Woodstock is coming out with another new stove!
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Can't wait to see the report, Highbeam.
I hope it works out for you. That stove has recently been put on my short list.
I hope it works out for you. That stove has recently been put on my short list.
I'm looking for a gap in their lineup that would be filled by a new stove. They just came out with a bigger stove...maybe a non-cat?
I'm wondering if Woodstock's new stove is going to be the no frills model they mentioned. With the economy the way it is, well maybe this will be a good time for that kind of stove .
If they want to win that contest its going to have to be something different and special. Maybe some kind of soapstone box stove like I heard about last year?
Don't worry, we are for real. I'm sold on cat tech and I expect even better experience with a cat/t-stat combo.
Hmmm... Now if one were about to take delivery on a PH, would it be wise to wait and see what is in store here?
Not unless you want to wait another year. The PH teased us for a long time before it finally was tested, certified and manufactured.
Right, I have a hard time believing that the stove will be available before the end of this heating season. No matter what it is, it is best to plan for the stove to be available for the 2013/2014 burning season.
The PE TrueNorth fits that mold, right? What was/is the firebox size of the Black Bear?
They're very different animals. TN19 has a traditional square firebox, max wood length about 18". The F118 is a box stove that can handle a 24" split. The original F118 had the classic cigar burn type of fire, like the 602. If Woodstock were to try to make a clean burning, catalytic box stove, the engineering would be interesting.
Ah, I thought the TN19 had a different shaped firebox that was more like the F118.
I'll be taking a pass this time around . . . I camped last time . . . I suspect there wouldn't be too many local campgrounds open in December . . . and I don't really have any winter camping gear.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
A front loader, rear vent would be great. If/when I ever replace the Encore a Woodstock front loader would make the list.
Slow1, I'm surprised you don't have that Progress installed yet.
We haven't seen posts from you for quite some time now. Glad to see you are back.
After reading the PDF I see a big problem...
The problem as I see this, is the industry is self-destructing itself with the catalytic vs non-cat MFG. The Cat camp are pushing EPA to lower the emission standard below 2 gh/hr. That's well & fine and it can be done. The Cat combustors MFG of course will benefit the most.
If it were to happen, the few all cat mfg would of course immediately benefit. However, since the cost of a standard cat stove is significantly higher than a non-cat; with a reduced MFG footprint the cost of an average stove will climb dramatically. The remaining mfg's will have 2 choices, get out of the business or scramble to design cat stoves. Which means that no matter what, the cost of cat stoves are going to stay high for the next 5 years the MFG's are trying to recoup their development investments.
It's fine to go from 7.6 g/hr to 4.5 g/hr. Eventually, as technology develops it should go to 2 g/hr or less. Going lower will mean many medium to small MFG (insert names here.....) will not be able to weather the storm. The average budget conscious consumer (ie. Englander, USSC, Vogelzang) will not be able to afford this new technology and will either keep their old smoke dragons or move to gas or something else. China in the meantime will no doubt will be able to come with a cheaper alternative.
'Real Life' difference between 4.5 g/hr to below 2 g/hr is minimal. Wood burning is a minuscule part of our daily pollution. While the industry is fighting over 'less than impactful' numbers, other pollution emitting industries are giving a free ride.
Stupid...
The problem as I see this, is the industry is self-destructing itself with the catalytic vs non-cat MFG. The Cat camp are pushing EPA to lower the emission standard below 2 gh/hr. That's well & fine and it can be done. The Cat combustors MFG of course will benefit the most.
If it were to happen, the few all cat mfg would of course immediately benefit. However, since the cost of a standard cat stove is significantly higher than a non-cat; with a reduced MFG footprint the cost of an average stove will climb dramatically. The remaining mfg's will have 2 choices, get out of the business or scramble to design cat stoves. Which means that no matter what, the cost of cat stoves are going to stay high for the next 5 years the MFG's are trying to recoup their development investments.
It's fine to go from 7.6 g/hr to 4.5 g/hr. Eventually, as technology develops it should go to 2 g/hr or less. Going lower will mean many medium to small MFG (insert names here.....) will not be able to weather the storm. The average budget conscious consumer (ie. Englander, USSC, Vogelzang) will not be able to afford this new technology and will either keep their old smoke dragons or move to gas or something else. China in the meantime will no doubt will be able to come with a cheaper alternative.
'Real Life' difference between 4.5 g/hr to below 2 g/hr is minimal. Wood burning is a minuscule part of our daily pollution. While the industry is fighting over 'less than impactful' numbers, other pollution emitting industries are giving a free ride.
Stupid...
I'm not too sure about this. Although it is true the emissions will go down and, of course, the costs of new stoves will continue to rise, there will still be a market for the types of stoves that are produced today. I do not see companies and stoves like the Englander going out of business at all. There are still folks who can not afford other stoves and will still gravitate to the cheaper stoves. But progress is progress and it is good to continue to get better and better with less pollution.
At 1.63gms/hr for the 30NC, Englander seems to have figured out how to achieve reliable, clean burning in an inexpensive large stove using current non-cat technology. I've always been impressed by that.
The point made is if EPA is convince the emissions must be below 2 g/hrs with promulgation 2013 and final in 2014 a whole lot of mfg will be in a lot of pain with little gained.
I agree with Fyrebug to an extent.
The emissions testing is kind of pointless and seems like it can bee fudged. If I remember correctly, there was a graph that Woodstock released that did not seem entirely accurate, but was used to show how low the Progress Hybrid's emissions were. From a buyers perspective, it seems to be just another number that can be used to confuse buyers.
The emissions testing is kind of pointless and seems like it can bee fudged. If I remember correctly, there was a graph that Woodstock released that did not seem entirely accurate, but was used to show how low the Progress Hybrid's emissions were. From a buyers perspective, it seems to be just another number that can be used to confuse buyers.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I think you're forgetting that most/all non-cat stove manufacturers were once cat stove manufacturers. These manufacturers got away from manufacturing cat stoves because of the user support headaches generated by users who cannot follow a few simple instructions. The few cat stove manufacturers who remain are serving a boutique market... nut jobs on hearth.com who want to heat their house 24/7 with a woodstove. The vast majority of woodstove sales are to folks who want to look at a pretty fire one or two evenings a week, and no large volume stove manufacturer can ignore that market.
?? Cats are a fairly recent blip in the history of stoves. Where were the Morso, Travis Industries, Regency, PE, Quadrafire, SBI, Napoleon, etc. cat stoves? Even Jotul only got into cats as sideline to get EPA approval. In the Pac NW, where there is a lot of logging and a lot of stove companies resulting, many are used for 24/7 non-cat heating. BK being the exception rather than the rule.
Ashful
Minister of Fire
I dunno begreen... this is what I was told:
In the early 1990's, when the EPA reg's first hit, I was told most stove manufacturers were forced to retrofit cat's to their designs to meet the reg's. After a few years of building cat stoves, most of them discovered and adopted non-cat technologies, to meet the same reg's with a more user-forgiving system.
Now, keep in mind, I got this history from a tech at Jotul. Maybe when he said "most stove manufacturers", he was being too general. We know it's what Jotul did during that time period. Who else?
In the early 1990's, when the EPA reg's first hit, I was told most stove manufacturers were forced to retrofit cat's to their designs to meet the reg's. After a few years of building cat stoves, most of them discovered and adopted non-cat technologies, to meet the same reg's with a more user-forgiving system.
Now, keep in mind, I got this history from a tech at Jotul. Maybe when he said "most stove manufacturers", he was being too general. We know it's what Jotul did during that time period. Who else?
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