2014-2015 Blaze King Performance thread (Everything BK)#2

[bobdog2o02]

You can maybe do 24, on the lowest setting, but most likely have a cold reload.

 

[alforit]

It's not like there's an hour meter on our stoves. Has anybody used the warranty and jumped through all of the hoops?

Didn't you look ? Its built in to a little hidden panel on the back of the stove...

 

[Idahonative]

I guess we should read the fine print on that 10 year warranty from BK. How do they define "end of life" of the combustor?

Different subject, on Ashford 30 with vs. without blower, what kind of burn times can I expect? I assume the advertised 30 hour max is only without blower, as running the blower cools thermostat, and thus prompts stove to open air just a bit? I thought I had seen one of you post a 12 hour max with blower running?

Also, what is the impact of having a blower installed but not running it? Does the blower impede the natural convective path, or in any other way affect performance when it's not running?

 

[Idahonative]

That's good to know , I thought the 10 year warranty was only for the new steel cats from Blaze king.

We have a 2014 King Ultra and it has a ceramic cat.

 

[Poindexter]

Leave it alone!

Yessir.

In other news, for long burn times in shoulder season, turn off the darn fan kit. St00pid n00b.

Finally, I tried the durn trapdoor to the ash drawer tonight. It took a bit longer than the shovel and dump method, but I don't need to dust the living room, so net time measurement its faster for me to use the trapdoor, go figure.

 

[Poindexter]

Joful, I was fooling with fake BTUs, which I am going to go back and edit to be "wife warming units". With the fans running, I have hard time getting the stove to put out less than 1 WWU (wife warming unit) per hour, but I can run it up to 4.5 WWU/ hr.

I just turned my fan kit off today for the first time since like October, I expect to see long burn times again, at less than 1 WWU per hour.

 

[Poindexter]

I think having the fan kit installed but not running it makes zero difference, zip, nada, zilch. Except for the aesthetics of the power cord for the fan kit coming out of your colonial hearth to the nearest electrical receptacle of course ;-)

 

[begreen]

The ten year warranty applies to my ceramic cat too.

Be careful with the ten year warranty. It is not a warranty against a drop off in performance it is a warranty against a defective cat. As we know, a cat is not defective if it loses 25% of it's efficiency after 12000 hours which is only like three years. What I expect to happen is that the cat will be due for replacement before 10 years due to reduced performance but not due to a defect. Warranty is of little value.

There are some pretty ugly hoops to jump through to collect on that warranty anyway if you actually read it.

The 10 yr warranty may be for defects, but according to the presentation the 6 yr. EPA warranty requirement is for performance. At least that is the way I currently understand it, though maybe I have it wrong. This is what was presented at HPBA that I am referring to. Go to the Presentation section here: (broken link removed)

The EPA standards appear to be set to assure performance over time. Otherwise you could have an EPA certified cat stove that in a few years was completely out of range of certification.

"All catalyst used in an approved EPA wood-burning appliance must receive approval from EPA.
Test result cannot show an increase from the appliances certified emission rating of more than 2.5 g/hr of particulate matter to demonstrate catalyst equivalency."
"The anticipate operational life is 12,000 to 50,000 hours."

 

[webby3650]

It's not like there's an hour meter on our stoves. Has anybody used the warranty and jumped through all of the hoops?

Yes, a few times. There were no hoops to jump through. File Warranty claim, install new one, mail old one back.
Of course you will likely need a good dealer to get it done quickly.
Now, if you were blowing through cats every few years it would not be so easy. This would mean you have an issue with your set-up, they would want that addressed.

 

[rdust]

I thought that was for the ceramic cats. At least they were in this presentation. But these were 3 cords per year stoves.
Perhaps that is the difference?
View attachment 154651

That's my guess, sounds like those stoves were used in the Pacific NW. Aren't you guys cutting grass already? I've pushed anywhere from 4-5 cords a year through mine for 4 seasons that puts me at the mark or beyond for their high end example. My stack is still clean, I can tell that the performance isn't what it used to be though. Maybe I only notice since I typically burn my stove on a lower setting with no flames in the stove, now I notice the t-stat has to open more to create the same heat I used to get with a dark stove.

 

[rdust]

"The anticipate operational life is 12,000 to 50,000 hours."

They may as well just say they have no idea, that's some range don't you think!?

 

[bobdog2o02]

They may as well just say they have no idea, that's some range don't you think!?

Probably depends a lot on the operator, not every bk owner is so fascinated that they come to this site to perfect their operating technique.

Ex. Opening loading door before allowing cat to cool.....

 

[Dieselhead]

Yes, a few times. There were no hoops to jump through. File Warranty claim, install new one, mail old one back.
Of course you will likely need a good dealer to get it done quickly.
Now, if you were blowing through cats every few years it would not be so easy. This would mean you have an issue with your set-up, they would want that addressed.

What were the issues specifically?

 

[begreen]

Probably depends a lot on the operator, not every bk owner is so fascinated that they come to this site to perfect their operating technique.

Ex. Opening loading door before allowing cat to cool.....

Agreed, this is probably true for most cat stove owners. How would the average user know this? Is it in the manual? Seasoned owners that do know this here are reporting more towards the 12K hrs. it appears.

 

[BKVP]

That seems to counter what BK is saying. They are reporting less degradation and over a longer period of time.

I would like to clarify that Condar purchases combustors from suppliers, such as Applied Ceramics (www.Firecatcombustors.com) Applied Ceramics and Clariant (use to be Sud Chemie and before that Corning) are the two formost experts in this field of combustors for wood stoves.

Additionally, EPA asked for a cat study to be performed by a third party lab. That study showed that in specific brands of cat stoves tested, the life of the combustor (as far as particulate is concerned) is just over 10 years of substantial particulate destruction. a cat that was 9.5 years of age was burning only 1 gr/hr dirtier as I recall.

The "hours" qouted by certain suppliers is a very dated figure and has not changed as the technology has. The most recent study was the one cited above.

Efficiency or burn characteristic changes can be linked to many other causes. Changes in weather and the effect that has on draft, fuel (wood cut from different trees over many years), gasket seals etc...

 

[BKVP]

Yes, I know the warranty which is why I am surprised to hear people talking about replacing cats every 4-5 years due to greatly diminished performance. I thought that was a thing of the past.

Some Tim the Toolman stuff going on here!

 

[begreen]

Nah, just trying to make sure I speak correctly when recommending a cat stove. Not having owned one I have to go by other's experience.

 

[BKVP]

The past few winters have been pretty cold, wonder if the acumulated run time over some actual 4 year burns might be closer to the projected accumulated burns for an average 6-10 years?

As you burn wood, deposits are formed OVER the precious metals (catalyst). First the substrate is made (either stainless or ceramic) and then it is coated with a wash coat. The wash coat helps with increasing surface area and also gives the precious metals adherence.

After years of burniing (varies with amount of fuel burned) there is an overplating and that overplating will take place.

Washing the combustor with vinegar and distilled water creates an acidic wash that will remove the build up on top of the precious metals.

Often, users will try this process and sometimes they drop or otherwise damage their combustors. That is why we do not encourage too frequent handling or cleaning. In house, we have found 6-8 (again varies with amount of fuel burned) is ideal for a "wash cleaning".

 

[BKVP]

The ten year warranty applies to my ceramic cat too.

Be careful with the ten year warranty. It is not a warranty against a drop off in performance it is a warranty against a defective cat. As we know, a cat is not defective if it loses 25% of it's efficiency after 12000 hours which is only like three years. What I expect to happen is that the cat will be due for replacement before 10 years due to reduced performance but not due to a defect. Warranty is of little value.

There are some pretty ugly hoops to jump through to collect on that warranty anyway if you actually read it.

Highbeam,

If the combustor fails structurally, we replace it. The 10-year extended warranty applies to the OEM cat and NOT subsequent combustors. We figure everyone could have a mistake or not have read the manual or not read these posts, so we are willing to help through that learning curve. As for decrease in efficiency, read my comments is this thread.

Thank you
Chris

 

[Idahonative]

As you burn wood, deposits are formed OVER the precious metals (catalyst). First the substrate is made (either stainless or ceramic) and then it is coated with a wash coat. The wash coat helps with increasing surface area and also gives the precious metals adherence.

After years of burniing (varies with amount of fuel burned) there is an overplating and that overplating will take place.

Washing the combustor with vinegar and distilled water creates an acidic wash that will remove the build up on top of the precious metals.

Often, users will try this process and sometimes they drop or otherwise dmage their combustors. That is why we do not encourage too frequent handling or cleaning. In house, we have found 6-8 (again varies with amount of fuel burned) is ideal for a "wash cleaning".

I've read many different posts that talk about this vinegar and water cleaning of the cat. That process isn't mentioned in our BKK manual. It says to use a soft brush and brush off the cat face if needed. It also says, "A nice hot fire will usually prove to be the best method of cleaning the combustor of deposits."

We turn our stove up to high at least once a day and let the cat temp get into the high temp range. Seems to be keeping everything clean. I personally would not want to take the cat out unless absolutely necessary. Maybe in a few years, we will have to do this vinegar and water wash?

 

[begreen]

So to clarify for the folks here with 3-4 yr old combustors that maybe approaching 12K hrs on them...

Mine started like that in its second season. It doesn't really affect performance. I still had some clean 40+ hour burns last spring, and it looked much worse than that. It is starting to get pretty sluggish now after almost four seasons, and I'm pretty sure the low burn performance isn't gonna be there.

Would you recommend jeff_t carefully pickle the cat at this point?

 

[webby3650]

What were the issues specifically?

Usually a bad door gasket. I've had 2 that have liners that exceed 30', they overdraft and have to learn to use the stove differently. IE: running on low most of the time.

 

[Stump shot]

Well, the blower would help move more heat into the room faster, but with the stoves going 24/7, I'd debate the actual need. More importantly, I if I can't get 24 hour burn cycles out of one of these Ashfords, then I'll probably buy a different stove. Not that the other stove would get me 24 hour burns, but if I'm going to have to load both stoves multiple times per day, then the advantages of the BK pretty much vaporize for me. I'm looking to do 12 hour cycles on one, and 24 hour cycles on the other.

Tomorrow I will try to get a 24 hour burn with the fan and stove on low. Normally when the fan is running I reload every 12 hours.

 

[Highbeam]

Often, users will try this process and sometimes they drop or otherwise damage their combustors. That is why we do not encourage too frequent handling or cleaning. In house, we have found 6-8 (again varies with amount of fuel burned) is ideal for a "wash cleaning".

Thank you Chris. 6-8 years or cords? I have no intention of removing the cat for cleaning or replacement until it really needs it.

 

[jeff_t]

So to clarify for the folks here with 3-4 yr old combustors that maybe approaching 12K hrs on them...

Would you recommend jeff_t carefully pickle the cat at this point?

I'm a bit afraid to take it out at this point, without a replacement on hand. I'm afraid handling it will do more harm than good. As long as it lights off and the gasket is good, it's staying in there.

Hopefully it's a non-issue for me. I didn't plan on being in here this far thru the winter. The weather the last couple of months has made it really hard to sell a house.