woodstock steel hybrid not making heat

[uncle walt]

When did you clean the cat last?

about two weeks ago, will check it again this evening, thank's

 

[tarzan]

at 1/3 350 at 1/2 450-500, don't want to over fire the stove as it is steel not cast and this is its first season.. thank's

Glad you answered that. The Woodstock guys can now compare notes and tell you if that sounds right.

Steel stoves don't really need a break in period other than curing paint. It's ok to run it on up to 650'ish if you need the heat.

Without going back through the thread, are you using any fans to help distribute the heat?

 

[tarzan]

at 1/3 350 at 1/2 450-500, don't want to over fire the stove as it is steel not cast and this is its first season.. thank's

Glad you answered that. The Woodstock guys can now compare notes and tell you if that sounds right.

Steel stoves don't really need a break in period other than curing paint. It's ok to run it on up to 650'ish if you need the heat.

Without going back through the thread, are you using any fans to help distribute the heat?

 

[Woody Stover]

yes I am finding that out, the rep sent me some info about uninsulated basements and it stated that the heat loss through the exterior walls is close to 1 million btu's per day

I think you said more than 3/4 of the block in the basement was finished. I wouldn't think the loss through the remaining block would be that great.

The stove is 6" inch, confirmed with woodstock prior to purchase that the 8" double wall metalbestos pipe would not be an issue, they confirmed the setup is ok

OK, then how about a negative-pressure issue with the basement install, causing you to have to open the air more, and flushing heat up the flue? Have you tried opening a window down there slightly, to see if draft picks up? I don't know much about it, just taking a few pot shots, but others may chime in if this is a possibility.

checked various places on the wood with a two prong moisture meter, will confirm my findings... I use the same wood in the upstairs fireplace and seem to have no problem creating heat within the room, just throwing it out there

Did you get a chance to re-check several pieces of wood yet? They need to be at room temp, re-split right before testing, and prongs poked deep into the freshly-exposed face. Use a fairly big split for this procedure....a small one may give you a lower-than-average reading. It could be that your wood burns OK in the fireplace, where you are really putting the heat and air to it. But in the stove, where you want lower amounts of air moving through the stove to keep the heat in the house, the wood may be a little too damp to work optimally.

 

[Woody Stover]

Without going back through the thread, are you using any fans to help distribute the heat?

He said it barely heats up the basement space.

 

[tarzan]

Guess we should ask how big an area you are trying to heat?

I'm not completely sure of your temps at a given draft setting but from the temperatures you are seeing from the stove it is starting to sound more like you don't have enough stove and or insulation than a problem with draft or wood.

500 degrees is 500 degrees. At that point there's not a great deal of heat left to be had out of the stove.

 

[rdust]

500 degrees is 500 degrees. At that point there's not a great deal of heat left to be had out of the stove.

There is a little left, it's a steel stove it can live in the 700-800* range if it needs to be pushed. Hate to push it like that for long term health but you gotta do whatcha gotta do.

 

[tarzan]

There is a little left, it's a steel stove it can live in the 700-800* range if it needs to be pushed. Hate to push it like that for long term health but you gotta do whatcha gotta do.

That is true and something the OP should be made aware of. I guess I'm just pointing out that if it takes pushing the stove to that point to get some heat something would need to change.

 

[vasten]

I am still going with the moisture content of the wood. the IS claims to heat 2200 sq ft...with a 3.2 CU FT firebox, that is a big stove. Add in a

semi finished basement three and a half of the walls have R-19 and 5/8 rock,

Plus a fireplace upstairs providing some heat, I doubt there would be a Million BTU's lost a day in his scenario.

I stand 4-5 feet away from stove and should be getting blasted away by the heat,

I know that when my wood is not seasoned enough I might as well plug in a space heater for all the good the stove will do.

If you don't have a moisture meter to test the wood with, listen to it, does it hiss or sizzle, does the smoke smell bad or like Bacon (LOL)
Are your fires easy to light or do they take a long time for the stove to come up to temp.

Another thought would be to take your wood, and if you can split it, into several smaller pieces and burn those VS larger pieces IF the wood is not seasoned enough, the water will essentially boil out faster and you will start to feel more heat. If you still have the packing crate break some of it down and add in any unpainted sections and see if the heat out put increases.

As far as over firing the stove 650 is still in the safe range. I wouldn't worry about taking the stove gradually up to that temp.

 

[LocustBurner]

It ain't the stove.

 

[Highbeam]

Surface flue temps of 300-350F are high for a cat stove. Actually they would be high for my non-cat stove too.

Agree that 300-350 is high for a cat stove but this is a hybrid so at high burn rates we should see more non-cat type temperatures. Maybe your T6 noncat stove runs that cool but that is not standard. 230 to 475 is normal/best operation temperatures. My non-cat is running dirty unless surface flue temps are up above 250, and frequently run up to 450. I expect the IS is more efficient than a normal stove at all times and should typically run cooler.

http://www.condar.com/Stovepipe_Thermometers.html

I don't think that the 300-350 is out of line for someone trying to get high output on an IS.

 

[OhioBurner©]

Something is definitely not right. I have no idea about heating from the basement, I have a huge old pre-epa stove down there (probably larger than 3cuft) and even with enough radiant heat to get burned from 4-5 feet away it wont even make my whole basement comfy on a cold midwinter day. My basement is unfinished though.

But if your not even feeling the radiant heat I don't think it is about your layout, something is either amiss with the stove or venting, fuel, or your method of operating it.

10% I don't think is even possible in your location unless you have some special method to get it below ambient conditions. Describe how you dry your wood, and how you are measuring it... with very dry wood and great draft I think the first big notch (calling that 1/3 air) would be about my upper limit for a super hot fire with lots of secondaries, and probably 600+ stovetop. I can usually cruise close to that a couple notches less than the first big one. And for a full cat burn only 2-3 small notches open. Of course that will vary a lot based on draft and wood.

Steel is probably more durable than cast as far as running hot IMO, and the nice thing about steel (especially on the IS) is you could have it easily repaired if needed. But I wouldn't bat an eye getting stovetop up to 700 but I would very rarely need that much heat! Just where exactly are you measuring stovetop temp though? This could easily vary by a couple hundred degrees.

Can you take some pics that show your stove? And perhaps some running at your normal temperatures? Are you getting secondaries, and are they strong or just wispy?

 

[kennyp2339]

Dumb question, are you shutting the bypass after loading?

 

[begreen]

Agree that 300-350 is high for a cat stove but this is a hybrid so at high burn rates we should see more non-cat type temperatures. Maybe your T6 noncat stove runs that cool but that is not standard. 230 to 475 is normal/best operation temperatures. My non-cat is running dirty unless surface flue temps are up above 250, and frequently run up to 450. I expect the IS is more efficient than a normal stove at all times and should typically run cooler.

http://www.condar.com/Stovepipe_Thermometers.html

I don't think that the 300-350 is out of line for someone trying to get high output on an IS.

There have been many reports of 400-500F probe flue temps with non-cat stoves. It's pretty normal for the flue to run at about the same or 100F below stove surface temps. Your experience with the Heritage was an exception. Other Heritage owners have reported cooler flue temps. Running the 30NC hard while trying to heat a large shop area up 20+ degrees is atypical and not representative of average home use. Most folks report the 30NC being quite efficient with lower flue temps. If you don't want it to run dirty, switch to double-wall pipe. That long run of single wall sounds like it is cooling the flue gases too much. FWIW, our flue is normally cleaned every other year and gets a very modest accumulation in its 20ft during that time.

 

[Highbeam]

There have been multiple reports of 400-500F probe flue temps with non-cat stoves. It's pretty normal for the flue to run at about the same or 100F below stove surface temps. Your experience with the Heritage was an exception.

With the heritage and now with the NC30. Both run 800 degree internal flue temps. Non-cats waste a lot of heat up the flue.

I suspect what you've seen is people confusing "flue temps" with internal flue gas temps. Not too often are people specific enough about this and as we know, the surface temp is half of the internal temperature.

I expect the IS to act more like a cat stove for most users most of the time with regards to flue temps. 400 internal temp is not out of line at all for a hybrid.

 

[begreen]

Your results do not agree with most other reports. There is no confusion. The question of surface vs probe is usually asked to corroborate temps.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/30-nc-concerns.148607/page-4#post-2052680

 

[JA600L]

I have run the Ideal Steel for almost two heating seasons now. I will explain what I do and see if it helps. I also heat from the basement. I use a cat probe to give me more information.

So, I load the stove and set the air to 100% open. The wood gets involved and the box is full of flames. When the probe gets above 500 I close the bypass. I leave the air at 100% until my stove top hits 300. Then I close it to 3/4 open and walk away for 5 minutes or so. I come back and the wood is still involved. I then close it to 1/3 and leave it there for 5 minutes. Then I set my desired burn rate.

If you want a good hot fire, you need to build up the firebox temperature. Keep the air control around 3/4 until you are comfortable and then bring it down. Once it is good and hot inside close it down. This boosts the draft, builds the stove temperature, and involves the wood so that the cat can do its thing. I then close it the whole way. The cat will glow red and it will throw a lot of heat.
Later in the burn I give it a bit more air.

 

[uncle walt]

Glad you answered that. The Woodstock guys can now compare notes and tell you if that sounds right.

Steel stoves don't really need a break in period other than curing paint. It's ok to run it on up to 650'ish if you need the heat.

Without going back through the thread, are you using any fans to help distribute the heat?

at this time no, had asked about putting a low volume fan behind the stove to encourage the what into the living space as I was concerned the masonry surround may be absorbing it and transferring it to the outside, not sure if that is convention, convection, absorption or conduction, regardless the block is cold, grabbing the heat and expelling it to the outside. Rep suggested not so much behind the stove but some corner fans in the door jambs may help

Just checked again, pipe temp 350, air at 1/2, and stove top is just over 600, burning some oak, maple and locust,

Thank's

 

[Deano31]

at this time no, had asked about putting a low volume fan behind the stove to encourage the what into the living space as I was concerned the masonry surround may be absorbing it and transferring it to the outside, not sure if that is convention, convection, absorption or conduction, regardless the block is cold, grabbing the heat and expelling it to the outside. Rep suggested not so much behind the stove but some corner fans in the door jambs may help

Just checked again, pipe temp 350, air at 1/2, and stove top is just over 600, burning some oak, maple and locust,

Thank's

I know everyone has a different set up but I don't understand why you have to have your air half open to get those temps I get those results with my stove around the 3rd small notch at air halfway I think I would over fire my stove

 

[uncle walt]

I think you said more than 3/4 of the block in the basement was finished. I wouldn't think the loss through the remaining block would be that great.
OK, then how about a negative-pressure issue with the basement install, causing you to have to open the air more, and flushing heat up the flue? Have you tried opening a window down there slightly, to see if draft picks up? I don't know much about it, just taking a few pot shots, but others may chime in if this is a possibility.
Did you get a chance to re-check several pieces of wood yet? They need to be at room temp, re-split right before testing, and prongs poked deep into the freshly-exposed face. Use a fairly big split for this procedure....a small one may give you a lower-than-average reading. It could be that your wood burns OK in the fireplace, where you are really putting the heat and air to it. But in the stove, where you want lower amounts of air moving through the stove to keep the heat in the house, the wood may be a little too damp to work optimally.

both of your suggestions are very interesting possibilities, as I have tried to make the space tight to conserve energy and keep the heat in, will open a window and see about the draft, just received a plate damper for the single wall pipe, will get it installed at see if that helps

no, did not get a chance to re-check the wood, my last reading where obtained by stabbing in the ends of various pieces on the pile outdoors, will follow your suggested procedure and advise as to our results, appreciate your time and ideas, thank's

 

[begreen]

at this time no, had asked about putting a low volume fan behind the stove to encourage the what into the living space as I was concerned the masonry surround may be absorbing it and transferring it to the outside, not sure if that is convention, convection, absorption or conduction, regardless the block is cold, grabbing the heat and expelling it to the outside. Rep suggested not so much behind the stove but some corner fans in the door jambs may help

Just checked again, pipe temp 350, air at 1/2, and stove top is just over 600, burning some oak, maple and locust,

Thank's

Worth a try. A convective setup or stove may work better in this circumstance.

 

[JA600L]

Worth a try. A convective setup or stove may work better in this circumstance.

Maybe I am way off here, but I have better luck heating from my basement with a radiant stove. It warms the basement up better and then allows the heat to go upstairs. Then as the stove cools, the heated objects in the room stay warm longer. This helps get the heat upstairs quicker on a reload.

 

[begreen]

Every installation is different. There are a lot of factors involved that govern how well heat is distributed, how well the space is insulated and how well it gets upstairs. Several folks have reported success with a combo of both in one stove as with say the Englander 30NC.

 

[JA600L]

Every installation is different. There are a lot of factors involved that govern how well heat is distributed, how well the space is insulated and how well it gets upstairs. Several folks have reported success with a combo of both in one stove as with say the Englander 30NC.

He's got both to some degree.