jatoxico
Minister of Fire
I don't even know what it's supposed to look like and it looks bad 
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.Yikes... 1035F on outside of stove!
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Not sure how familiar you are with the F12, but it sounds like you know the innards pretty well. The cover actually looked much better than I expected, as I had expected to find it knifed in half by the ridge in the rear burn plate, which holds that cover in place. That's what had happened to the cat chamber cover on both stoves, when I was running the Condar ceramic cat's with their problematic expanding gasket.
As to what happened, I haven't gotten the stove all apart yet. I had just gotten the remains of the cat pulled out when the inlaws showed up, and decided I really didn't want to do a stove autopsy with my FIL watching over my shoulder giving advice. So, I headed out to move a cord of wood up the house, and got another half cord split and stacked. A good day!
Fired up the older F12 at the other end of the house, and intentionally worked the cat up to 1600F on a small load, for a test. I measured the "hot spots" on the rear sides (where this one was glowing) at 650F, with the cat at 1650F. So, I see the same 1000F delta between cat probe and this particular location on the outside of the stove, as I had seen when we hit 1035F (cat probe was reading OL for > 2000F). Maybe the high outside temps were not indicative of a refractory failure, as I had thought.
I'll be honoring the beer award... just gotta make sure I'm sending it to the right party, first.
This cat has been regularly hitting 1800F, and so this excursion to 2000+ is not that far out of the norm. I guess I need to be asking the pro's here (or maybe at Jotul), what I should be doing to tone it down, a bit. Reduce draft? Restrict inlet air?
Both of my F12's show the cat getting up pretty well in temperature (1700 - 1800F is a common peak early in the cycle), so I suspect it is more inlet air dependent, than draft dependent. I recall Bro Bart having similar issues on his non-cat, and partially covering one of the air inlets with a magnet, and wonder if I should consider the same.
I wish I would have had an IR thermometer when my Leyden went crazy. The entire back was glowing, including the flue collar! There were no active flames in the firebox and the primary air was on low when it happened. It was out of my control...
I took it completely apart to inspect, there was no damage at all. I replaced all the combustion parts with a "revised" combustion package that was miraculously available after we reported the problem.
I took it completely apart to inspect, there was no damage at all. I replaced all the combustion parts with a "revised" combustion package that was miraculously available after we reported the problem.
I've hit over 1,000°F stove top (non cat stove) a couple times just from forgetting about the stove upon reload... But then when I got a second IR gun this year since my HF one was a POS, I'm pretty sure my first IR gun was 100° off or more. Nothing on outside was glowing, but front two burn tubes and front edge of baffle (steel) were.
Well, I guess I'm going to need a new cat in short order. Worth pursuing a warranty claim? This cat is only 3 months old, as I purchased two new ones in October, but I suspect this may be a "non-warranty issue".
Can't go back to the Condars (which also have only one season on them), as they damaged my stoves (expanding gasket issue).
Can't go back to the Condars (which also have only one season on them), as they damaged my stoves (expanding gasket issue).
Let the second Firelight go out today, so I could open, inspect, and rule out one cause of the failure. Found that one had a melted steel band around the cat, as well. This stove never displayed any super-high cat or outside temps, that I have seen, or even any sign of going hot (it's ultra-tame on such a short pipe).
We are back on 100% oil heat as of today. Cause of failure still undetermined. Plan is to rebuild one stove with parts I already have, and try to find a Jotul OEM cat to finish out this season. Calling Jotul tomorrow, to run these experiences by them, and get what feedback I can on this.
Brief history:
Fall 2011: Took ownership of first Firelight 12. Had original cat chamber, and I believe the original 19-year old OEM cat, which showed no physical signs of damage. Ran the stove in this configuration my first several months.
Winter 2012: Squirrel came down chimney, and destroyed refractory catalytic chamber. I replaced chamber and all other refractory components, and installed a new Condar SteelCat, which went from severely over-reactive at first to fairly mild over the remaining weeks of that season.
Summer 2012: Had insulated 6" liners installed in both my fireplaces, one on existing Firelight 12, and the other in anticipation of installing a second stove.
Fall 2012: Continued use of first Firelight with Condar SteelCat, now on an insulated liner. Acquired a second Firelight 12, and preparing for installation.
Winter 2013: Running two stoves, noticed new Firelight on 25 ft. chimney lit off much more easily than old Firelight on 15 ft. chimney. Eventually, started having problems with both stoves lighting off.
Summer 2013: Found both Condar SteelCats severely deformed. Spoke with Condar tech, who said they've had an almost 100% failure rate of those cats in downdraft stoves (i.e. Jotul, VC).
Fall 2013: Replaced both Condar SteelCats with Condar ceramic cats. Had concerns over Condar's advertised expanding gasket, but Condar tech assured me this cat model did not have an expanding gasket.
Winter 2014: Ran both stoves entire 2013 / 2014 season on Condar ceramic cats with no apparent troubles, aside from running out of wood before the season was done. Life was good.
Summer 2014: Discovered the gasket on both Condar ceramic cats had expanded (as advertised!), and broken the refractory cat chamber cover on both stoves.
Fall 2014: Replaced both Condar ceramic cat's with Applied Ceramics cat's, and replaced both cat chamber covers. Both chambers showed signs of stress where Condar cat's had pushed into them, but no obvious breakage / complete failure.
Winter 2015: Found both Applied Ceramic cat's severely damaged due to high heat.
Ideas?
We are back on 100% oil heat as of today. Cause of failure still undetermined. Plan is to rebuild one stove with parts I already have, and try to find a Jotul OEM cat to finish out this season. Calling Jotul tomorrow, to run these experiences by them, and get what feedback I can on this.
Brief history:
Fall 2011: Took ownership of first Firelight 12. Had original cat chamber, and I believe the original 19-year old OEM cat, which showed no physical signs of damage. Ran the stove in this configuration my first several months.
Winter 2012: Squirrel came down chimney, and destroyed refractory catalytic chamber. I replaced chamber and all other refractory components, and installed a new Condar SteelCat, which went from severely over-reactive at first to fairly mild over the remaining weeks of that season.
Summer 2012: Had insulated 6" liners installed in both my fireplaces, one on existing Firelight 12, and the other in anticipation of installing a second stove.
Fall 2012: Continued use of first Firelight with Condar SteelCat, now on an insulated liner. Acquired a second Firelight 12, and preparing for installation.
Winter 2013: Running two stoves, noticed new Firelight on 25 ft. chimney lit off much more easily than old Firelight on 15 ft. chimney. Eventually, started having problems with both stoves lighting off.
Summer 2013: Found both Condar SteelCats severely deformed. Spoke with Condar tech, who said they've had an almost 100% failure rate of those cats in downdraft stoves (i.e. Jotul, VC).
Fall 2013: Replaced both Condar SteelCats with Condar ceramic cats. Had concerns over Condar's advertised expanding gasket, but Condar tech assured me this cat model did not have an expanding gasket.
Winter 2014: Ran both stoves entire 2013 / 2014 season on Condar ceramic cats with no apparent troubles, aside from running out of wood before the season was done. Life was good.
Summer 2014: Discovered the gasket on both Condar ceramic cats had expanded (as advertised!), and broken the refractory cat chamber cover on both stoves.
Fall 2014: Replaced both Condar ceramic cat's with Applied Ceramics cat's, and replaced both cat chamber covers. Both chambers showed signs of stress where Condar cat's had pushed into them, but no obvious breakage / complete failure.
Winter 2015: Found both Applied Ceramic cat's severely damaged due to high heat.
Ideas?
Tenn Dave
Minister of Fire
Wow, it sounds like you have gone above and beyond. Will be interesting to hear what Jotul says.
Depends on the tech. One of their senior tech's is very good about answering any and all questions, and is actually quite a fan of the old Firelight 12.
The newer ones... not so much.
Time for some Scotch.
Soooo... any thoughts about a new stove? I would love to see a BK Princess in that fireplace 
bobdog2o02
Minister of Fire
Soooo... any thoughts about a new stove? I would love to see a BK Princess in that fireplace
Lol, KING BABY
Given the period of the house the only option I suspect would be the BK Ashford.
Backroom conversations on that very subject began earlier this evening. This will completely blow my cover, in my wife's eyes, of this wood heating thing being any sort of "money saving" operation.
There are several obstacles, not the least of which is getting thru the rest of this heating season with what I have. I hate the idea of giving up on these old Jotuls, but it may be time.
Poindexter
Minister of Fire
What I hear you saying is the cat is held in place by a gasket that is held in place by refractory mortar or refractory cement, the swelling gasket cracked the refractory, and then you had some combustion products going through the cat and other combustion products going through the crack in the refractory, bypassing the cat, heating up the flue, increasing the draft and overheating the whole works?
Yes?
Wow. I can see rebuilding one of them with the parts you own, but I think I would be done with those stoves as soon as time allows.
Look forward to contributing to your shopping thread in the fullness of time. I have been thinking about posting up a mid season review of my Ashford 30, but there are some holes in my data I am willing to fill once at the end of the season, not twice.
Yes?
Wow. I can see rebuilding one of them with the parts you own, but I think I would be done with those stoves as soon as time allows.
Look forward to contributing to your shopping thread in the fullness of time. I have been thinking about posting up a mid season review of my Ashford 30, but there are some holes in my data I am willing to fill once at the end of the season, not twice.
Okay, I did something stupid and threw away the piece of paper where I had written the direct number for Jotul North America tech support. Can someone PM it to me, if they have it? I know I've sent it to a few forum members here, but can't find it in my own PM's now. Do we have a PM search feature?
Autopsy took place today. It does not appear the expanding cat gasket was the cause, after all, as the chamber was not broken in any way that could possibly lead to this. There were some minor fissures in the chamber in the area where the cat expanded, but these were along the same paths as the large primary fuel inlets to the chamber, so not of any consequence.
The cause appears to have been one of two things:
1. I found all of the gaskets between the firebox and cat chamber were missing, presumably from someone having this stove apart before I purchased it in 2012. These would be the gaskets behind the inner fireback and damper frame assembly, separating the firebox from the cat chamber. I'm honestly not sure why these should matter, as there are several other air paths between firebox and cat chamber. However, knowing what an enormous PITA they are to install, I'm sure Jotul would not be using them if not absolutely necessary. I have been running the stove without these gaskets for two years, and have never had trouble maintaining desired stovetop temps, but my cat has often run hot in this stove.
2. Operator error: Perfect storm of a very large load of medium oak and ash splits, and perhaps I needed to let the load gas out at higher firebox temps, before turning it down low.
So, who gets the beer?
The cause appears to have been one of two things:
1. I found all of the gaskets between the firebox and cat chamber were missing, presumably from someone having this stove apart before I purchased it in 2012. These would be the gaskets behind the inner fireback and damper frame assembly, separating the firebox from the cat chamber. I'm honestly not sure why these should matter, as there are several other air paths between firebox and cat chamber. However, knowing what an enormous PITA they are to install, I'm sure Jotul would not be using them if not absolutely necessary. I have been running the stove without these gaskets for two years, and have never had trouble maintaining desired stovetop temps, but my cat has often run hot in this stove.
2. Operator error: Perfect storm of a very large load of medium oak and ash splits, and perhaps I needed to let the load gas out at higher firebox temps, before turning it down low.
So, who gets the beer?
... or two.
I started a companion thread to this, about how to cut down 20 cords of 20" length splits. The Ashford spec's 16" preferred, 18" maximum. Opinions vary on how I could handle this transition. My Jotuls take up to 22" splits, so I've been cutting mostly 20 - 21 inch lengths.
I started a companion thread to this, about how to cut down 20 cords of 20" length splits. The Ashford spec's 16" preferred, 18" maximum. Opinions vary on how I could handle this transition. My Jotuls take up to 22" splits, so I've been cutting mostly 20 - 21 inch lengths.
Holy crap that is a lot of wood to cut down, man that kinda puts a dent into the decision. That would be a mess load of time and liability to cut 3-4" off each split no matter how you do it.
Maybe an OWB is in your future
Maybe an OWB is in your future
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