simply needs a bit more at times.

That's why I love these stoves. My house needs more heat in the dead of winter than any two stoves can ever deliver, but with the BK's I can set them to load on my schedule (not the stove's schedule), and just let the boiler pick up the remaining slack. I set the BK in the newer wing of the house to run on 24 hour reload cycles, and the one in the older wing of the house for 12 hour reload cycles, and just keep feeding them on those intervals. The house holds 73F in the shoulder seasons, with the boiler t'stat set to 70F. When it gets real cold, the house drops to 70F and the boiler runs a bit here and there, but a heck of a lot less than it would if these stoves weren't here.

 

[Shayne]

I have read and re-read posts here about how to operate this stove and my takeaway was that you open the bypass for a couple of minutes, turn the air all the way up, and turn the fan off. Then you can open the door and reload on coals (if you have them) allowing the new wood to begin burning before locking the door and re-engaging the cat (if it is still active) giving the stove a good 20 minutes or longer to get real hot (to clean and make sure everything is charred. I believe BKVP said this above?

However, there seems to be some differences of opinion regarding when to re-engage the cat? If the cat is still well within the active zone and everything is lit - why would I not re-engage the cat right away?

Ran stove on higher setting today while I was at work with fan on medium - came home and still had a lot of coals left in the bottom of the box. Since my goal is 12 hour reloads I did not want to put in a full load so I followed procedure above and threw 4 ugly pieces in so I can run the stove up for the next few hours before doing a full reload for the overnight burn. I am trying to get my wife comfortable doing this so she can extend burns if I have to work late or I am gone because it seems like the stove just works much better and gets less stress when it keeps going at a constant temperature? Is that correct? I am not a metallurgist or a BK expert by any stretch, but it is safe to assume that major temperature changes or shocks would shorten the life of the cat and/or the stove. If it is already up to temperature and you can get more fuel into it that seems better than allowing it to burn down where the cat is almost inactive before loading. Am I off base here?

Hi

I am just asking questions here so please do take my post just as that. I do not leave the door open after reload but load as quickly as possible and close it (as Poindexter) since there is a healthy bed of red hot coals in the base of the stove. I just rack them forward (where the air will hit them), try to work the fine ash to the back corners (for longevity) and fill the stove. I close the by-pass right away since it is in the active zone and that is what the manual says, from an efficiency point of view it makes sense. I do leave it full air for 20 to 30 minutes (watch temps) to blow the carbon out sort of speak? This is the only different step I do from my old none cat stove, as in the past after it was loaded I would choke it down again right away. I'm thinking the big thing here is to have the bypass open before opening the door on a hot stove not to have cooler air rush through the cat, but then again I am new to these and have no idea if my cat is cracked already since it has been up and running ever since we picked it up only a bit over 2 weeks ago and it's too hot to check. I think I will shut it down over the holidays to check the cat and for gooey stuff or ice build up at the top of my chimney. Not because anything is wrong, as this stove has preformed well, just because of curiosity and to ensure we are having no problems from a safety point of view. I am an engineer and have been primarily heating with wood stoves since 1999, grew up with an insert, but am no expert on ceramic cats. I would not worry about shocking a steel stove, but still learning how tough these cats are. I see some of the full time burners here are now running steel cats, time will tell.

By the way my wife started to added 1 or 2 pieces to get the hang of it this week, I am always late, and to get her to our 8/9 pm 24 hour reloads. I suggest you show yours that the bypass "Clicks" when engaged .

Regards

 

[tarzan]

I can vaguely remember asking about hot reloads after I got my BK in the fall of 2014. I got a reply from Highbeam that went something like "well, yeah! You can do hot reloads. You can't always set and wait on these stoves to go inactive to reload".

Looking back at these last two pages, I'm glad that's the only response I got

 

[Poindexter]

Number one reason given for ceramic catalyst mechanical failure via fracture: steam impingement. Steelcats are much more durable in this regard, but many are still running ceramic cats. I also don't see much point in subjecting my 1000F cat to "cold" steam on reloads.

I thought of another reason to leave the bypass open a while on hot reloads. Visible snow or ice chunks on the splits. That will be a big spike of water vapor.

 

[Highbeam]

I can vaguely remember asking about hot reloads after I got my BK in the fall of 2014. I got a reply from Highbeam that went something like "well, yeah! You can do hot reloads. You can't always set and wait on these stoves to go inactive to reload".

Looking back at these last two pages, I'm glad that's the only response I got

I'm sitting here reading these posts and if you kind of squint your eyes a bit you will see that the bottom line is that you open the stat, open the bypass, open the door, load the stove, close the door, close the bypass, reset the stat. All you really need to know is don't open the door unless both the stat and bypass are open. The rest is just preference.

Don't worry about the cat. 95% of cat failures are from leaky door gaskets. Keep the door closed as much as possible.

It's fun and okay to sweat all the details but if you are a new owner it can be overwhelming and I feel can be counterproductive. These stoves are really easy to run and most of the things you can do to break them have been engineered out.

 

[Highbeam]

So I've been burning on 12 hour reloads this last several days since it's been cold and I've got to say I'm jealous of you guys that need this much heat on a regular basis. I load the stove fully on top of a pile of fuel remaining from the last load that takes up maybe 1/4 of the firebox volume. It's like I'm short shifting the stove, not full burn cycles.

The cat stays hot, the new fuel jumps into flames, the draft stays strong so no smoke spillage, steady heat output 24 hours a day. Partial reloads are a pretty nice way to go. If I had a king it would be great to always just fill up the top 1/2 of the stove with new wood every day. Described as "keeping her topped off".

Is that how you guys run your stoves in super cold places?

 

[tarzan]

So I've been burning on 12 hour reloads this last several days since it's been cold and I've got to say I'm jealous of you guys that need this much heat on a regular basis. I load the stove fully on top of a pile of fuel remaining from the last load that takes up maybe 1/4 of the firebox volume. It's like I'm short shifting the stove, not full burn cycles.

The cat stays hot, the new fuel jumps into flames, the draft stays strong so no smoke spillage, steady heat output 24 hours a day. Partial reloads are a pretty nice way to go. If I had a king it would be great to always just fill up the top 1/2 of the stove with new wood every day. Described as "keeping her topped off".

Is that how you guys run your stoves in super cold places?

12 hour reloads are normal here in the winter even though it's not super cold usually, we do get some cold weather. You've pretty much got it though. When it's super cold it takes flames to keep my place warm. As in, once the wood gets down to glowing coals it's not long before the stove just can't put out the heat to keep up with the demand during those coldest of days.

The worst part about reloading by constantly cycling fresh wood on top of a mound of hot coals is it tends to leave you with a huge amount of unburnt coals from previous loads smothered beneath the ashes of later loads. Once this mess of smothered coals begins to take up to much space in the stove your burn times get impracticality short. Then you have to hope for better weather that gives you a chance to gradually burn them down or just throw them out.

Coaling probably wouldn't be as much of an issue to you because of the differences in our available wood.

 

[Poindexter]

@Highbeam , yup.

 

[Tocramed]

As mentioned, the fan will make the t'stat think the stove is cooler, and thus open more. So, unless we know your fan speed (and they vary widely unit-to-unit, for the same knob setting), it's real tough gauge what "3rd dot from low" should really give you. What I can say is this:

Note your fan speed, and if that's where you want to run them, start making notes on t'stat knob setting vs. burn time. 3rd dot from low = 11.5 hours. Tonight, try burning at 2.5 dots from low, and record the time. Keep working your way down, until one morning you find a box full of half-burnt wood and a stalled cat. Then you'll know your stall point, and the knob settings for various burn times.

Your burn times will vary a bit with outside temperature, but only a little, and you can quickly learn the "windage" to put on the knob for varying temperatures. They will vary most with fan speed, so pick your fan speed before starting the experiment.

On that note, it takes very little fan speed to really move a lot of heat off these stoves. I hate hearing the fans, so I keep them near their lowest setting. It still makes a very noticeable difference vs. not having them on, and I don't see much point in having them blast away on high, except those occasions when I'm trying to squeak the last bit of heat out of coals.

Thanks Ashful, this helps and is pretty straight forward procedure.

 

[jetsam]

Tarzan, lay in a cord or two of pine. It doesn't need to season long, it burns short and hot, and it doesn't coal at all.

Any time I get too many oak coals- if it's warm outside, I just use the coals for heat; if it's cold, I throw some pine on top and burn it hot. When the pine is gone, so are the coals.

I also burn pine when I have a day off and don't mind feeding the stove more often, since there's more pine than oak to be had around here.