2016-17 Blaze King Performance Thread (Everything BK) Part 2

[webby3650]

Any guidance on a safe pressure to regulate the compressor? It's just a portable pancake style and one of those safety blower nozzles with the thumb button.

The cat looks fine from below but you can't really see very far into the cells due to the angle.

I just used a variable pressure nozzle, ran it low. I also run a shop vac with filter and a bag at the same time. It will capture most of the airborn debris. All the crap in my steel cat was all the way in the back, not visible at all.

 

[WoodyIsGoody]

We installed an Ashford 30.1 this summer and burned one break in fire. It is in our island cottage and has not been used since August.

In mid March we will be going to the island where the building and stove have been sitting unheated all winter. When we get there temperatures will likely be between 15*F and 40* F. I am wondering how I should go about heating the stove up to prevent damage to it or the firebrick. Thanks for your advice.

A cold stove can generally be fired up normally but if it was actually 15F I might build a small fire with small cedar splits (bypass open of course) before loading up and firing normally. But as long as the first load doesn't go into turbo-torch mode too soon after lighting you are probably fine. I would also blast the exterior with compressed air to blow off any accumulated dust before it burns on.

A bigger issue might be the off-gassing that new paint goes through because, if it's that cold, you might not want to open the windows.

I wonder if it's a good idea to use low pressure compressed air to blow dust off the catalyst at the beginning of each burn season? Sure, a good hot fire will clean it too although some dust residue might permanently bond to the active surfaces.

 

[kf6hap]

Usually, most of the "dirt", fly ash really, will accumulate on the very front surface of the cat and is easily vacuumed away. The same thing happens with air conditioning evaporator coils. They are of nearly identical construction. Vacuuming is far easier than trying to force the dirt all the way through to the other side, especially with a steelcat.

Do not use a brass gun barrel cleaner, if ceramic, as it will completely remove the catalytic compound. BKVP. Yes, somebody did it.

No chemicals, other than vinegar as it is proven safe and effective. Real distilled water with NO additives too.

The vinegar soak can wash away creosote "jacketing" and can etch off a relatively inactive layer of active catalytic compound exposing a new very active layer. The condar cleaning method has produced some very good results, I have read.

For reference 10,000 hours is a year and a month of 24/7 burning.

 

[Highbeam]

Usually, most of the "dirt", fly ash really, will accumulate on the very front surface of the cat and is easily vacuumed away. The same thing happens with air conditioning evaporator coils. They are of nearly identical construction. Vacuuming is far easier than trying to force the dirt all the way through to the other side, especially with a steelcat.

Do not use a brass gun barrel cleaner, if ceramic, as it will completely remove the catalytic compound. BKVP. Yes, somebody did it.

No chemicals, other than vinegar as it is proven safe and effective. Real distilled water with NO additives too.

The vinegar soak can wash away creosote "jacketing" and can etch off a relatively inactive layer of active catalytic compound exposing a new very active layer. The condar cleaning method has produced some very good results, I have read.

For reference 10,000 hours is a year and a month of 24/7 burning.

I will vacuum first, then blow, then vacuum. For the blowing I will use a rubber hose on the end of the blow gun to really concentrate the "blast" into a small area forced down the cells. Despite the instructions on both Condar and Applied Ceramic's websites I do not plan on shoving anything down the cells to clear them out. Especially not a bore brush!

I reloaded again last night (wow, short burn times) and the thing was still smoking steady blue this morning after 11 hours.

My shop vacs both have the bag and filter. As I clear the cells I will have to just trust that they are clear since I can't see into the cells. I'm hoping that the blast of debris will make it obvious.

Earlier in my life I bought and ran a small bulldozer for several years clearing brush. Dozers have engine fans that blow forward out of the grill away from the operator. The transmission oil would get hot after a few hours and I finally took apart all of the radiators and found that they were packed with chaffe from leaves, dirt, pine needles, etc. Nice of the manufacturer International to hinge the radiators on the bottom to make it easy to swing them down for cleaning. After that the engine fan became a hurricane fan and it never got hot again. I'm hoping to blow out the cat for a similar improvement!

We burn 9 months out of the year and it's been almost exactly 2 years of service on this cat. So entirely possible that I've just used it up.

 

[kf6hap]

Yes, you might have the hours racked up but a Condar cat wash has worked wonderfully for others in my past readings. It is kind of like resurfacing wooden floors, you get so many times before you are staring at floor joists.It might be possible to raise the bypass door and shine an LED flashlight through the cat to see if it is truly blocked deep in.

 

[edyit]

would something like this work better than an air compressor? don't know if you're concerned about how much psi going through the cat, or if that's even anything to worry about.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DB8NSG6/?tag=hearthamazon-20

 

[kf6hap]

I have communicated with Condar and asked if a spray bottle of distilled water could be used to clean a steelcat without harm?. The response was yes, you can with no fear of harm but it probably won't do much.

I If it is packed internally with fly ash this might be quite productive.

I would qualify this, if it is a ceramic cat it should be baked at a low temp to drive out any water entrapped within the ceramic substrate as water will convert to steam and explode away portions. Water expands 1,200X at atmospheric pressure. The steelcat does not have this problem but I would attempt to dry it as much as possible by vacuuming.

It should be remembered, the coatings of these precious metals are extremely thin and fragile. A seemingly light air stream can be in the 100s of FPS range. As for me, I will vacuum only with a very soft brush to lightly disturb the front surface fly ash. Soft pipe cleaners tor ceramic cats are ok. Just don't get tricky and chuck it up to a drill motor. Anything beyond that and the cat probably needs a full Condar treatment, in my estimation.

I could be wrong on some these points but I believe them to be generally true.

 

[Woody Stover]

The vinegar soak can wash away creosote "jacketing" and can etch off a relatively inactive layer of active catalytic compound exposing a new very active layer.

Interesting. Got a link to where you found that out?

 

[Highbeam]

would something like this work better than an air compressor? don't know if you're concerned about how much psi going through the cat, or if that's even anything to worry about.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DB8NSG6/?tag=hearthamazon-20

The "air in a can" computer dusters are reportedly about 70 psi at normal temperature shooting through a small tube. I can easily regulate my compressed air down to 70 psi. The issue seems to be air velocity though since 70 psi blowing through different sized holes can generate different velocities that might tear off the catalyst coating. I am having a hard time imagining whether a bigger tube with 70 psi source air is faster than a smaller tube with 70 psi source air. Seems like it would be the same.

Even Woodstock wants you to shove pipe cleaners down the cells to clear ash. Seems all brands know about this clogging issue but the two big guys, Woodstock and BK, do not tell you to use vinegar. I do wish that BK cats were as easy to remove and replace as Woodstock cats. Just to get this thing on the bench would be helpful.

For those of you that have had clogged cats, was it the whole cat evenly or just a portion? Did your smoke emissions tip you off or was it low output?

My BK is new enough that it has a curtain of steel hanging vertically between the cat and the flue exit. Newer kings have this too. This means that it's almost impossible to shine a light from the backside. Maybe on the very bottom.

I have swept the face of the cat clean many times with my dedicated paint brush. The light brown debris easily swept off. If you have swept off the face of the cat like this can you not imagine that an equal amount of junk is inside the cat?

Which source was the one that detailed the vinegar spray bottle technique? You just spray the acid into the installed cat and then neutralize it with sprayed water. That might be easier given the cost and difficulty of removing a BK cat. The acid would puddle up inside the dome though and probably rot out the bypass gasket channel.

 

[Highbeam]

Whoa. Read @Poindexter 's story on this page from last year's BK thread and his description of the issue matched mine very well.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...rformance-thread-everything-bk.145814/page-46

So he got a new cat after burning 14% spruce which is what I'm doing. It was also clogged and even a chunk of the cat fell off!

 

[Woody Stover]

don't know if you're concerned about how much psi going through the cat, or if that's even anything to worry about.

It certainly is something to be concerned about:
(broken link removed to http://www.blazeking.com/EN/general-care.html)
"DO NOT Use compressed air to clean the combustor"
(broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/pdffiles/Catalytic%20Combustor%20Tips.pdf)
"It is not a good idea to clean your combustor with an air compressor unless you can ensure very low pressure. Using high pressure air to blow the cell free of fly ash buildup can also blow off the precious metal coating inside the cells. However, the compressed air that comes in a can(for cleaning camera and computer parts) can be used very effectively."

the two big guys, Woodstock and BK, do not tell you to use vinegar....Which source was the one that detailed the vinegar spray bottle technique?

I don't know if the procedure is detailed on a combustor website or not, but..... http://blog.woodstove.com/2014/01/mid-winter-woodstove-maintenance.html

spray the acid into the installed cat and then neutralize it with sprayed water. That might be easier given the cost and difficulty of removing a BK cat. The acid would puddle up inside the dome though and probably rot out the bypass gasket channel.

Yeah, I would just go ahead and take the cat out. When I simmered canned cats out, the interam gasket stayed intact, but that's different than loose interam gasket in your 'dome' setup.

.

 

[tarzan]

I'd probably order a new cat, you will need it eventually if not now and the price is reasonable.

You have cat gasket material on hand, right? If so, it shouldn't be a problem to pull the cat, set it on the bench where you can do a thorough job clearing the cells, then give it a try. If it works, great! If not you'll have one too replace it with in a couple days.

 

[Ashful]

It should be remembered, the coatings of these precious metals are extremely thin and fragile. A seemingly light air stream can be in the 100s of FPS range. As for me, I will vacuum only with a very soft brush to lightly disturb the front surface fly ash. Soft pipe cleaners tor ceramic cats are ok. Just don't get tricky and chuck it up to a drill motor. Anything beyond that and the cat probably needs a full Condar treatment, in my estimation.

I could be wrong on some these points but I believe them to be generally true.

Ditto. I would not use compressed air, unless vacuuming failed. In my case, a once over with a soft dusting brush on the vacuum got it totally clean, and back to normal operation. Too many fears here of blowing the deposited metals off the substrate, with compressed air.

 

[Ashful]

So the 6-10 yr. life is just for cabins with occasional use?

Yes. It's based on "average" usage, across the thousands of units sold per year, on a 10,000 hour product life. Highbeam says he's running 24/7 for 9 months out of the year, so quite above average, and even beyond almost all "full-time" burners. He'll rack up 10k hours every 1.5 years, at that pace.

Still not a bad deal. $186 for a new cat still means ~$100/year, which is well worth the oil and electrons saved, or even wood savings over other stoves, at his usage rates.

 

[BKVP]

Two things to remember:

Average lifespan of a combustor is calculated based upon numbers seen from ALL manufacturers stoves that purchase from ACI. They can confirm this includes designs that may not be as protective as others against exceeding combustor temperatures.

Second, we respect that you may receive instructions or support from a supplier. However, we cannot support the process of spraying any fluids into our designs for purposes of cleaning a combustor. We have a document with the specific process that should be followed. Commenting on how something should be done on one of our products by another party should not be taken seriously.

 

[Highbeam]

We have a document with the specific process that should be followed.

I'm looking but no luck finding the compressed air in a can guidance. Or, instead, can you please point us to your preferred cleaning procedure? Thank you.

I would be happy to get this thing working well again. The face of the cat, and the back, are clean. It's the internal pluggage I am wanting to clean in place.

 

[Woody Stover]

we respect that you may receive instructions or support from a supplier....We have a document with the specific process that should be followed.

Got a link?

Commenting on how something should be done on one of our products by another party should not be taken seriously.

What are you referring to here?

 

[BKVP]

I'm looking but no luck finding the compressed air in a can guidance. Or, instead, can you please point us to your preferred cleaning procedure? Thank you.

I would be happy to get this thing working well again. The face of the cat, and the back, are clean. It's the internal pluggage I am wanting to clean in place.

I will post here in day or so...thank you.

 

[begreen]

Yes. It's based on "average" usage, across the thousands of units sold per year, on a 10,000 hour product life. Highbeam says he's running 24/7 for 9 months out of the year, so quite above average, and even beyond almost all "full-time" burners. He'll rack up 10k hours every 1.5 years, at that pace.

Still not a bad deal. $186 for a new cat still means ~$100/year, which is well worth the oil and electrons saved, or even wood savings over other stoves, at his usage rates.

What is considered average? I average 5 months 24/7 burning so at that rate I would get less than 3 yrs out of a cat, correct?

 

[Highbeam]

What is considered average? I average 5 months 24/7 burning so at that rate I would get less than 3 yrs out of a cat, correct?

And you're a furnace person, a part time burner. Those of us that burn full time get to 10,000 much sooner.

I think BKVP was trying to say that 10,000 hours is an average life expectancy that the manufacturers publish. It is likely to their advantage to be less optimistic and also the average will include low quality cat stove brands and old designs that are more prone to shorten cat life. In other words, I bet he thinks that the BK line is engineered so well that the average BK combustor lasts something longer like for example, 15000 hours.

 

[begreen]

No, we are usually 24/7 burners in the winter. Only when it gets exceptionally mild above about 48F do we run on the heat pump. Last year was an exception due to the unusually warm winter. This winter the heat pump has been mostly idle since the end of October except for a few sunny days. Even then we are burning about 18 hrs of the day with a fire in the morning and then again at night.

Isn't there an EPA required 6 yr life for catalysts? I don't recall that being in hours, but will check. I would expect most east coast burners to run up 3500-4000 hrs a year. If the life expectancy is 10,000 hrs that would mean only 1667 hrs a year for those 6 years.

 

[Tumpin' Wood]

A cold stove can generally be fired up normally but if it was actually 15F I might build a small fire with small cedar splits (bypass open of course) before loading up and firing normally. But as long as the first load doesn't go into turbo-torch mode too soon after lighting you are probably fine. I would also blast the exterior with compressed air to blow off any accumulated dust before it burns on.

A bigger issue might be the off-gassing that new paint goes through because, if it's that cold, you might not want to open the windows.

I wonder if it's a good idea to use low pressure compressed air to blow dust off the catalyst at the beginning of each burn season? Sure, a good hot fire will clean it too although some dust residue might permanently bond to the active surfaces.

Thanks WoodyIsGoody. We will clean up the stove and burn a low fire until the sides warm up. Then we'll add more wood, open the windows and let it burn hot for a couple of hours. After that, turn it down and close up the windows and heat the place up.

 

[lsucet]

All what i found was this at BK site. Some interstate details here including the use of barometric damper if necessary

. (broken link removed to http://blazeking.com/PDF/Wood%20Stove%20TroubleShooting%20Guide.pdf)

 

[Highbeam]

All what i found was this at BK site. Some interstate details here including the use of barometric damper if necessary

. (broken link removed to http://blazeking.com/PDF/Wood%20Stove%20TroubleShooting%20Guide.pdf)

I found:

1) do not run water through the cat
2) Do not use compressed air

 

[lsucet]

I found:

1) do not run water through the cat
2) Do not use compressed air

Yeah, i think that we will have to wait for BKVP