Woodstock's new stove; some updates

[webby3650]

I've used a Woodstock Fireview 205 for the last two seasons.

Cool, any others in the past?

 

[charly]

Brian, boy are you going to have fun and be heating your house at the same time! I can feel your excitement! How nice your going to be working so close with Woodstock... They are some very fun people! Never met such people who seem to be always happy... they must just love their stoves as much as we do

 

[BrianK]

Cool, any others in the past?

We heated our parents' home with a Buderus wood boiler for years, but that probably doesn't count. It was similar to this one:

The Woodstock Fireview is my first woodstove. I also have a Baker's Choice wood cook stove that has not been installed yet. Given the cook top and higher BTUs on the new Union/Steal Hybrid I might not even need it.

 

[Machria]

I bet when you get up in the morning there will be more wood in the stove than was in it before you went to bed.

LOL!

I am so glad that BK started publishing the high output, but then also publishes a more reasonable constant BTU ratings over an extended time.

I too like the bk listing of both high output vs time AND low output vs time. Wish they would all do that.

Not too many numbers needed when you see a Keystone next to an Equinox! A tiny stove simply will not out perform a huge stove! It's exhaust might be a little cleaner, but that does not make up for all the extra mass.

That seems to be a constant rant on this site. I disagree with it big time. Size does NOT mean as much as you guys think. Design has a lot more to do with it. All the fuel/heat on that big unit can very easily go right up the chimney instead of heat the room. I'm not saying that is the case in this particular comparison, I don't know the stoves. But I do dislike that constant rave of size is the big difference, it's not.

 

[webby3650]

That seems to be a constant rant on this site. I disagree with it big time. Size does NOT mean as much as you guys think. Design has a lot more to do with it. All the fuel/heat on that big unit can very easily go right up the chimney instead of heat the room. I'm not saying that is the case in this particular comparison, I don't know the stoves. But I do dislike that constant rave of size is the big difference, it's not.

Thats true with old smoke dragon stoves compared to new EPA stoves. A 2 cubic foot EPA stove can likely keep up with a house that needed a 3.5 cubic foot non-EPA stove. But this would not be the case with new stoves that have similar combustion systems. The 3.5' stove would blow the doors off of the 2' stove. It's the truth.

 

[BrianK]

That seems to be a constant rant on this site. I disagree with it big time. Size does NOT mean as much as you guys think. Design has a lot more to do with it. All the fuel/heat on that big unit can very easily go right up the chimney instead of heat the room.

...But I do dislike that constant rave of size is the big difference, it's not.

Could a smoke dragon of the 1970s with a 3.0cu ft firebox put out the same BTUs using the same amount of wood as a 3.0cu ft firebox EPA stove?

Does an early EPA stove with the same size firebox as today's EPA stoves put out the same BTUs using the same amount of wood?

Does a new hybrid stove with a smaller firebox but wringing out most of the conceptually available BTUs have a chance of putting out more BTUs than a less efficient EPA stove with a larger firebox using the same amount of wood?

I don't have any idea on the latter questions but independent objective testing results would certainly be an improvement in attempting to find the answers. Even if the EPA tests are far from perfect, at least its a starting point, and stove manufacturers could list the EPA stats and their own stats and if necessary explain why their own stats are more realistic.

 

[BrianK]

The 3.5' stove would blow the doors off of the 2' stove. It's the truth.

But how do we compare the 3.5 non CAT or CAT EPA stoves to these new 2.8 and 3.2 hybrid EPA stoves?

 

[BrotherBart]

I just wanna know when the EPA started dictating btu output or even thermal efficiency testing. Requires a calorific room and ain't cheap. The number ranges in the EPA stove list on their site is for "comparable" stoves and is over twenty years old.

The only thing the EPA gives a tinker's damn about is what particulates come out of the stack.

 

[webby3650]

But how do we compare the 3.5 non CAT or CAT EPA stoves to these new 2.8 and 3.2 hybrid EPA stoves?

We just rely on the EPA to tell us that it's better!

 

[DevilsBrew]

Is this a threat of yet another Union plug?

I kinda like these updates. I learn a lot from them.

 

[fox9988]

If the stove relies on electronics to operate, I'm not interested.

Cubic footage of a stove tells you how many btu it will hold. Burn times tell you how slow or fast it will release the btu's. If manufactures are going to list "btu" ratings, tell us how fast (min burn time) the stove will incinerate a load of wood. Max btu ratings are meaningless to most of us (how often do you burn at wide open throttle?). At my house, min btu is much more important than max btu. Tube vs Cat...do you burn at 3/4 throttle or at 1/4? The total output (btu's in the house at the same burn rate) of any two epa stoves of the same size, ran at similar btu outputs, are probably similar. Running any stove at wide open throttle, probably waists btu's up the stack. Manufacturers play the epa numbers, it's the only "standardized" playing field- How may people buy a Keystone expecting it to out heat an Equinox? How many buy a BK expecting 40 hr burns Nov-March? The same people that do exhaust work and tomatoes with the same Ginsu knife.

 

[BrianK]

If the stove relies on electronics to operate, I'm not interested.

The owner of Woodstock addressed this in a comment under the most recent blog post. See the area I bolded below:

Woodstock Soapstone Co. August 28, 2013 at 4:58 PM
All of the controls on this stove are manual – nothing electronic, and no power required. At one point we thought that we would need at least a small amount of power to achieve the emissions/efficiency profile we were after, but we’re there without adding any power.

Having said that, we are working on a “proof of concept” module that does need power. It doesn’t control the stove, but it gives real-time information on the performance of the stove (burn rate, BTU output, efficiency, emissions, time remaining to reload, effects of moisture content, etc.) We think/hope it will be ready to exhibit in November, but again it does not control the stove (though we would hope it might help to control the operator!). The device needs some power for the O2 sensor heater, an amplifier for strain gages, and a small pump.

The “proof of concept” module is a combination of known technologies (thermocouples, O2/CO sensors and strain gages) with some software and a GUI (graphic user interphase). I think our big contribution is getting a platform in the base of the stove that impinges on strain gages below the stove so that you can monitor the weight of the fuel load. When you put wood in the stove, you would know its weight, and you would be able to plot its consumption in pounds, BTU output, efficiency, and emissions both for an individual run and over time (weeks, months, or heating season).

Tom Morrissey
Woodstock Soapstone

 

[Tenn Dave]

For all of us excited about this new stove, don't let the naysayers dampen your enthusiasm.

 

[Huntindog1]

I dont think you can compare stoves that are of different firebox size. The Equinox is a 4.0 cu ft box.
So I would say this Steal Hybrid will be the highest BTU's to for its 3.2 cu ft fire box size.
Or we can just divide the max btu by the cubic feet of the fire box to get a more level playing field.

Max Btu's are great to measure but no one operates their stove at wide open all the time.

So the standard should be to have a Btu rating for like a 12 hour burn. Like Blaze King did.

I would say the hybrid stove is getting better numbers over just a Cat or just a Secondary Air Stove for maybe several reasons.
The fire is an always changing cycle how the stove deals with the changes in firebox is key. I think a hybrid stove with both technologies of a cat and a secondary air manifold is that with both technologies in one fire box the stove is equipped to burn more efficiently over a wider range of changes in burn cycle. Its like a recipe a little of this a little of that, the mix is important to get conditions just right for the most efficient burn.

At higher burn rates in the cycle having the two technologies most likely allows a cleaner burn at that point as the smoke is first getting cleaned up with a secondary air ignition of the smoke gases. But there is always a small amount of stuff that still gets by and thats where the cat comes in a for a second pass at cleaning up the exhaust to a higher level.

At lower Burn rates the secondary air manifold may not be firing off but the preheated secondary manifold air gets mixed with the smoke gases better this way like when you use a blender to mix your recipe better well we are mixing in air with the smoke to get better conditions so when it travels thru the cat things burn much more efficiently. The secondary air manifold is a large area stretching across the full width of the stove and has alot of area with holes drilled to let the preheated air disperse out in many different locations for a good mix. Just like in tube stoves some have more tubes to get a better mix and in European stoves they will create like a vortex circular motion to get a better mixing of the air and smoke.

So the hybrid technology I think is able to get better numbers and I think time will prove that out as we have seen with these hybrid type stoves.

 

[charly]

All I can say Brian,, in a few months you can tell everyone how your new stove is above your expectations and a great heater .. I'm thinking Woodstock will shine with this stove, especially how it's priced and with top and rear chimney pipe options.. Plus don't forget,,, a nice built in cook top... Very smart! I will say when I saw that stove in person,, she's a big girl!

 

[teutonicking]

I bet when you get up in the morning there will be more wood in the stove than was in it before you went to bed.

A fast breeder stove.

 

[charly]

A fast breeder stove.

The Rabbit Hybrid

 

[oldspark]

Thats true with old smoke dragon stoves compared to new EPA stoves. A 2 cubic foot EPA stove can likely keep up with a house that needed a 3.5 cubic foot non-EPA stove. But this would not be the case with new stoves that have similar combustion systems. The 3.5' stove would blow the doors off of the 2' stove. It's the truth.

No-I get into trouble when I post about this stuff so that is all I am going to say, no need to get the thread closed.

 

[charly]

I'm wondering if Woodstock is going to cover the cook top area with soapstone like they did with the Progress.. I think that would break up the metal stove look in a nice way... I'm also thinking that they could etch a nice design into the door frame with their new water jet .. Who knows what they're planning...I'm hoping they blow us out of the water on the final product.. I think that speaks Woodstock...

 

[Huntindog1]

I know one given they arent going to call it The Rabbit Hybrid.

I think they are using the Steal Hybrid to high light a new line of steel stoves. Nice Idea.

How about using the name Environator after the movie Terminator and Ralph Nader and the good crop of tomaters I got this year. Ok I'm Joking!

How about the Union Steal Hybrid? Then they can come out with a double soap stone version soap stoned lined and soap stone Panels added to the outside to increase the thermal mass of the stove, They could call it the Union Stone Hybrid.

The old Kent stoves had different soap stone panels you could add to the sides for a decorative look. You could order different colors if you changed your room decor.

 

[oldspark]

How about "this SOB is hot"

 

[charly]

I know one given they arent going to call it The Rabbit Hybrid

Wasn't serious about that

 

[teutonicking]

How about Advanced Hybrid?

 

[BrianK]

steel
stēl/
noun
noun: steel; plural noun: steels

1. 1.​
   a hard, strong, gray or bluish-gray alloy of iron with carbon and usually other elements, used extensively as a structural and fabricating material.
   • used as a symbol or embodiment of strength and firmness.
     "nerves of steel"
   • a rod of roughened steel on which knives are sharpened.

verb
verb: steel; 3rd person present: steels; past tense: steeled; past participle: steeled; gerund or present participle: steeling

1.​

mentally prepare (oneself) to do or face something difficult.
"I speak quickly, steeling myself for a mean reply"
synonyms: brace oneself, nerve oneself, summon (up) one's courage, screw up one's courage, gear oneself up, prepare oneself, get in the right frame of mind;More

steal
stēl/
verb
verb: steal; 3rd person present: steals; past tense: stole; gerund or present participle: stealing; past participle: stolen

1. 1.​
   take (another person's property) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it.
   "thieves stole her bicycle"

ste·le (st

l

, st

l)
n.
1. also ste·la (st

l

) pl. steles also ste·lae (-l

) An upright stone or slab with an inscribed or sculptured surface, used as a monument or as a commemorative tablet in the face of a building.
2. stele (st

l, st

l

) The central core of tissue in the stem or root of a vascular plant, consisting of the xylem and phloem together with supporting tissues.

 

[Machria]

Could a smoke dragon of the 1970s with a 3.0cu ft firebox put out the same BTUs using the same amount of wood as a 3.0cu ft firebox EPA stove?

Does an early EPA stove with the same size firebox as today's EPA stoves put out the same BTUs using the same amount of wood?

Does a new hybrid stove with a smaller firebox but wringing out most of the conceptually available BTUs have a chance of putting out more BTUs than a less efficient EPA stove with a larger firebox using the same amount of wood?

I don't have any idea on the latter questions but independent objective testing results would certainly be an improvement in attempting to find the answers. Even if the EPA tests are far from perfect, at least its a starting point, and stove manufacturers could list the EPA stats and their own stats and if necessary explain why their own stats are more realistic.

EXACTLY! And I don't understand why companies don't simply:
1. List the low and high burn rates per there own tests (BTU output VS time at high burn, and at low burn), like BK does on their website.
2. List EPA test #'s, along with their own explanation of why they might differ greatly from their own tests and/or real world results, and what they might mean.
3. List how many BUT's go up the stack. This should be easy enough to measure.

I just wanna know when the EPA started dictating btu output or even thermal efficiency testing. Requires a calorific room and ain't cheap. The number ranges in the EPA stove list on their site is for "comparable" stoves and is over twenty years old.

The only thing the EPA gives a tinker's damn about is what particulates come out of the stack.

I've been thinking about this for some time now (months). I'm not 100% sure a "calorific room" would be required. Why not just measure the BTU's going up the stack? If you know how many BTU's are in the firebox (weight and type of wood...), and you know how many BTU's went up the chimney, then you know what is left which went into the room. That may be what they are doing now.... ? But your right and it's important to repeat, what the EPA is most interested in really is the emmisions #'s. But do keep in mind, the emmisions #'s they are interested in do need to be related to the BTU output to some extent, otherwise there ratings would be comparing the output of a 18 wheeler truck exhaust hauliing 100,000 lbs of freight, to a 200 lb motor cylcle exhaust. Size/output must be figured into the equation.



"Proof of Concept" module!
I LOVE this idea! At least the part where they will install weight cells on the base of the stove so you can determine the amount of fuel put into the stove, and therefore the amount of remaining fuel at any time. GREAT idea!