Wood Stove For 100 Year Old Farmouse Advise Request

[bholler]

Here is the house floor plan. Doors at middle of front porch and side porch.

That layout looks like it would be pretty easy to heat. And 10' ceilings aren't to bad. I wouldn't even consider ductwork

 

[byQ]

If it was my house I would build a 2nd insulated outer wall around the house. The house is simple it wouldn't be that hard. It wouldn't take much to heat it (or cool it) after that.

 

[begreen]

Here is the house floor plan. Doors at middle of front porch and side porch.

Is there a possibility of increasing the opening to the kitchen to about 6ft? If so, keeping those two rooms toasty should be reasonable. The bedroom and bathroom will be a bit cooler in a power outage, but not intolerable if the kitchen is around 70º. If you can focus on insulation, sealing leaks and storm windows then heating with a stove or insert should be possible. I am thinking the Buck 261 might work.

Note that the stove industry is in transition and some stoves may not be available next spring due to changing regulations.

 

[begreen]

That layout looks like it would be pretty easy to heat. And 10' ceilings aren't to bad. I wouldn't even consider ductwork

A ducted furnace on a single-story setup like this would be ineffective without blower assistance.

 

[Grizzerbear]

I would for sure insulate the house. I had a old 1910s 1200sqft house that had been added on to at one time. It was drafty as can be. Decided to tear drywall out of original end of house and reinsulate. Hell it was old shredded newspaper in the bottom foot of walls that had settled. I put batts in walls and put blown in insulation in attic, i replaced a leaky sliding door and some air sealing. After that i could have heated the place with a candle. If you are gunna live there long term a little money ahead now on insulating before buying a stove would make you happier with stove choice i would think.

 

[bholler]

A ducted furnace on a single-story setup like this would be ineffective without blower assistance.

Agreed

 

[marsofold]

My plan to insulate the house is: 1st attic floor insulation, 2nd underpinning (skirting) around house crawl space perimeter, 3rd large thick room rugs, 4th new double pane windows. Not going to do wall insulation. The inside walls and ceilings are parallel boards circa 1919 and look very antiquish. The outside is wood clapboard. I really don't want to re-build the whole house. For aesthetic reasons my preference on how heat the house would be to have a fireplace insert in the living room do all of the work. But because the fireplace is a shallow coal one, that's just not practical. The bathroom and kitchen rear walls have the plumbing, which gets first priority on the minimum heat level. Originally the house had a wood cookstove also helping with the heat. The ceiling pipe cap for it is still there and we found the rusty old cookstove in the barn. My next preference would be to use an outdoor wood forced air furnace, but the power requirement for the fan is too high (600 watts). While they make hydrionic versions of this, lotsa people complain about the designs leaking water after 10 years or so. For my third preference, I'd like to have a wide glass window stove in the living room with a creative way to share the heat with the bedroom on the other side of the wall and the kitchen, which would only be 9 feet away from the stove. Maybe if the transom windows were removed the ceiling heat would spread sideways enough to keep the other two rooms tolerable. Absolute last choice would be to build an outdoor batch-type rocket stove ten feet from the house with hydrionic antifreeze-water flow to a pair of well-insulated 55 gallon drum reservoirs feeding large radiators in the three main rooms. That would only require about an 80 watt pump, doable with solar. Plus I could burn greener wetter logs and not worry about creosote burning the house down, since it would be mostly made of brick and not attached to the house. But the radiators would be large and expensive. The stove idea seems most practical if the heat could be trusted to go sideways. In the mountains of West Virginia, -9F winter temps threaten. What should I do?

 

[bholler]

My plan to insulate the house is: 1st attic floor insulation, 2nd underpinning (skirting) around house crawl space perimeter, 3rd large thick room rugs, 4th new double pane windows. Not going to do wall insulation. The inside walls and ceilings are parallel boards circa 1919 and look very antiquish. The outside is wood clapboard. I really don't want to re-build the whole house. For aesthetic reasons my preference on how heat the house would be to have a fireplace insert in the living room do all of the work. But because the fireplace is a shallow coal one, that's just not practical. The bathroom and kitchen rear walls have the plumbing, which gets first priority on the minimum heat level. Originally the house had a wood cookstove also helping with the heat. The ceiling pipe cap for it is still there and we found the rusty old cookstove in the barn. My next preference would be to use an outdoor wood forced air furnace, but the power requirement for the fan is too high (600 watts). While they make hydrionic versions of this, lotsa people complain about the designs leaking water after 10 years or so. For my third preference, I'd like to have a wide glass window stove in the living room with a creative way to share the heat with the bedroom on the other side of the wall and the kitchen, which would only be 9 feet away from the stove. Maybe if the transom windows were removed the ceiling heat would spread sideways enough to keep the other two rooms tolerable. Absolute last choice would be to build an outdoor batch-type rocket stove ten feet from the house with hydrionic antifreeze-water flow to a pair of well-insulated 55 gallon drum reservoirs feeding large radiators in the three main rooms. That would only require about an 80 watt pump, doable with solar. Plus I could burn greener wetter logs and not worry about creosote burning the house down, since it would be mostly made of brick and not attached to the house. But the radiators would be large and expensive. The stove idea seems most practical if the heat could be trusted to go sideways. In the mountains of West Virginia, -9F winter temps threaten. What should I do?

Just get a large stove in the 3 cubic foot range. Untill you get the house sealed up better you may need supplementary heat. I would recommend a direct vented propane heater in the kitchen area. Which would also work later so you can go away without freezing pipes. You are really making this allot more complicated than it needs to be.

I have spend enough time in the wv mountains to know that yes it can get that cold. But really it is not that common at all.

 

[begreen]

I agree with the plan up to a point. The heating is being overthought. I would strongly suggest considering blowing in insulation in the walls in addition to the attic insulation. After that + better windows, the place will not be that hard to heat. This is not a large house.

 

[marsofold]

OK. Still sticking to my posted insulation plan. At another forum for old houses lotsa people recommend against blown-in insulation for walls due to moisture infiltrating it and creating mold issues. The direct vent propane heater in the kitchen I was going to do anyway, its just that there is no certainty that a propane truck can make it up here in winter, so I'd have to go with 1000 gallon tanks filled no later than Thanksgiving. So I guess I'll default to something like an Englander 30-NCH.

 

[begreen]

OK. Still sticking to my posted insulation plan. At another forum for old houses lotsa people recommend against blown-in insulation for walls due to moisture infiltrating it and creating mold issues. The direct vent propane heater in the kitchen I was going to do anyway, its just that there is no certainty that a propane truck can make it up here in winter, so I'd have to go with 1000 gallon tanks filled no later than Thanksgiving. So I guess I'll default to something like an Englander 30-NCH.

And how would the 30-NC be vented? This is a top vent stove. Will it fit in the fireplace? With proper insulation the kitchen propane heat would be supplemental and back up. It is not primary heat so a 1000 gal tank is not necessary. Seriously, you are overthinking this.

FWIW, we've had blown in insulation in a section of our walls (old farmhouse) without issue.

 

[MTY]

If you had ever been in a structure fire, you would sheetrock the walls. Not doing so places everyone living there in danger. That place more likely than not is baloon construction and is built from well seasoned kindling. Until I read the comment about not insulating the walls, I assumed anyone walking into this place would recognize the danger of sleeping in a tinderbox.

 

[Poindexter]

A couple ideas, i don't disagree with anything you have so far.

1. What is your cooking fuel and why not a wood fired cookstove? That puts your heat near your water pipes. If the electric goes off and the propane man can't deliver you can still have warm food.

Get a ton or two of coal delivered for the existing fireplaces, or put in a tiny tiny coal burner. When the wood cookstove can't keep up burn a little coal. Maybe a kerosene heater or two?

2. Earlier today when I was at work I flew through at 700 miles per hour I thought someone, probably @begreen , pointed out that if you put in an adequate heater now and then insulate you will have too big a heater after that. get that place insulated this summer. there is a lot to be said for putting a bunch of blue foam on t he outside and then new siding over that. I get the vintage look inside.

Looks like a nice place.

3. if you are going to live there winter 2020/2021 I would counsel you drop and split 4 cords of pine on arrival feb 2020. Split it big but have it split, stacked off the ground and top covered by 3-17-2020. That is going to be all you got in September. If that isn't enough BTUs to suit you drop 5 or 6 cords. Then drop another 4-6 cords of oak, hickory and hard maple. Get that split medium, stacked off the ground and top covered ASAP, then insulate the building by 8-31-2020. The hardwood won't be ready to burn until 2022, but it will be in the pipeline.

Summer 2021 put up another 4-6 cords each of pine and hardwood. You will be burning pine only, again, winter of 2021/2022.

Summer 2022 put up another 4-6 cords each of pine and hardwood.

Winter of 2022/2023 you will have 4-6 cords of pine, and 4-6 cords of two year seasoned hardwood ready to burn. A bit of learning curve there. You and your wife won't be used to cooking on hardwood coals, but I doubt you will cuss me.

You are probably going to want something like 20-30 cords stacked and seasoning at any given time. You will still have 39 "other"acres available for horses and vegetable garden and stuff if you stake out an entire acre for the wood. You want it kinda near the house so you an get it to the stove when you are old and arthritic, but not so visible that your wife grouses about it all the time.

I personally would not fool with a pipeline that big and try to stack every cord all criss-cross and straight like a pilgrim. You are going to need to handle volume in a time efficient way. Some kind of racks so you can just fill the rack and not screw around is going to be worth MONEY by about cord number three of thirty.

 

[Poindexter]

I have been thinking about some of the homes I visit for my day job for a few minutes. If you have reasonable insulation on the walls and floor and ceiling and can put up with shrink wrap on the windows in the winter you can probably meet +/- 80 % f your BTU needs with a mid to high end wood cookstove in 1000sqft and just burn a bit of kerosene or oil in the deepest depth of winter.

No matter what your heat source is, good insulation will save you money.

 

[bholler]

OK. Still sticking to my posted insulation plan. At another forum for old houses lotsa people recommend against blown-in insulation for walls due to moisture infiltrating it and creating mold issues. The direct vent propane heater in the kitchen I was going to do anyway, its just that there is no certainty that a propane truck can make it up here in winter, so I'd have to go with 1000 gallon tanks filled no later than Thanksgiving. So I guess I'll default to something like an Englander 30-NCH.

You will read allot on old house sites much of it has very questionable merit. Much of it is motivated by the idea that everything was done better in older houses. What do those sites say about replacing your windows? Insulate the walls.

 

[marsofold]

And how would the 30-NC be vented? This is a top vent stove. Will it fit in the fireplace?

You are correct about the venting issue. Not planning to fit it within the fireplace, but in front of it spaced 18" out from a steel heat shield covering the fireplace opening. I'm now looking at a low height stove such as an Osburn Inspire 2000 (less than 24" high with the minimalist base), vented with an elbow and horizonal pipe afterward, routed through the steel heat shield and up the flue of the chimney. I don't yet know if the inside top height of the coal fireplace would allow for that. If not, my only options would be to vent the pipe through the wall above the fireplace with proper wall fittings and clearances. I'm not willing to make any more roof penetrations, so my absolute last choice is an outdoor furnace.

 

[bholler]

You are correct about the venting issue. Not planning to fit it within the fireplace, but in front of it spaced 18" out from a steel heat shield covering the fireplace opening. I'm now looking at a low height stove such as an Osburn Inspire 2000 (less than 24" high with the minimalist base), vented with an elbow and horizonal pipe afterward, routed through the steel heat shield and up the flue of the chimney. I don't yet know if the inside top height of the coal fireplace would allow for that. If not, my only options would be to vent the pipe through the wall above the fireplace with proper wall fittings and clearances. I'm not willing to make any more roof penetrations, so my absolute last choice is an outdoor furnace.

Why are you not willing to make roof penetrations? It is just a corregated metal roof.

 

[bholler]

I agree using the existing flue would be my choice the placement is good and the exterior structure looks pretty good. But it will need an insulated liner and that may not be possible.

 

[marsofold]

You will read allot on old house sites much of it has very questionable merit. Much of it is motivated by the idea that everything was done better in older houses. What do those sites say about replacing your windows? Insulate the walls.

At http://www.oldhouseweb.com/forums/ it is claimed that blown-in insulation on old homes gradually accumulates moisture to the degree of becoming wet enough that it degrades the insulative properties and increases possible mold issues. While the initial insulative gain is 15% overall, it goes down over time. Alternative forms of insulation are recommended, such a the blue rigid styrofoam panel type. For 15% gain at most, I'll just skip doing the walls. Attic floor, double pane windows, underpinning and large heavy floor rugs... OK.

What I really need to do is to experimentally perform a test of what I have now. On a cold day, pick a room, close all of the doors, then run three 1500 watt electric space heaters (with heavy duty extention cords to alternate breaker outlets) for 12 hours. That will get me 15,00 BTUs/hour in that room. Measure the rise in the room temperature above the outside temp. Then calculate the BTUs needed to keep the room at 70 degrees when it's -9F (worst case) outside. Repeat for each room, then total them up for the stove BTUs/hour needed as is. Putting insulation on the attic floor usually gets you 20% improvement, double pane windows 10%, and a large thick floor rug maybe 5%. So at least in theory the current situation could be easily improved by 35%. I can probably live with that.

 

[maple1]

At http://www.oldhouseweb.com/forums/ it is claimed that blown-in insulation on old homes gradually accumulates moisture to the degree of becoming wet enough that it degrades the insulative properties and increases possible mold issues. While the initial insulative gain is 15% overall, it goes down over time. Alternative forms of insulation are recommended, such a the blue rigid styrofoam panel type. For 15% gain at most, I'll just skip doing the walls. Attic floor, double pane windows, underpinning and large heavy floor rugs... OK.

What I really need to do is to experimentally perform a test of what I have now. On a cold day, pick a room, close all of the doors, then run three 1500 watt electric space heaters (with heavy duty extention cords to alternate breaker outlets) for 12 hours. That will get me 15,00 BTUs/hour in that room. Measure the rise in the room temperature above the outside temp. Then calculate the BTUs needed to keep the room at 70 degrees when it's -9F (worst case) outside. Repeat for each room, then total them up for the stove BTUs/hour needed as is. Putting insulation on the attic floor usually gets you 20% improvement, double pane windows 10%, and a large thick floor rug maybe 5%. So at least in theory the current situation could be easily improved by 35%. I can probably live with that.

That will yield pretty fuzzy results. If you do that test in a calm day, I suspect the heat loss will be 4x as much on a windy day. With your (lack of) insulation & air sealing situation.

Also you would want to air seal the attic when you insulate.

 

[bholler]

At http://www.oldhouseweb.com/forums/ it is claimed that blown-in insulation on old homes gradually accumulates moisture to the degree of becoming wet enough that it degrades the insulative properties and increases possible mold issues. While the initial insulative gain is 15% overall, it goes down over time. Alternative forms of insulation are recommended, such a the blue rigid styrofoam panel type. For 15% gain at most, I'll just skip doing the walls. Attic floor, double pane windows, underpinning and large heavy floor rugs... OK.

What I really need to do is to experimentally perform a test of what I have now. On a cold day, pick a room, close all of the doors, then run three 1500 watt electric space heaters (with heavy duty extention cords to alternate breaker outlets) for 12 hours. That will get me 15,00 BTUs/hour in that room. Measure the rise in the room temperature above the outside temp. Then calculate the BTUs needed to keep the room at 70 degrees when it's -9F (worst case) outside. Repeat for each room, then total them up for the stove BTUs/hour needed as is. Putting insulation on the attic floor usually gets you 20% improvement, double pane windows 10%, and a large thick floor rug maybe 5%. So at least in theory the current situation could be easily improved by 35%. I can probably live with that.

I lived in a house with blown in cellulose with none of those problems for many years. Yes if you are water infiltration it will stay wet but that isn't a fault of the insulation. Just the safety gains in terms of fire would be enough for me to do it.

 

[SpaceBus]

I'm very jealous as I've spent many years of childhood in the mountains of VW. My father used to heat with just a Fisher all winter. It can be done. Focus on insulation and then you can get a 2. 0-3.0 Cuft wood stove. Coal is probably cheap and might make a good backup or even primary heat.

 

[Diabel]

you drop 5 or 6 cords. Then drop another 4-6 cords of oak, hickory and hard maple.

Summer 2021 put up another 4-6 cords each of pine and hardwood. You will be burning pine only, again, winter of 2021/2022.

Summer 2022 put up another 4-6 cords each of pine and hardwood.

Winter of 2022/2023 you will have 4-6 cords of pine, and 4-6 cords of two year seasoned hardwood ready to burn.

i am sore just from reading this!!

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Kinda late in the season to start a project this big. Would have been much better to move in in the spring ,but yea get a ton or 2 of coal for those coal stoves for this winter. And make sure your chimney is open. Otherwise coal can be deadly.

 

[bholler]

They are not coal stoves they are 100 yr old open coal fireplaces